Is point rental against the DVC policies?

[travelbug]

OP here. Thanks, everyone, for your replies and for filling me in on what the policy actually is. I had no idea that this is a recurring issue with CMs and the message some of them deliver about renting.

 

[Dean]

What if it's the SAME CM each time? Alas on the Dis we aren't supposed to name the names of bad CMs or we could track it.

unlikely. If It was simply being misinformed, They wouldn't stay that long for an extended period.

 

[CarolMN]

Having managed several large call centers during part of my working years, I will say that it is VERY DIFFICULT to get every rep to completely
understand rules, procedures, changes, policies, etc. That's especially true if there are nuances involved. This is not an excuse, but it does explain why customers sometimes get bad/conflicting information. We had to prioritize where to place the training emphasis (and re-emphasis) and I'm sure DVC does that , too. Were I running MS, correcting misunderstandings about renting would NOT be anywhere near the top of my list. (I'd be in the IT manager's office more often than not based on what's been happening lately.)

 

[Dean]

Having managed several large call centers during part of my working years, I will say that it is VERY DIFFICULT to get every rep to completely
understand rules, procedures, changes, policies, etc. That's especially true if there are nuances involved. This is not an excuse, but it does explain why customers sometimes get bad/conflicting information. We had to prioritize where to place the training emphasis (and re-emphasis) and I'm sure DVC does that , too. Were I running MS, correcting misunderstandings about renting would NOT be anywhere near the top of my list. (I'd be in the IT manager's office more often than not based on what's been happening lately.)

I certainly realize that, I deal with this type of issue all the time. However, I feel we've seen a consistent enough set of reports to suggest there's something else.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Having managed several large call centers during part of my working years, I will say that it is VERY DIFFICULT to get every rep to completely
understand rules, procedures, changes, policies, etc. That's especially true if there are nuances involved. This is not an excuse, but it does explain why customers sometimes get bad/conflicting information. We had to prioritize where to place the training emphasis (and re-emphasis) and I'm sure DVC does that , too. Were I running MS, correcting misunderstandings about renting would NOT be anywhere near the top of my list. (I'd be in the IT manager's office more often than not based on what's been happening lately.)

I've tended to think it was just a one or two CM's that do this although I don't actually have a clue how many MS agents there are. IMO I've always thought the reports are relatively rare - maybe twice a year if that? I've rented a few times and never even gotten a hint from MS that they thought I couldn't.

I certainly realize that, I deal with this type of issue all the time. However, I feel we've seen a consistent enough set of reports to suggest there's something else.

As I mentioned my perception is that these reports are rare enough that it likely isn't being promoted by DVC - but it probably also isn't something they worry too much about correcting with the couple of CM's that do it assuming they even know they are doing it. I'd guess some of the taped conversations get reviewed for quality and assuming it's random they might miss any ones relating to rentals. I would find that inappropriate though as it's incorrect and false information being provided to a member and it should be corrected if it's learned about.

 

[Nursejilly]

We have rented out points from both of our contracts with no issues. It definitely helps pay your maintenance fees and then some if you choose not to use the points yourself. We just did it due to family member illness for this November. It was a total bummer to cancel our trip but at least the financial part is taken care of.

 

[DVC_B]

As a member services cast member perhaps I can shed a bit of light here. Renting points commercially is against your contract depending on when you purchased. Commercially is anything that provides you with a profit. Cast is very aware when there is a "renter" on the phone. That being said generally nothing is done to stop this. I say generally because after a while if it's noticed that you are renting an audit is performed and member admin reaches out to the renter. This though is quite rare and usually only occurs to those who constantly rent.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

As a member services cast member perhaps I can shed a bit of light here. Renting points commercially is against your contract depending on when you purchased. Commercially is anything that provides you with a profit. Cast is very aware when there is a "renter" on the phone. That being said generally nothing is done to stop this. I say generally because after a while if it's noticed that you are renting an audit is performed and member admin reaches out to the renter. This though is quite rare and usually only occurs to those who constantly rent.

However the contracts do allow for renting and they do allow an owner to receive payment for renting. Commercially means it is a business which yes, is mentioned as prohibited, but a CM should not be indicating that renting itself is prohibited because it is not.

 

[DVC_B]

This is correct. If you offer to rent your points to say a neighbors trip that's perfectly fine. However, if you are renting per point for an amount that is higher than your maintenance fee per point it's commercial. So those $15 per point sites are against the contract. Again though this depends on your contract purchase date because these rules didn't always exist.

