I've turned into a NAG!

[Magpie]

We've come up with some new routines to keep my 8th grade son on track at school (he's gifted/LD and having issues staying organized). All of them require me to check, and re-check and keep checking. Every night, I'm right there with him while he does his homework. But it's not enough to say after he finishes, "Hurray, you're done! Now print out your work and put it in your backpack." I need to see him do it with my own two eyes.

Yesterday, for example, I discovered that he HAD in fact printed his work and put it in his backpack - but for some reason none of his graphs had printed out correctly! Did he notice? Nope, he'd just yanked it out of the printer and stuffed it in his pack without looking.

Everyone (teachers, psychologist) keeps telling me, "You can't give up! You've got to stay on him!"

Well, of course I won't give up. But I hate the sound of myself these days. I hate always riding the kid about one thing or another. I remind him of something, and he's all like, "Yeah, I KNOW!" and then I have to get on his case again for being disrespectful. But to be honest, I don't blame him. I'd be pretty cranky, too, if I had someone following me around all the time asking, "Did you do this? Did you do that? Show me what you've done!"

I've only just started and I'm already sick and tired of this routine.

Just really needed to vent, thanks...

 

[The Mystery Machine]

How does your son organize his stuff now? He has to come up with something or has to agree to the procedure for it to be effective. My youngest is also in 8th this yr.

Last yr my dd wrote all her assignments in her planner and what she planned on doing on that day as well. She was in counseling and came up with this with her counselor. (Yes it helps if "mom" isn't involved, even though I said similiar stuff.)

When she came home from school she would take out her planner and then write down assignment due dates in her calendar. The calendar also has appointments and any other thing she has planned on there as well. It stays on the fridge.

In this way she can quickly look to see what is due the next day or a test to study for. It really cut down the anxiety of getting things all jumbled up for her.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Vent Away!!!!!

I am beginning to deal with this kind of thing with my LD son....

I know that, no matter what, the objective has to be for him to do the best he can do, with support, but NOT somebody constantly standing over his shoulder practically doing if for him.

Like you, I am thinking, Hey, nobody needs a nagging person always looking over their shoulder...

Could you try the initial organization/reminder/checklist/etc. to get him started... and then back off, and then you review what he has done at the end????

Yeah, I know, it's like a broken record sometimes... "Stop and LOOK and double check that everything is correct....."

I have really been trying this approach "verbal remediation, back completely off, then review" for this year, and I actually think it is beginning to have some effect!

 

[olwyngdh]

I have a similar problem with my gifted DD8--problem is, getting the stuff done at home isn't as much a problem as getting the stuff done at school! I do nag, hound, revoke privileges etc, whatever it takes at home, but I don't know what to do about the fact that she daydreams in class rather than doing her journal, or spends so much time in research and group work in her gifted program that she doesn't get the workbook done. I am really frustrated. If you find a way to organize your son, *please* share! My husband told her that if she isn't doing her work in school by the first of the year, she is losing her dance classes, and that is going to be h e double hockey sticks around here!

 

[tlmdisney]

Wow this is a very timely post. I feel your pain we are going through this with our oldest DD12. It is so frustrating and what makes it worse is that the day can be going just great then we check to make sure she turned in the homework that we hounded her to do the night before, but for some reason won't take the time to even turn in.

 

[ols386]

We've come up with some new routines to keep my 8th grade son on track at school (he's gifted/LD and having issues staying organized). All of them require me to check, and re-check and keep checking. Every night, I'm right there with him while he does his homework. But it's not enough to say after he finishes, "Hurray, you're done! Now print out your work and put it in your backpack." I need to see him do it with my own two eyes.

Yesterday, for example, I discovered that he HAD in fact printed his work and put it in his backpack - but for some reason none of his graphs had printed out correctly! Did he notice? Nope, he'd just yanked it out of the printer and stuffed it in his pack without looking.

Everyone (teachers, psychologist) keeps telling me, "You can't give up! You've got to stay on him!"

