Is it possible for someone to tell me (WITHOUT DEBATE!)...

[WIcruizer]

The laws of the nation aren't there to legislate morality, they are there to prevent chaos and maintain order and safety.

Exactly, and some would argue that includes maintaining the safety of the unborn. That's why it's not so simple, and why it is a unique situation.

 

[WIcruizer]

Liberal bashing? So much for keeping respectful.

What did I say that was liberal bashing? Just mentioning the word? Are you saying most college campuses are not liberal? I'll be happy to debate THAT if you really want to. I didn't say anything about liberal in a negative way.

 

[BelleMcNally]

Exactly, and some would argue that includes maintaining the safety of the unborn. That's why it's not so simple, and why it is a unique situation.

I will definitely agree with you that it is a unique situation!! I think that the probable chaos that would ensue from criminalizing abortion would be a greater societal threat than the status quo.

 

[WIcruizer]

I think that the probable chaos that would ensue from criminalizing abortion would be a greater societal threat than the status quo.

It would be chaotic! But again, that's why I don't focus on making abortion illegal, because it won't happen any time soon.

 

[chobie]

So you would agree it's perfectly moral for a woman to have 30 late term abortions if she chooses?

Logically and scientifically speaking, its highly improbable a woman can get pregnant 30 times.

 

[WIcruizer]

Logically and scientifically speaking, its highly improbable a woman can get pregnant 30 times.

Well...it's obvious I'm trying to learn something, and you're trying to debate. That's fine, but I'm not interested in debate. If you don't want to answer the question, fine. How about 10 times then? Is that perfectly moral for you, it's ok with you if it's ok with her?

 

[JennyMominRI]

So you would agree it's perfectly moral for a woman to have 30 late term abortions if she chooses?

Cerainly not..If they were elective late term abortions ,she would be breaking the law...
The though of an intact D&X(the proper name for a partial birth abortion) makes me physically ill.. There are rare instances where it is neccessary.In cases of gross hydroencephally , when a baby's skull has no brain,but has an enormous amount of fluid,it can be the only safe way to end an already non-viable pregnancy.. The skull is abnormally large and must be collapsed so that the owm can give birth.

 

[chobie]

What did I say that was liberal bashing? Just mentioning the word? Are you saying most college campuses are not liberal? I'll be happy to debate THAT if you really want to. I didn't say anything about liberal in a negative way.

Actually, it seems like you're the one who wants to debate.

 

[chobie]

Cerainly not..If they were elective late term abortions ,she would be breaking the law...
The though of an intact D&X(the proper name for a partial birth abortion) makes me physically ill.. There are rare instances where it is neccessary.In cases of gross hydroencephally , when a baby's skull has no brain,but has an enormous amount of fluid,it can be the only safe way to end an already non-viable pregnancy.. The skull is abnormally large and must be collapsed so that the owm can give birth.

Of course that is the reality of the D&X procedure, but that does not provide the emotional impact of calling it partial-birth abortion and making up a story of some slutty teenage girl getting an abortion at 8 months so she can fit into her prom dress.

 

[AnaheimGirl]

Most Pro Choice people would not agree with your determination. They support the right of abortion to term...

Not to beat a dead horse, but I'd like to comment on this. I don't know about "most" pro-choice people, leaders of the movement or not, but I know that after much debate and introspection on the matter, I am moving farther and farther toward this extreme.

First of all, I have to say that the thought of aborting an otherwise healthy, viable infant makes me sick to my stomach. I would hope that anyone who feels she cannot be pregnant anymore with such an infant would induce labor and allow that baby to be adopted, rather than abort it. But I do know that late-term abortions are done primarily for medical reasons.

In a perfect world, there would be no need for any abortion, but in reality, my "ideal" would be to allow abortion before viability for any reason; and only in extreme circumstances post-viability. But the more I think of it, the harder those post-viability exclusions are to define. Certainly for the life or health of the mother, and in cases of severe disability, especially pain and suffering for the baby. But then I realized, who is going to define "health of the mother", "severe disability" or "pain and suffering"? I don't want the government or the courts to define that, I think that should be between the pregnant woman and her doctor. There are other reasons, too, like the 12yo who was raped and in denial until post-viability, whose body is not mature enough to continue the pregnancy without damaging her future fertility. Again, I don't think the government should be the one determining the parameters. How about rape in general? An exception for rape is often cited by both sides. What about date-rape? IMO, no different from stranger-jumping-out-of-the-bushes-rape, but where does that end? Is it rape only when the rapist physically forces her, or slips a little GHB into her drink? What if he mixes her a stronger cocktail than she realizes? What if she knowingly gets drunk, and he "takes advantage"? How does a woman prove she was raped? Who is going to judge her particular facts and circumstances? There is far too much gray area IMO, to come up with a hard and fast set of rules. It depends on the individual facts and circumstances of each case. IMO, it cannot be legislated.

