Is there such a thing as a non-evangelical Christian church?

[my4kids]

I'm in a hurry...will fill this out later, but for the OP's question:

I'm an ordained Presbyterian Church (USA) minister. I serve as an Associate Executive Presbyter, which means I'm in the office overseeing about 90 of our churches. Our denomination currently features the latest edition of a longrunning series of major doctrinal splits (we tend to go through these about every 30 years or so). Some of us would be more "liberal"--i.e. inclusivity, diversity and being welcoming is important to us, while others are what are self-termed "confessing". The debate at the moment is raging over homosexuality--ordination and relationships.

But in almost any regions you can find both "more light" Presbyterian Churches and "Confessing" Churches. We don't come all in one stripe. Thank God. If you're interested in PC(USA) or in one of the other "mainlines" (Methodist, Episcopal, Lutheran, American Baptist, United Church of Christ) p.m. me with your location, and I could help you be in touch with denominational folks who could steer you towards one of their congregations which might be a match.

Denominationally, you would find the most "liberal" and least doctrinal would be Unitarian Universalist, or Friends (Quakers)....in particular from the Friends General Conference branch of Quakers. I have friends who are both Jewish and Quaker, and do not find a conflict between the two. Both of these focus on Universal principles of humanitarian values, and a core belief in an Inner Light or Guiding Force. There would be much divergence in how this is experienced and articulated.

Among the mainlines, The United Church of Christ (UCC) and Episcopal would generally be more open and welcoming, and often focused more on social justice than on an agenda that would be "fundamentalist/evangelical." This would vary somewhat by congregation and by region of the country.

Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans and American Baptists all have congregations which are more inclusive and ecumenical (concerned about interfaith issues), and ones which are more "evangelical." You might be wildly happy in one, and miserable in the one 5 miles down the road.

I personally could not be Roman or Orthodox Catholic because of the barring of women from ordained leadership, but many people find a vibrant spirituality in the structure, while preserving their own private beliefs. Catholicism is the most restrictive regarding who is and is not welcome at the Communion Table.

I've got a few friends who are rabbis, and they tell me the same cultural and theological struggles are going on in their brands, with Reformed Judaism, of course, being more open than Conservative or Orthodox.

If there's any other info you might need in trying to find a few congregations to try out in your area, give a holler. The big key is to be clear that you're visiting and trying out various options, rather than signing on the dotted line too soon. If they invite you to teach Sunday School and serve on the property committee the 3rd time you visit, run like hell the other direction.

All are welcome. But since Catholics believe that the Eucharist is our Spiritual Food, and the Holy Spirit is indeed present in the host, and not just a symbol of the last Supper as some protestant churches believe, we just ask that you too believe this before you actually receive communion. All are welcome to Mass everyday of their lives even if they do not believe this, they just do not receive the Eucarist at the Mass if they do not believe it. i see many at Mass every Sunday who choose not to receive the Eucharist for whatever reason, and that is AOK with everyone. We are happy they join us for the Mass, and everyone is welcome to be there.

 

[momof2inPA]

OP- I vote Lutheran or Episcopalian. Episcopalians have some really beautiful churches, too.

 

[dzorn]

I'm Lutheran Missouri Synod. Yes we are Evangelical every Christian demoniation is, but I don't think we are too over the top. Every demoniation haves churches that push spreading the gospel more that other chruches within the same demoniation. Just make sure the demoniation you try truly shares your beliefs.

Denise

 

[FreshTressa]

I'm Lutheran Missouri Synod. Yes we are Evangelical every Christian demoniation is, but I don't think we are too over the top. Every demoniation haves churches that push spreading the gospel more that other chruches within the same demoniation. Just make sure the demoniation you try truly shares your beliefs.

Denise

It is never going to be possible to find a church that shares my beliefs!