Well, of course I won't give up. But I hate the sound of myself these days. I hate always riding the kid about one thing or another. I remind him of something, and he's all like, "Yeah, I KNOW!" and then I have to get on his case again for being disrespectful. But to be honest, I don't blame him. I'd be pretty cranky, too, if I had someone following me around all the time asking, "Did you do this? Did you do that? Show me what you've done!"

I've only just started and I'm already sick and tired of this routine.

Just really needed to vent, thanks...

Honest question, why are you required to do all that checking? What would happen if you didn't always check?

You mention that yesterday he printed his work and the graphs had printed out incorrectly. What would happen if he turns in the papers with the graphs incorrectly printed? Does he get kicked out of school, does he get a bad grade, does he get a second chance to correct the graphs? I'm only asking because if he is or becomes completely dependent on you checking everything, how does he learn to think for himself.

You said he is gifted/LD, so maybe there's something here that I'm missing. I'm just wondering.

I will say, it sounds like you are a very interested and concerned parent, and that's great!!

 

[Magpie]

How does your son organize his stuff now?

Based on some advice I got on this board, I made up sheets with his specific classes for the day listed and LOTS of room to write homework in.

The plan was to have him write down his homework and then get the teachers to initial it, to show that he's got it correct and complete. However, his teachers have all been just writing his homework down for him instead. I don't think any of them want to try to read his handwriting.

We also have a kitchen calendar, but I'm the one who writes on it. My son wouldn't be able to read his own writing, if he tried fitting it into those boxes, while standing up.

I have a similar problem with my gifted DD8--problem is, getting the stuff done at home isn't as much a problem as getting the stuff done at school! I do nag, hound, revoke privileges etc, whatever it takes at home, but I don't know what to do about the fact that she daydreams in class rather than doing her journal, or spends so much time in research and group work in her gifted program that she doesn't get the workbook done. I am really frustrated. If you find a way to organize your son, *please* share! My husband told her that if she isn't doing her work in school by the first of the year, she is losing her dance classes, and that is going to be h e double hockey sticks around here!

Luckily, he mostly works well in class... except for art class, where he's in trouble for not staying in his seat. He keeps getting up to go talk to other kids! I think his art teacher just isn't mean enough.

My son's main issue has been not bringing home forms (really important ones, too!), not delivering stuff back to school (like his signed IEP! ), and not turning in homework or finishing assignments. I was stuck for awhile, because I didn't have contact with the teachers, so I had no way to know if he was telling me the truth when he said he had "no homework".

You've got my sympathies, BTW! Part of my frustration comes from the fact that I've got similar learning issues as my son, and now everyone wants me to be organized for him. It's hard! I remember being just like your daughter in school - I spent class after class doodling in my notebook and ignoring the teacher.

FWIW, my mom threatened me with losing fun stuff, too. But the consequence for not paying attention in class was too far away, and it didn't work. When I was bored, I was bored RIGHT NOW. I wasn't thinking about my extra curricular classes, all I was thinking was, "I hate school and I don't want to learn this stuff." I'm terrible with long term consequences. I don't know if your daughter is any better at understanding them - a lot of kids aren't. If dance is the one thing she's good at, you might want to hang onto it.

My son's thing is music. It's the one subject he's always prepared for.

Honest question, why are you required to do all that checking? What would happen if you didn't always check?

You mention that yesterday he printed his work and the graphs had printed out incorrectly. What would happen if he turns in the papers with the graphs incorrectly printed? Does he get kicked out of school, does he get a bad grade, does he get a second chance to correct the graphs? I'm only asking because if he is or becomes completely dependent on you checking everything, how does he learn to think for himself.

You said he is gifted/LD, so maybe there's something here that I'm missing. I'm just wondering.

I will say, it sounds like you are a very interested and concerned parent, and that's great!!

Well... I'm trying to carry through with what his teachers and psychologist say he needs. He would get a bad grade if he turns in the work without the graphs. If it was my daughter who got that grade, she'd slap her forehead, say, "Doh!" and start checking her printouts. My son? He'd shrug and say, "See? I worked really hard and I got a crappy grade anyway. There's no point even trying!"

