Is Disney World becoming a shell of its former self?

[lockedoutlogic]

Whoa, that's great for you Pilferk. I tried doing the Hulk coaster and I almost hurled all over the kids legs in front of me. Ahhh memories.

I had no problem with Spidey and Dr. Doom's Fearfall though. I think it was just the motion of the Hulk coaster.

I'm with pilferk on this...

And if you hated hulk...you'd loathe space mountain in paris

 

[DDLand]

Thanks for that last bit. Since we were talking about WDW (and the surrounding regions), that was my bent with "anyone", but it probably wasn't clearly stated. That first bit is speculation on both parts, so we'll have to see. I can see KUKA leaving THAT tech with Uni in specific regions, pending further use, for the right amount of money. Again, they haven't seemed unhappy with the current deal. The exact dates are in question, too, (unless there's a version of the contract on the net that I've missed, which is entirely possible!) for expiration. We know it's sometime between April 2017 and Jan 2020....between 2 and 5 years from now....depending on whether the clock started ticking during design and construction or not.

Disney would have to be VERY careful on design, without a contract with KUKA in place, that hinges on their tech. Even considering they could try to pass it off as "for a different park" (say, DLP). You could blue sky (concept and artwork), but anything further than that could be argued as a violation not only of the exclusivity deal, but of patent infringement, without involving KUKA directly. If you're using it as part of a pitch....sure. But in terms of real, detailed, workable design? Dicey.

And any blue sky plans would be outside of the immediate expansion plans for DHS, Epcot, etc...unless they decide to pull another SDMT and shoe horn something in for "late opening". Because going from blue sky to design to testing to construction would likely put us outside their current rumored time frames. They'd basically have to leave open ground, during construction, for at least a couple years, to be able to use the tech. I find that option unlikely.

They're plenty familiar (heck, they had a version sitting on their property) with the tech, now, FYI. It hasn't really changed much since inception (some reliability improvements). They know how it works enough to blue sky with it. They reportedly worked with KUKA, before the uni deal, to try to create a modified version of it to fit a different idea....but it a) didn't pan out and b) was then swallowed up by the uni exclusivity deal.

But realistically...they can't do any real design (I'm talking schematic level stuff) for anything they'd potentially plan for WDW until after the deal with uni expires. Not without risk of legal exposure....and I doubt it's a level of risk they'd find worth taking. Not even in a wink wink nudge nudge capacity. Easier to let it lay until the deal has officially expired.

Edit:
AND, the tangent, while interesting, still belies the initial point: TODAY, nobody can use the tech (in relation to WDW, etc) to built multi-axis simulator rides except Uni. So bemoaning a lack of them on WDW property is a little....off base.

Alright, but do keep in mind there's been no way to state their dissatisfaction or further ambition. They've been stuck, and will continue to be stuck until 2017. (http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/upcoming-rumored-projects.421792/page-21#post-3715959) Just because we publicly haven't heard anything doesn't mean they aren't itching to release their tech to some of the most prestigious and wealthy theme park markets in the globe.

Though as you say, for the right price anyone can be bought.

I'm also fairly sure that as an off the shelf ride system, they could design an attraction around it with the intent to buy Kuka's services later. Unless WDC began making strides to acquire their ride system and Kuka agreed, Universal wouldn't have grounds for recourse. Considering WDI's ride designs are trade secrets and are unusable without a critical partner (Robocoaster) no lawsuits would go flying. It's simply blue sky designs.

Actually it would fit into the time frame to build a Kuka attraction. Take for example Cars Land, construction began mid 2009 and finished up 2012. 3 years. Assuming the 2021 date is still floating around, let's say they start work in mid 2018. They could make it happen if they already had designs ready to go and they got ahold of the tech as soon as possible.

Though I'm pretty certain that so long as Harry Potter is huge, we won't see the current incarnation of Kuka at WDW. It's too much of an icon for WDW to use, and Universal's star power is huge. They'll focus development on other options I'd wager. Though if WDW wanted to push the boundaries they could be one of the first to implement Kuka 3rd generation. That would take the spotlight and focus it squarely on them.

 

[pilferk]

Alright, but do keep in mind there's been no way to state their dissatisfaction or further ambition. They've been stuck, and will continue to be stuck until 2017. (http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/upcoming-rumored-projects.421792/page-21#post-3715959) Just because we publicly haven't heard anything doesn't mean they aren't itching to release their tech to some of the most prestigious and wealthy theme park markets in the globe.

Though as you say, for the right price anyone can be bought.