 

[JennyMominRI]

A quick digression back to people who died before the crucifiction. I believe that people who lived before Christ's death would be saved by believing in the sacrifice to come (i.e. trusting that that gift would be there). That's pretty well supported in the Old Testament..

A.

Jews only made up a small potion of the OT peoples and Jews did not believe there was a *sacrifice yet too come*...Jews before Jesus were not waiting for a savior....Jews of then and now had no concept of *salvation* at all ..And what about the vast majority of Non-Jews that lived in old times

 

[LindsayDunn228]

Thank you all for your explanations. Unfortunately, nothing has been cleared up for me. I am still as confused as ever. Not that it matters since I know exactly where I belong.

I am truly not flaming you, just curious. You seem very hostile towards Christianity. Is there a particular reason? I respect your opinion and your right to have it, just wondered if there was a reason.

 

[JennyMominRI]

are nuns who are some of the most whole and dynamic people I know.

Reformed Judaism, of course, being more open than Conservative or Orthodox.

:

Because I'm anal and not because I'm picking on you it's Reform Judaism,not Reformed

 

[jimmiej]

But where does it have to happen?

I believe that one must do these things to enter into heaven, BUT Jesus never said we must do them on the earth, so then one must be able to do them after their earthly death, so anybody of any religions can get into heaven, just not as quickly after an earthly death.

Wasn't trying to ignore your question; just chose others to respond to last night instead.

I don't think you'll find any scripture indicating a chance to repent after death. This Scripture (a parable told by Jesus) would seem to indicate an after-death experience of forgiveness is not possible:

Luke 16

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'

31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

 

[jimmiej]

Yeah I know - but why do evangelicals think that a Catholic must not have received the spirit? I will tell you right now and for every day of my life that Jesus Christ is my Savior and I want to follow him. I also happen to be Catholic. Am I saved in your view?

I wouldn't presume to tell you you are or are not saved. That's up to God. However, based upon your earlier statements, I would say absolutely!

Often people miss the fact that baptism gives us new life/new birth because they have an impoverished view of the grace God gives us through baptism, which they think is a mere symbol. But Scripture is clear that baptism is much more than a mere symbol.

In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." When Paul was converted, he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16).

Peter also said, "God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21). Peter says that, as in the time of the flood, when eight people were "saved through water," so for Christians, "aptism . . . now saves you." It does not do so by the water’s physical action, but through the power of Jesus Christ’s resurrection, through baptism’s spiritual effects and the appeal we make to God to have our consciences cleansed.

These verses showing the supernatural grace God bestows through baptism set the context for understanding the New Testament’s statements about receiving new life in the sacrament.

What would you say about the thief on the cross? We believe the "supernatural" aspect of it is the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit." Hence, Jesus' Words, "Born of the Spirit."

 

[JennyMominRI]

What would you say about the thief on the cross? We believe the "supernatural" aspect of it is the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit." Hence, Jesus' Words, "Born of the Spirit."

Jimmie...There is this portion of the Confirmation. would this be what you mean

So what occurs during Confirmation? The Holy Spirit is first introduced to a Catholic the day that she's baptized, because the entire Holy Trinity — Father, Son, and Holy Spirit — are invoked at the ceremony. During Confirmation, God the Holy Spirit comes upon the person, accompanied by God the Father and God the Son, just as he did at Pentecost. The Feast of Pentecost commemorates the descent of the Holy Spirit from heaven to earth upon the 12 apostles and the Virgin Mary, occurring 50 days after Easter and 10 days after Jesus' Ascension (Acts 2:1–4).

This sacrament is called Confirmation, because the faith given in Baptism is now confirmed and made strong. Sometimes, those who benefit from Confirmation are referred to as soldiers of Christ. This isn't a military designation but a spiritual duty to fight the war between good and evil, light and darkness — a war between the human race and all the powers of hell.