He's not seeing the logic right now, and somehow we have to get him experiencing success. He has to understand that his efforts actually mean something.

I had a huge argument with him on Sunday, because he told me that he got a C on a math project he'd worked really hard on. He's convinced he got a low grade because he didn't include enough illustrations. However, I noticed that he was supposed to turn in a rough draft. "Don't you think that brought your grade down?"

"No!"

"Why don't you ask the teacher why you got the grade you got?"

"Because it doesn't matter now."

"What about future assignments? If you know where you went wrong, you can do better on the next project."

"We're not going to be doing this assignment again!"

"Well, not this exact assignment, but maybe one that's like it."

He looks at me like I've lost my mind and says very slowly and clearly, "We're all done the Integers unit. There's not going to BE any more projects on Integers."

I was good. I didn't pound my head on the table.

I certainly don't want him completely dependent on me checking. I don't think my sanity can take it! But right now I don't see any way to get out of it.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Check once, at the end the day......

 

[ols386]

Well... I'm trying to carry through with what his teachers and psychologist say he needs. He would get a bad grade if he turns in the work without the graphs. If it was my daughter who got that grade, she'd slap her forehead, say, "Doh!" and start checking her printouts. My son? He'd shrug and say, "See? I worked really hard and I got a crappy grade anyway. There's no point even trying!"

He's not seeing the logic right now, and somehow we have to get him experiencing success. He has to understand that his efforts actually mean something.

I had a huge argument with him on Sunday, because he told me that he got a C on a math project he'd worked really hard on. He's convinced he got a low grade because he didn't include enough illustrations. However, I noticed that he was supposed to turn in a rough draft. "Don't you think that brought your grade down?"

"No!"

"Why don't you ask the teacher why you got the grade you got?"

"Because it doesn't matter now."

"What about future assignments? If you know where you went wrong, you can do better on the next project."

"We're not going to be doing this assignment again!"

"Well, not this exact assignment, but maybe one that's like it."

He looks at me like I've lost my mind and says very slowly and clearly, "We're all done the Integers unit. There's not going to BE any more projects on Integers."

I was good. I didn't pound my head on the table.

I certainly don't want him completely dependent on me checking. I don't think my sanity can take it! But right now I don't see any way to get out of it.

I can certainly sympathize with you. It must be very frustrating.

I asked that question because I checked, re-checked, etc. etc. all those things for my son back when he was in grade school, all the way up through 5th grade. After that, I stopped doing all the checking. I did still check, but not everything. He got a few bad grades here and there on some papers, but it wasn't too long before he started improving. I truly felt that he was becoming too dependent on always knowing that I was going to check everything, and point out things that were incorrect.

Mind you, he wasn't LD, so I'm sure that comes into play with your son. I certainly wouldn't suggest that you not do what his teacher and psychologist tell you to do..just sharing my own personal experience with you.

I do wish the best for you and your son. Hang in there!

 

[Magpie]

Check once, at the end the day......

I was doing that at the beginning of the year, and it wasn't enough. Things weren't making it out the front door with him the next morning.

I can certainly sympathize with you. It must be very frustrating.

I asked that question because I checked, re-checked, etc. etc. all those things for my son back when he was in grade school, all the way up through 5th grade. After that, I stopped doing all the checking. I did still check, but not everything. He got a few bad grades here and there on some papers, but it wasn't too long before he started improving. I truly felt that he was becoming too dependent on always knowing that I was going to check everything, and point out things that were incorrect.

Mind you, he wasn't LD, so I'm sure that comes into play with your son. I certainly wouldn't suggest that you not do what his teacher and psychologist tell you to do..just sharing my own personal experience with you.

I do wish the best for you and your son. Hang in there!

Thank you! The strangest part of all this to me, is that back in 5th grade my son was actually very organized. He remembered everything, and always turned his homework in on time. I used to call him my little Daytimer, because he was the one who'd remind me what I needed to pick up at the grocery store.