I'm also fairly sure that as an off the shelf ride system, they could design an attraction around it with the intent to buy Kuka's services later. Unless WDC began making strides to acquire their ride system and Kuka agreed, Universal wouldn't have grounds for recourse. Considering WDI's ride designs are trade secrets and are unusable without a critical partner (Robocoaster) no lawsuits would go flying. It's simply blue sky designs.

Actually it would fit into the time frame to build a Kuka attraction. Take for example Cars Land, construction began mid 2009 and finished up 2012. 3 years. Assuming the 2021 date is still floating around, let's say they start work in mid 2018. They could make it happen if they already had designs ready to go and they got ahold of the tech as soon as possible.

Though I'm pretty certain that so long as Harry Potter is huge, we won't see the current incarnation of Kuka at WDW. It's too much of an icon for WDW to use, and Universal's star power is huge. They'll focus development on other options I'd wager. Though if WDW wanted to push the boundaries they could be one of the first to implement Kuka 3rd generation. That would take the spotlight and focus it squarely on them.

1) yeah, but the entertainment division of KUKA is really a smaller subsidiary of kuka robotics corp. I'm not convinced the entertainment applications are the leaderships primary concern or revenue model. There are so many other apps for the tech..from industrial to 3d printers to medical, etc. Their corporate focus seems to be on those applications...other than supporting robocoaster installs. Again, we will see.

2) Its not off the shelf when an eclusivity deal is in place (and off the shelf version is robocoaster, which is slightly different). They can concept and artwork for a pitch....a pitch you cant make until at least 2017. Thats pretty much the extent, without risking exposure. And without specifics, you dont know what you are building, or what the tech is actaully going to function like, til then You just have best guesses, which isn't enough to make land based plans for. You need schematics. And, fyi, wdi ride designs are discoverable, trade secrets or not. If they created specific design documents, plans, and construction filings, based on them, and uni caught wind.....lawsuit. If they approached kuka prior to the deal expiration, and kuka told uni, lawsuit. If the create a specific design using kuka patented tech, with intent to build, prior to contracting with kuka...lawsuit. They can draw pretty pictures and write up a concept....everything else is risky.

3) You need a footprint before you can start construction. You cant have a footprint without design, engineering, and modeling. You cant start any of that til the deal expires in at least 2017. So, assuming the rumors of construction by end of 2016, and a deal that expires, at the earliest, around mid 2017.....you have to guess on empty ground for at least 24 months, and then build out last, with eta of 24 months after that. That puts you at very late 2020, with a very, very agressive and pie in the sky timeline...land hoping you guessed right on footprint. rushing engineering gets you The Yeti. I'd peg that scenario as, being as open minded as possible, highly unlikely.

On cars land, we had 3 years of construction....add at least 18 to 24 months, prior, minimum, on design work, planning, and construction plans (plus bid time, permits, etc). You can't start that pre announce, pre construction time, in earnest, until the deal expires. I'd bet, at this point, the attractions planned for the rumored expansion, given they seem budgeted, are planned, schematiced, blueprinted, and about ready to go.......there will be changes (and likely cuts), for sure. But i'd bet the heavy lifting of the design and engineering are done, or very, very, nearly so.

And i agree: kuka is likely not in their plans..first for the above considerations and second so as not to create ANY comparisons to something at Universal. Actually, another reason i think Kuka would sign an extension with uni....i dont think the demand, in those markets, is there"enough" to offset unis money.

Edit: and again, jedimaster can insist the contracts include construction time..but my experience and information is different. It depends on the contract. It can include construction time, it can be "service time", it can be post deliverable time. Absent the contract, we only know "at least 2017".

And please excuse my typos or mistatements....i switched to my ipad, and i fat finger stuff far too often....

 

[DDLand]

1) yeah, but the entertainment division of KUKA is really a smaller subsidiary of kuka robotics corp. I'm not convinced the entertainment applications are the leaderships primary concern or revenue model. There are so many other apps for the tech..from industrial to 3d printers to medical, etc. Their corporate focus seems to be on those applications...other than supporting robocoaster installs. Again, we will see.

Actually the Kuka Arm robocoaster is a product of Robocoaster. The Kuka tech is licensed from the Kuka Robotics you mentioned and they provide engineering support and employees:
http://www.robocoaster.com/about

Diversifying robocoaster's lineup seems like a key move.