Confirmation means accepting responsibility for your faith and destiny. Childhood is a time when you're told what to do, and you react positively to reward and negatively to punishment. Adulthood, even young adulthood, means that you must do what's right on your own, not for the recognition or reward but merely because it's the right thing to do. Doing what's right can be satisfying, too. The focus is on the Holy Spirit, who confirmed the apostles on Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4) and gave them courage to practice their faith. Catholics believe that the same Holy Spirit confirms Catholics during the Sacrament of Confirmation and gives them the same gifts and fruits.

 

[mickeyfan2]

But you are actually making my point. Neither the rich man or the beggar were "saved", but the beggar's heart was pure enough to get him into heaven and the rich man's heart was not. There was no Jesus in this time, but Moses and the prophets. We do not even know if the begger knew of them, but the rich man did and he rejected their teachings.

 

[my4kids]

Jimmie...There is this portion of the Confirmation. would this be what you mean

So what occurs during Confirmation? The Holy Spirit is first introduced to a Catholic the day that she's baptized, because the entire Holy Trinity — Father, Son, and Holy Spirit — are invoked at the ceremony. During Confirmation, God the Holy Spirit comes upon the person, accompanied by God the Father and God the Son, just as he did at Pentecost. The Feast of Pentecost commemorates the descent of the Holy Spirit from heaven to earth upon the 12 apostles and the Virgin Mary, occurring 50 days after Easter and 10 days after Jesus' Ascension (Acts 2:1–4).

This sacrament is called Confirmation, because the faith given in Baptism is now confirmed and made strong. Sometimes, those who benefit from Confirmation are referred to as soldiers of Christ. This isn't a military designation but a spiritual duty to fight the war between good and evil, light and darkness — a war between the human race and all the powers of hell.

Confirmation means accepting responsibility for your faith and destiny. Childhood is a time when you're told what to do, and you react positively to reward and negatively to punishment. Adulthood, even young adulthood, means that you must do what's right on your own, not for the recognition or reward but merely because it's the right thing to do. Doing what's right can be satisfying, too. The focus is on the Holy Spirit, who confirmed the apostles on Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4) and gave them courage to practice their faith. Catholics believe that the same Holy Spirit confirms Catholics during the Sacrament of Confirmation and gives them the same gifts and fruits.

Thanks Jenny,

I would just add about the Sacrament of Reconciliation (commonly referred to as going to confession). The thief on the cross was sorrowful and an admitted sinner, and expressed to Jesus he wanted to be a follower, and Jesus said he was welcome in Heaven.

 

[ead79]

But you are actually making my point. Neither the rich man or the beggar were "saved", but the beggar's heart was pure enough to get him into heaven and the rich man's heart was not. There was no Jesus in this time, but Moses and the prophets. We do not even know if the begger knew of them, but the rich man did and he rejected their teachings.

I would argue that the beggar was in fact "saved" though, you don't have to use that exact terminology. Otherwise the beggar wouldn't have had a pure heart if he hadn't accepted the purifying sacrifice of God's Son (or in this case, the promise of that Son). Also, as a Christian, I believe that the Old Testament points to the New Testament--that there are multiple references to Jesus throughout the Old Testament pointing to His coming and sacrifice. Obviously a Jewish person would not share that view. I believe the point of this story is to illustrate that you must make a choice for Christ before it is too late and that you must have faith even when you have not seen what lies ahead.

 

[erinch]

just shoot me in the head! said I was in a hurry. We're having arguments all the time in the PC(USA) about what constitutes reformed tenets, and that's the only way the word comes out my fingers. I' I'll go back and fix it.

Because I'm anal and not because I'm picking on you it's Reform Judaism,not Reformed

 

[JennyMominRI]

just shoot me in the head! said I was in a hurry. We're having arguments all the time in the PC(USA) about what constitutes reformed tenets, and that's the only way the word comes out my fingers. I' I'll go back and fix it.

No biggie really. Like I said Im just being picky

 

[jimmiej]

But you are actually making my point. Neither the rich man or the beggar were "saved", but the beggar's heart was pure enough to get him into heaven and the rich man's heart was not. There was no Jesus in this time, but Moses and the prophets.