Things have just sort of been going gradually downhill since them. Even so, he's always managed to get decent grades. This is the first year he's really hit a wall.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Based on some advice I got on this board, I made up sheets with his specific classes for the day listed and LOTS of room to write homework in.

The plan was to have him write down his homework and then get the teachers to initial it, to show that he's got it correct and complete. However, his teachers have all been just writing his homework down for him instead. I don't think any of them want to try to read his handwriting.

We also have a kitchen calendar, but I'm the one who writes on it. My son wouldn't be able to read his own writing, if he tried fitting it into those boxes, while standing up.



Luckily, he mostly works well in class... except for art class, where he's in trouble for not staying in his seat. He keeps getting up to go talk to other kids! I think his art teacher just isn't mean enough.

My son's main issue has been not bringing home forms (really important ones, too!), not delivering stuff back to school (like his signed IEP! ), and not turning in homework or finishing assignments. I was stuck for awhile, because I didn't have contact with the teachers, so I had no way to know if he was telling me the truth when he said he had "no homework".

You've got my sympathies, BTW! Part of my frustration comes from the fact that I've got similar learning issues as my son, and now everyone wants me to be organized for him. It's hard! I remember being just like your daughter in school - I spent class after class doodling in my notebook and ignoring the teacher.

FWIW, my mom threatened me with losing fun stuff, too. But the consequence for not paying attention in class was too far away, and it didn't work. When I was bored, I was bored RIGHT NOW. I wasn't thinking about my extra curricular classes, all I was thinking was, "I hate school and I don't want to learn this stuff." I'm terrible with long term consequences. I don't know if your daughter is any better at understanding them - a lot of kids aren't. If dance is the one thing she's good at, you might want to hang onto it.

My son's thing is music. It's the one subject he's always prepared for.



Well... I'm trying to carry through with what his teachers and psychologist say he needs. He would get a bad grade if he turns in the work without the graphs. If it was my daughter who got that grade, she'd slap her forehead, say, "Doh!" and start checking her printouts. My son? He'd shrug and say, "See? I worked really hard and I got a crappy grade anyway. There's no point even trying!"

He's not seeing the logic right now, and somehow we have to get him experiencing success. He has to understand that his efforts actually mean something.

I had a huge argument with him on Sunday, because he told me that he got a C on a math project he'd worked really hard on. He's convinced he got a low grade because he didn't include enough illustrations. However, I noticed that he was supposed to turn in a rough draft. "Don't you think that brought your grade down?"

"No!"

"Why don't you ask the teacher why you got the grade you got?"

"Because it doesn't matter now."

"What about future assignments? If you know where you went wrong, you can do better on the next project."

"We're not going to be doing this assignment again!"

"Well, not this exact assignment, but maybe one that's like it."

He looks at me like I've lost my mind and says very slowly and clearly, "We're all done the Integers unit. There's not going to BE any more projects on Integers."

I was good. I didn't pound my head on the table.

I certainly don't want him completely dependent on me checking. I don't think my sanity can take it! But right now I don't see any way to get out of it.

You might want to sit with him and go over percentages with his grades. We did this with BOTH dd's.

It took awhile however they know what %age they have to get to maintain their grade.

Also he needs to make the connection of the incomplete assignment and what it did to his grade.

It can be done. It may kill you both but I we did it with both dd's.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

My kids aren't gifted or learning disabled, but I have two in middle school and we're having the same issues - and so are most of our friends with middle schoolers. I think it's the age and stage.

I have to "nag" somewhat, but I also feel that going forward, they NEED to get this straight themselves. So to that degree, I've backed off and DH and I have agreed to let them suffer the consequences at school if they don't get their work done.