For this reason, as much as I hate it, I think I'm in favor of no governmental limits on abortion rights even up to term. I think it should be between a woman and her doctor, and I think it would be self-regulating. No one will convince me that there are a significant number of women out there deciding at 36 weeks that they don't want the baby anymore and aborting healthy fetuses. Even if that is a woman's decision, I don't believe it will be easy for her to find a doctor willing to abort such a baby, either. Late-term abortions are almost always due to medical reasons, whether the woman's or the baby's. Unfortunately, since I believe in letting the woman and her doctor make these decisions, certainly there will be cases in which I might abhor the decision made. But those cases aren't about me, they are about them, and isn't that the whole point of being pro-choice? Letting others decide for themselves, without my, or anyone else's intervention?

 

[BelleMcNally]

It would be chaotic! But again, that's why I don't focus on making abortion illegal, because it won't happen any time soon.

Yeah, that's what's always made this such a difficult issue for me to discuss with people--I am pro-choice in that abortion should remain legal, but I find it to be a morally shady option. I see it as appropriate in more circumstances than the usually given rape/incest, saving mother's life, etc.--but in NO WAY do I think it should be used as some sort of replacement for birth control...

I really find no way to justify having a late term abortion--except in the very rare cases that it is medically necessary. And, in such a case, it's a choice between which life to save--because a creature that can survive outside of its mother's body is definitely a life.

So, while I have my personal moral issues with abortion, I will defend, to my grave, a woman and her doctor's legal opportunity to make that decision for themselves.

 

[punkin]

So you would agree it's perfectly moral for a woman to have 30 late term abortions if she chooses?



I have no idea why all the focus is on late term abortions (which are only legal in most states if there is a medical reason). These abortions are rarely performed and the majority of abortions occur before the 1st trimester is over.

I would think that late-term abortions are perfomed on women who actually wanted the pregnancy and then choose to terminate because of sever medical issues. I'll try to gooogle for some statistics to back me up on this.

 

[WIcruizer]

Chobie, fortunately these posts speak for themselves for everyone to see. You won't answer a question, and instead accuse me of "bashing" a group of people with nothing to support your claim. It's pretty transparent.

 

[punkin]

YES YES YES This is exactly my belief. I personally would not have an abortion (except in the most dire circumstances), but then, I am married, edumacated (sp is a joke people), and financially secure. If an accident was to happen, it would not ruin my life. I have no right to make that decision for someone else.

 

[chobie]

So you would agree it's perfectly moral for a woman to have 30 late term abortions if she chooses?



I have no idea why all the focus is on late term abortions (which are only legal in most states if there is a medical reason). These abortions are rarely performed and the majority of abortions occur before the 1st trimester is over.

I would think that late-term abortions are perfomed on women who actually wanted the pregnancy and then choose to terminate because of sever medical issues. I'll try to gooogle for some statistics to back me up on this.

That's exactly it. And I'm still wondering about how a question about the constitutional right to choose became a litany about the D&X procedure.

 

[chobie]

Chobie, fortunately these posts speak for themselves for everyone to see. You won't answer a question, and instead accuse me of "bashing" a group of people with nothing to support your claim. It's pretty transparent.

I answered you question about a woman having 30 late term abortions. And I think posing the stereotype about liberals being people who don't pay taxes was meant to be bashing.

BTW, your "logic" is pretty transparent too.

 

[punkin]

Here are some statistics:

58 percent of legal abortions occur within the first eight weeks of gestation, and 88 percent are performed within the first 12 weeks. Only 1.5 percent occur after 20 weeks (CDC, 2003)

As for late term abortions:

• Adolescents are more likely than older women to obtain abortions later in pregnancy. Adolescents obtain 30 percent of all abortions performed after the first trimester (CDC, 2003).
•
• Among women under age 15, nearly one in four abortions are performed at 13 or more weeks' gestation (CDC, 2003).
•
• The very youngest women, those under age 15, are more likely than others to obtain abortions at 21 or more week's gestation (CDC, 2003).

 

[punkin]

That's exactly it. And I'm still wondering about how a question about the constitutional right to choose became a litany about the D&X procedure.

Well that's pretty obvious. It is a horrible looking procedure which elicits a viceral response, even from people who are mostly pro-choice. Same resaon for holding up pictures of aborted fetuses during anti-abortion marches.

 

[chobie]

Well that's pretty obvious. It is a horrible looking procedure which elicits a viceral response, even from people who are mostly pro-choice. Same resaon for holding up pictures of aborted fetuses during anti-abortion marches.

And that's what this is about; trying to elicit an emotional response while insisting its a "logical" argument.

 

[WIcruizer]

And I think posing the stereotype about liberals being people who don't pay taxes was meant to be bashing.

Your continued dishonsesty has killed this civil discussion. Show me where I said liberals don't pay taxes. We're waiting.