What does it mean that the beggar's heart was pure? Can a man's heart be pure w/o God? Not according to Scripture. Faith in God (OT-Abraham, Moses, David, etc.) and now faith in Jesus (Apostles, Paul, you, me) are required to cleanse our hearts before God and "save" us from God's wrath. The rich man put his faith in money and possessions.

Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

We do not even know if the begger knew of them, but the rich man did and he rejected their teachings.

Romans 1

20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

 

[aquinas]

Let me just add this. Grace is unmerited favor from God. There is nothing we can do to earn God's grace therefore there is no way we can stay in or out of God's grace. There is no unforgiveable sin. David committed murder and adultery but we see throughout the book of Psalms where he repented and asked to be forgiven. The idea of a special type of sin, i.e. mortal sin, is not a biblically based practice.

Personally I believe in Election. But since we do not know who the elect are then we as Christians are obligated and commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28 to go out and preach the Gospel so those that will be saved will respond to the Word.

Back to the OP and to echo statements made by many on this thread that all churches should be "evangelical" if that are remaining faithful to Scripture.

 

[jimmiej]

Jimmie...There is this portion of the Confirmation. would this be what you mean

So what occurs during Confirmation? The Holy Spirit is first introduced to a Catholic the day that she's baptized, because the entire Holy Trinity — Father, Son, and Holy Spirit — are invoked at the ceremony. During Confirmation, God the Holy Spirit comes upon the person, accompanied by God the Father and God the Son, just as he did at Pentecost. The Feast of Pentecost commemorates the descent of the Holy Spirit from heaven to earth upon the 12 apostles and the Virgin Mary, occurring 50 days after Easter and 10 days after Jesus' Ascension (Acts 2:1–4).

This sacrament is called Confirmation, because the faith given in Baptism is now confirmed and made strong. Sometimes, those who benefit from Confirmation are referred to as soldiers of Christ. This isn't a military designation but a spiritual duty to fight the war between good and evil, light and darkness — a war between the human race and all the powers of hell.

Confirmation means accepting responsibility for your faith and destiny. Childhood is a time when you're told what to do, and you react positively to reward and negatively to punishment. Adulthood, even young adulthood, means that you must do what's right on your own, not for the recognition or reward but merely because it's the right thing to do. Doing what's right can be satisfying, too. The focus is on the Holy Spirit, who confirmed the apostles on Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4) and gave them courage to practice their faith. Catholics believe that the same Holy Spirit confirms Catholics during the Sacrament of Confirmation and gives them the same gifts and fruits.

The only differences I can see between this and my Southern Baptist beliefs is the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" takes place not at a certain time in a person's religious upbringing, but rather when they individually initiate it. We choose or reject Jesus as a personal decision.

And, as I stated before, we don't believe good works plays any part in our salvation-they are merely a reflection of our love and gratitude to God.

Jews did not believe there was a *sacrifice yet too come*...Jews before Jesus were not waiting for a savior

Really? We've always been taught just the opposite. There are countless Scriptures in the Bible that suggest that.

Luke 7

20When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' "

Luke 2

25Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
29"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you now dismiss[d] your servant in peace.
30For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
32a light for revelation to the Gentiles
and for glory to your people Israel."

 

[jimmiej]

Personally I believe in Election.

Me too, but I differ from my pastor and my wife on this.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Luke 7

20When the men came to Jesus, they said, "John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, 'Are you the one who was to come, or should we expect someone else?' "

Luke 2

25Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
29"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you now dismiss[d] your servant in peace.
30For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
32a light for revelation to the Gentiles
and for glory to your people Israel."

Jimmie,those verses are from the NT,Your bible and are not part of Jewish scripture....Jews were not and are not waiting for a savior
What exactly would Jews want to be *saved* from as there is no Hell, no concept of eternal torment