DS got his first taste of a problem at school a few weeks ago when we got a call from the math teacher to tell us he hadn't turned in some homework assignments. Funny thing was, I knew he'd done them so I couldn't figure out why he hadn't turned them in. Turns out there were a few problems he wasn't sure how to do and he didn't want to call attention to himself by asking for help. (At Open House, teachers told us that fear of embarrassment is huge for this age group so I guess that helps explain it, but I'm not sure how not turning in assignments is going to help that. So much for understanding the mind of a 13 yo.) Ultimately he called way more attention to himself in the long run but at any rate, he was mortified and he doesn't want to go through something like that again so he's diligently working on his homework now and staying after for extra help, etc.

So not unlike when they're little, natural consequences can sometimes work wonders even when they're older.

 

[ols386]

I was doing that at the beginning of the year, and it wasn't enough. Things weren't making it out the front door with him the next morning.



Thank you! The strangest part of all this to me, is that back in 5th grade my son was actually very organized. He remembered everything, and always turned his homework in on time. I used to call him my little Daytimer, because he was the one who'd remind me what I needed to pick up at the grocery store.

Things have just sort of been going gradually downhill since them. Even so, he's always managed to get decent grades. This is the first year he's really hit a wall.

Hmmm. That is strange, isn't it. Does his psychologist have any idea why it's started to go down hill? Or if you don't want to share, that's ok. I would understand.

 

[Magpie]

Hmmm. That is strange, isn't it. Does his psychologist have any idea why it's started to go down hill? Or if you don't want to share, that's ok. I would understand.

The psychologist says that because he's very bright, he was able to cope with his learning disability when he was younger. He could compensate. Now, though, he's got more demands on him and he can't cope anymore.

That's what the psych says anyway... I don't know, myself. I kind of get the feeling that no one who is working with the boy right now really believes me when I tell them what he used to be like.

 

[Wishing on a star]

I was doing that at the beginning of the year, and it wasn't enough. Things weren't making it out the front door with him the next morning.

Thanks!
However, I suppose I still don't really understand???
If everything is completed and in his folders in his backpack, how is it not making it out the door the next morning?

I truly understand your frustration!!!!
I too have a son with some LD that seem to affect organization skills, Executive Function skills, etc... It can be tough!!!!

If my son were receptive, I would gladly sit down and go thru what is expected of him, help him to organize and prioritize, and get started... Checklists are often invaluable. And, I would gladly sit down again at the end of the evening and see that, to the best of his ability, he has completed, and proof-read/double checked, and placed in the proper folders/places in his backpack. (what happens once he arrives at school should be addressed at school)

At first, yes, when you go to do the final check, half of it might be un-done, or screwed up.... But, over time, when you do a cursory check and say, hey, great job...

I truly do not think that a mother looking over her teenaged son's shoulder 'nagging' is the answer.

I don't think that this will be an effective way to foster any improvement in these abilities. (Either backfires and he learns to depend on mama, or it begins to negatively effect your relationship with your son, or worse... both....)

I really would not let the school system direct me to be on top of my son to that extent. I just couldn't do it.

I do totally understand how you must feel as his mother!!!
And, wish for nothing but success!

 

[bumbershoot]

... but for some reason won't take the time to even turn in.

This is a general question about such things. I don't understand how kids can't turn things in? When I was in school, everyone got up and turned things in, or the teachers went up and down the rows to collect it from each person. How do kids (and I've heard this sort of thing many times on the Dis recently) not turn it in? I'm not talking mentally, there were times when I didn't WANT to turn it in, but physically, how are they not? What are they doing when the teacher asks for the homework? How are they avoiding it?

You might want to sit with him and go over percentages with his grades. We did this with BOTH dd's.

It took awhile however they know what %age they have to get to maintain their grade.

Also he needs to make the connection of the incomplete assignment and what it did to his grade.

I love that idea. It might really bring it home that doing only part of the work will give you only part of the grade.

Recently my son was doing a math website, and they kept a percentage of what you'd done right. For awhile, he was at 100%. Then he got one wrong, and it brought the percentage down, of course. He didn't like that. Kept on doing more problems, and it was taken a relatively long time to get it to move up even one percentage point. That frustrated him, but it also helped to *start* to explain percentages. Now he's only 6, but he could see how getting just one missed problem could bring down a percentage, and that it's going to take more than one right answer to help bring it back up to where it was. So I really think it might be good for your son to walk through that process with him, to show him that partial work = partial grade (and that's assuming he would have gotten 100% on the work done).