 

[Dean]

As a member services cast member perhaps I can shed a bit of light here. Renting points commercially is against your contract depending on when you purchased. Commercially is anything that provides you with a profit. Cast is very aware when there is a "renter" on the phone. That being said generally nothing is done to stop this. I say generally because after a while if it's noticed that you are renting an audit is performed and member admin reaches out to the renter. This though is quite rare and usually only occurs to those who constantly rent.

This is partially incorrect, the definition of commercial is not financial based, it is volume based.

 

[miTnosnhoJ]

Let's see...
If I paid $40,000 for my points, and I rent 100 points out for $2 more than the maintenance fee, I don't think I have a $200 profit. I am in the hole by $39,800. I am surprised the training for cast members is so bad.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

This is correct. If you offer to rent your points to say a neighbors trip that's perfectly fine. However, if you are renting per point for an amount that is higher than your maintenance fee per point it's commercial. So those $15 per point sites are against the contract. Again though this depends on your contract purchase date because these rules didn't always exist.

No, commercial is not defined that way. You already spoke about the definition - by volume that gets reviewed. There is nothing defining how much you can rent for.

 

[supersnoop]

Renting points commercially is against your contract depending on when you purchased.

Can you elaborate on "depending on when you purchased?" I don't think the renting rules have ever been changed.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Can you elaborate on "depending on when you purchased?" I don't think the renting rules have ever been changed.

I was wondering if they just are referring to when the guideline of 20 rentals per year as a possible trigger for review was added?

 

[supersnoop]

No, commercial is not defined that way. You already spoke about the definition - by volume that gets reviewed. There is nothing defining how much you can rent for.

This is partially incorrect, the definition of commercial is not financial based, it is volume based.

To be clear, "commercial" not defined at all, at least not legally. THe guideline is in place to help identify likely situations, but that metric alone does not define commercial use. Any pattern of behavior would have to be reviewed. It's pretty much the "I don't know what it looks like, but I'll know it when it see it" test.

 

[CarolMN]

We purchased in 1999 and our QA checklist at that time EXPRESSLY ALLOWS renting. It only states that there is no guarantee that one would be able to rent to others because of competition from Disney itself.

The 20 reservation limit, at most, triggers an audit to determine if the pattern of renting is commercial. I believe there are several at MS who do NOT understand the nuances involved and believe all rentals are a problem. IMO, DVC_B's definition of commercial renting is not correct and if that definition were challenged by an owner, the owner would prevail.

 

[Dean]

... I don't think the renting rules have ever been changed.

No except for the vague clarification of the "commercial renting" a few years ago and renting couldn't be limited much ir any more for the current system esp not in such a way as to remove the option. And I don't believe they could ratchet down the "commercial renting" any more than it is already and still be within the intent and legalities of the POS. As a CM who apparently works with MS it seems they have fallen prey to some of the issues discussed here whether it's purposeful misinformation from DVD to the front lines, Rogue employees or just the typical evolution of half truths over time. Clearly renting is contractually allowed and clearly there is not a direct $$ or "profit" component. Any restrictions would have to be such that any reasonable person would agree it was an appropriate definition of commercial, I think the current rules as published fit that bill but are likely the lower limit. There are other ways they could define it including number of points other than number of reservations. Courts tend to side with individuals in such situations unless there is clear and absolute legal constraint and I'm sure DVC doesn't want to get challenged and lose on this or other matters so they'll likely want to stay on firm ground.

 

[DougEMG]

Back in 2011/2012 I had purchased a number of load contracts and ended up renting out the points since I couldn't use them all myself. I got one of those audit letters sent to me and I called up DVC audit to explain to them what was going on. We had a nice friendly chat. What they told me was that what triggers their letter is 20 reservations within a rolling 12 month period. I've no idea what they do after the letter as they just thanked me for calling and I've never heard back from them again, but I've also never had 20 reservations in a 12 month period again.

 

[Pluto777]

I disagree, the contract expressly allows renting and precludes commercial renting. While there is a gray zone, saying it is not allowed is simply wrong and either ignorant or purposefully misleading, there are no other explanations.

"... allows renting and precludes commercial renting..." - I read and reread this and STILL can't figure out exactly what the difference in this would be. Can anyone else?

 

[Dean]

"... allows renting and precludes commercial renting..." - I read and reread this and STILL can't figure out exactly what the difference in this would be. Can anyone else?

It’s purposefully a little vague but at the end of the day it’s volume based. Their current look at 20 in a year is a reasonable approach.