2) Its not off the shelf when an eclusivity deal is in place (and off the shelf version is robocoaster, which is slightly different). They can concept and artwork for a pitch....a pitch you cant make until at least 2017. Thats pretty much the extent, without risking exposure. And without specifics, you dont know what you are building, or what the tech is actaully going to function like, til then You just have best guesses, which isn't enough to make land based plans for. You need schematics. And, fyi, wdi ride designs are discoverable, trade secrets or not. If they created specific design documents, plans, and construction filings, based on them, and uni caught wind.....lawsuit. If they approached kuka prior to the deal expiration, and kuka told uni, lawsuit. If the create a specific design using kuka patented tech, with intent to build, prior to contracting with kuka...lawsuit. They can draw pretty pictures and write up a concept....everything else is risky.

Kuka 2nd generation units are off the shelf tech, and Forbidden Journey is the first example of the tech. If you want proof on that, "June 2010 First RoboCoaster G2 attraction begins passenger carrying operations." http://www.robocoaster.com/history

Guess what major attraction opened in June 2010?


Drag and dropping an off the shelf ride system in show scenes is within the technical prowess of WDI. It's not illegal for WDI to consider or even approach Kuka. It's illegal for Kuka to sell their system to other parties. Kuka would be the one in hot water. Kuka would have to rebuff WDI.

3) You need a footprint before you can start construction. You cant have a footprint without design, engineering, and modeling. You cant start any of that til the deal expires in at least 2017. So, assuming the rumors of construction by end of 2016, and a deal that expires, at the earliest, around mid 2017.....you have to guess on empty ground for at least 24 months, and then build out last, with eta of 24 months after that. That puts you at very late 2020, with a very, very agressive and pie in the sky timeline...land hoping you guessed right on footprint. rushing engineering gets you The Yeti. I'd peg that scenario as, being as open minded as possible, highly unlikely.

Ahh, but I see this as a drag and drop situation. I'd also keep in mind that FJ was built and designed in a matter of 3 years. That was before G2 was proven. Now it's been used over and over and the teams behind it can execute better then ever. If a group engineers could completely redefine the dark ride experience in 3 years. I bet WDI could use decade old tech with at least 4 years of time with Kuka and perhaps even more in the planning stages before. There's nothing illegal with making prototypes and schematics in house, with the eventual intent to acquire the services of Kuka.

On cars land, we had 3 years of construction....add at least 18 to 24 months, prior, minimum, on design work, planning, and construction plans (plus bid time, permits, etc). You can't start that pre announce, pre construction time, in earnest, until the deal expires. I'd bet, at this point, the attractions planned for the rumored expansion, given they seem budgeted, are planned, schematiced, blueprinted, and about ready to go.......there will be changes (and likely cuts), for sure. But i'd bet the heavy lifting of the design and engineering are done, or very, very, nearly so.

And i agree: kuka is likely not in their plans..first for the above considerations and second so as not to create ANY comparisons to something at Universal. Actually, another reason i think Kuka would sign an extension with uni....i dont think the demand, in those markets, is there"enough" to offset unis money.

I'm wondering the same thing myself, but the flip side is how many more attractions does Universal want with Kuka? Is there demand enough from Universal to justify a longterm exclusivity deal?

Edit: and again, jedimaster can insist the contracts include construction time..but my experience and information is different. It depends on the contract. It can include construction time, it can be "service time", it can be post deliverable time. Absent the contract, we only know "at least 2017".

That seems to be unfair for Robocoaster doesn't it? Say Universal dragged their feet/faced delays and robocoaster would have to push back any potential sales years. That doesn't make sense. Like you say, possible, but Jedimaster's response takes that into consideration.

And please excuse my typos or mistatements....i switched to my ipad, and i fat finger stuff far too often....

Don't worry about that, writing most of my posts on my phone makes me all too sympathetic.

 

[Josh Hendy]

"The Mouse reportedly can't get its hands on any additional Kuka arms for theme park use 'til at least 2017."

Well ... that would help explain the glacially slow pace of building and completing Avatar Land ... if KUKA is what is going to power the "Soarin' II 3D" ride.

This may be unfair but ... perhaps Disney should have been inventing or buying up more patents in the field of ride technology and less in the fields of RFID and drone applications? At least based on the kinds of things that I've seen discussed on the message boards for the last several years.

 

[DDLand]

Well ... that would help explain the glacially slow pace of building and completing Avatar Land ... if KUKA is what is going to power the "Soarin' II 3D" ride.

This may be unfair but ... perhaps Disney should have been inventing or buying up more patents in the field of ride technology and less in the fields of RFID and drone applications? At least based on the kinds of things that I've seen discussed on the message boards for the last several years.

I'm not sure, but it looks like Universal may have an exclusive on Kuka 2nd Generation tech, and not other Robocoaster products. Though if what you're surmising is right, Disney would've been buy from them for years before the contract expired.