And honestly, I might just ignore the sassiness, and sit down with him and flat out tell him that he had to do it all, that learning from this will help him in the future, no matter what he was saying (about integer work, in your example). It seems like you want him to agree to you guys talking about this, but he might just not be able to have that right, because he NEEDS to hear it.

I kind of get the feeling that no one who is working with the boy right now really believes me when I tell them what he used to be like.

Oh that can't be a good feeling.

 

[Wishing on a star]

This is a general question about such things. I don't understand how kids can't turn things in? When I was in school, everyone got up and turned things in, or the teach

Ohhh, this is actually a quite common problem, and is a very real issue with any student with this kind of LD.

These days, starting at an ever younger age... These things are not verbally covered, prompted, encouraged, and spoon fed like they used to be. Assignments might simply be posted ... There are inboxes...

 

[NotUrsula]

This is a general question about such things. I don't understand how kids can't turn things in? When I was in school, everyone got up and turned things in, or the teachers went up and down the rows to collect it from each person. How do kids (and I've heard this sort of thing many times on the Dis recently) not turn it in? I'm not talking mentally, there were times when I didn't WANT to turn it in, but physically, how are they not? What are they doing when the teacher asks for the homework? How are they avoiding it?

Well, in DS' case, there are a couple of reasons. Mostly he forgets the papers in homeroom, and they are not allowed to go back there to get them during the day. His teachers usually allow a late paper to be turned in the following day with a 10% automatic dock, but if he's forgotten it in homeroom once, it's all too likely that he'll forget it the next day, too.

DS' LD issues tend to center around written comprehension, and instructions are a real problem for him, because so many teachers tend to write them using independent clauses. When that happens he almost always interprets that in a way that takes into account only the first step in the instructions, so anywhere from 30-75% of the assignment will be missing. When it is a big assignment that has sections to be turned in on different days, he just won't do anything but the first part unless we or his teacher specifically points out to him that he still has work to do.

PS: About this:

Thanks!
However, I suppose I still don't really understand???
If everything is completed and in his folders in his backpack, how is it not making it out the door the next morning?

In DS' case, it's usually because DH or I ask him something like, "Do you have your keys?" So he checks for his keys by taking everything out of the backpack, and only ends up putting half of it back. He's negligent about so MANY things that it is next to impossible to keep up; he has 10 classes.

As to why I don't just let him fail to teach him a lesson? I don't have the resources to flush away $6K that easily. He goes to private school, and we can't afford the grand gesture of letting him fail and repeat the grade.

 

[Wishing on a star]

And honestly, I might just ...... sit down with him and flat out tell him that he had to do it all, that learning from this will help him in the future, no matter what he was saying ...... It seems like you want him to agree to you guys talking about this, but he might just not be able to have that right, because he NEEDS to hear it.

You just really nailed it!!!!!
In fact, you just nailed TWO things.

1. First, schoolwork is just NON-negotiable.
You can't reason and 'negotiate' with a kid with a deficit or flaw in their thought process!!!!!
Been there done that MANY times with my son.

2. See the bolded above.. "because he NEEDS to hear it".
Especially with my son, his LD is known to include the factor that he deals with things auditorily, and has visual processing deficits. He is just not gonna get many things until they are verbalized, very simply and directly, several times.

Can't tell you how many times I have responded to my son's occasional negative 'attitude' about schoolwork with... " It is NOT going away... You HAVE to do this... so put a smile on your face and just do it..."

Yes...that simple. (LOVE the Nike slogan!!!! )

 

[Wishing on a star]

Hey, it sounds like there are some real similarities with our two sons...
The visual-written thing...
The Multi-part/stage complex assignments... ( the big picture )

Lot's of verbal remediation ( going over these things verbally/auditorily ) around here.