 

[pilferk]

Actually the Kuka Arm robocoaster is a product of Robocoaster. The Kuka tech is licensed from the Kuka Robotics you mentioned and they provide engineering support and employees:
http://www.robocoaster.com/about

Maybe we're saying the same thing, differently.

Robocoaster is a partner of KUKA entertainment (www.kuka-entertainment.com), which is a wholly owned subsidiary of Kuka Robotics (www.kuka.com).

You can see evidence of the partnership, here: http://www.kuka-entertainment.com/en/company/system_partner/

Robocoaster is a branded version of the KUKA coaster (http://www.kuka-entertainment.com/en/products/robocoaster/). It MAY (I'm not sure...Robocoasters description of history makes it sound like it was, though) have been co-developed with Robocoaster, but the arm tech is all KUKA. KUKA also does all the manufacturing and supplying of the Arm and, I think, the delivery platform (the specialized ride vehicles are, I think the product of Robocoaster, though they are certified by KUKA's engineering for use with the Arm).

Uni's exclusivity agreement is with KUKA Entertainment (and, round about, with KUKA Robotics), for the ARM tech. Not with Robocoaster. Nobody (in the specified regions, over the specified time periods, in a theme park) can use the ARM tech, in any attraction/entertainment based platform.

That obviously blanket covers the Robocoaster/Kuka Coasters..because you can't have that system without the Arm.

Robocoaster is the implementor, installer, reseller, and support company. Uni contracted with them to deliver, install, and support the ride system for FJ.

If Uni's exclusivity agreement was with Robocoaster, just for the specific Robocaoster/KUKA Coaster platform, Disney could simply look for another partner in the chain to implement a somewhat different delivery system for the arm tech. Or create one, themselves (KUKA-ECV!). It's not, so they can't.

There is no "off the shelf" version of the KUKA arm tech. It's a customized solution per application.

There IS "off the shelf" versions of Robocoaster/KUKA coasters.

There is no sure thing that Disney would choose to work with Robocoaster (they may decide to create their own delivery solution, or work with another partner), even if the KUKA arm tech were available for use to them. They COULD, which might shorten up development time a bit, but, at least in the past (from what's "out there") that was not the route Disney was looking to go with. They had something else in mind.

Diversifying robocoaster's lineup seems like a key move.

KUKA's business decisions on extension likely doesn't consider what's best for one of their partners...but rather what's best for KUKA Entertainment, and KUKA Robotics as a whole.

So..yes...I'm sure Robocoaster would like to have a larger customer pool. They might lobby KUKA not to extend with Universal.

How much KUKA would listen to them? We don't know. But it's certainly not going to be their primary motivating factor.

What is pretty obvious is that KUKA Entertainment is a relatively small piece of KUKA Robotics. Again, entertainment applications don't seem to be their core business for the technology. Thats why I can see them just taking the payoff from Uni. It's easy money.

Kuka 2nd generation units are off the shelf tech, and Forbidden Journey is the first example of the tech. If you want proof on that, "June 2010 First RoboCoaster G2 attraction begins passenger carrying operations." http://www.robocoaster.com/history

Guess what major attraction opened in June 2010?

ROBOCOASTERS has off the shelf tech, including that 2nd gen model.

There is a difference...the two are really not synonymous, and I think that's the disconnect here.

Drag and dropping an off the shelf ride system in show scenes is within the technical prowess of WDI. It's not illegal for WDI to consider or even approach Kuka. It's illegal for Kuka to sell their system to other parties. Kuka would be the one in hot water. Kuka would have to rebuff WDI.

Approaching KUKA could be viewed as tampering with the existing contract, until it's expiration. If KUKA refused them outright, damages would likely be nil, but it's still exposure (and potential punative action). If any actual "plans" were made, it would be a violation of the exclusivity deal. Given Disney's general handling of business, I think ANY exposure, or risk of exposure, or perception of exposure is going to stop them, cold.

Ahh, but I see this as a drag and drop situation. I'd also keep in mind that FJ was built and designed in a matter of 3 years. That was before G2 was proven. Now it's been used over and over and the teams behind it can execute better then ever.

There was 3 years between the exclusivity deal and opening. I'd guess there was a solid year or more, prior, of Uni actually working on the ride to ensure the tech was worth the deal.

If a group engineers could completely redefine the dark ride experience in 3 years. I bet WDI could use decade old tech with at least 4 years of time with Kuka and perhaps even more in the planning stages before. There's nothing illegal with making prototypes and schematics in house, with the eventual intent to acquire the services of Kuka.

At MOST 4 years of time. Not at least. That would be 2017 to 2021.

It is illegal if they are actually using KUKA's tech (or, rather, it's a violation of the exclusivity deal, and, potentially KUKA's exclusive patents), in the mock ups. If they are mocking up with cardboard and duct tape, and a "It'll work like this" understanding....sure. But that's not going to get you real world schematics and plans. It'll get you a general understanding...but it won't get you blueprints.

Witness 7DMT, and the swinging cars issue that caused a delay. They mocked up, had a general understanding....and then, upon implementation, the cars didn't quite behave as expected. They had to go back to the drawing board to fix the problem.

And that's with tech THEY actually had, in their hands, to play with prior.

I'm wondering the same thing myself, but the flip side is how many more attractions does Universal want with Kuka? Is there demand enough from Universal to justify a longterm exclusivity deal?

Just to keep it off Disney property...depending on how much KUKA wants to extend the regional deal. Again, the market's not BURSTING with buyers, there, given costs to benefit. You've got probably 3 potential suitors (Disney, Sea World, Lego Land...who already use it in CA).

And I can see Uni doing one more implementation, somewhere, with a different theme. They're not adverse to reusing ride systems (Transformers/Spidey) where appropriately different experiences are there. Given their expansion plans, I can see it being valuable to them.

Edit: I think they're using it, actually, in Gringotts. Not as part of the ride vehicle, but to move some of the screens around. Still arm tech implementation, though, in a theme park.

That seems to be unfair for Robocoaster doesn't it? Say Universal dragged their feet/faced delays and robocoaster would have to push back any potential sales years. That doesn't make sense. Like you say, possible, but Jedimaster's response takes that into consideration.

You said it yourself: Unproven tech, unproven vendor of the tech, and a decade ago. Uni knows when it has leverage (witness the Marvel deal) and how to get good terms. It's just as easy to say it would be unfair to Uni if it were to include construction time. What if the tech didn't perform, under load, as expected? What if they couldn't manufacture the units quickly enough? What if Robocoaster or KUKA ran into trouble when actually implementing the tech? Then Uni's window of exclusivity shrinks (and becomes less valuable) through no fault of their own.

Again, my experience is that it can be any one (or a combination) of those 3 things:Total time (including construction), starting upon deliverables (meaning, when the ride system is delivered to Uni) or in service time (meaning, when the ride is up and functional and signed off on as complete). Absent the actual contract, we don't KNOW which one it is. Even Jim Hill said "at LEAST 2017". I'd agree..that's what we know. At least. Could be as late as Jan 2020.

Don't worry about that, writing most of my posts on my phone makes me all too sympathetic.

Thanks! I try to go back and edit for spelling mistakes (or improper letter placement), but there's usually SOOO many when I'm on the ipad....

 

[pilferk]

On a similar note, I think (but am in no way sure) that Disney might be working with a different KUKA partner (Dynamic Attractions) on some things for Shanghai. Maybe Soarin over the Horizen and the new Peter Pan ride? I don't know. Heck, I should reiterate that I don't know if they really even are working with them. But there seem to be some rumblings to that effect. Dynamic Attractions is definitely working on a bunch of stuff (roughly 75 to 100 million in contracts) for a theme park in Southeast Asia.....

 

[Whatsthegoodword]

When we decided to do this last minute summer trip we took the plunge and booked Universal. HP was the reason. We got 14 day unlimited park tickets for around 1,100 for the whole family. This is quite a bit less than the cost of Disney. So I don't know if Disney is screwed, but I do think more and more are choosing to got to Universal instead and I think if Disney doesn't step up their game that will continue to happen. Maybe I'll post again when we get back in a few weeks and compare

Whoa! I cannot imagine spending 14 days at WDW, much less Universal. Seriously, I can't fill two days at Universal.

...and to the OP: Disney screwed?!? Have you seen the latest reports from the front office? WDW's hotels were booked at over 80% last year. Disney is doing just fine.

 

[pilferk]

Whoa! I cannot imagine spending 14 days at WDW, much less Universal. Seriously, I can't fill two days at Universal.

...and to the OP: Disney screwed?!? Have you seen the latest reports from the front office? WDW's hotels were booked at over 80% last year. Disney is doing just fine.

I can fill 3 days at Uni, if we stay at the Hard Rock. One FULL day in each park, and a day by the pool (which is GLORIOUS). Also, I love their Halloween Horror Nights...I could do 3 of those nights, easy, in a short span.

I assume, too, that the 14 day tickets are the OrlandoFlex tickets..which means they'll include some other stuff, too..not just Universal. Maybe not...but I'd guess.

 

[ForMyBoys]

Whoa! I cannot imagine spending 14 days at WDW, much less Universal. Seriously, I can't fill two days at Universal.

...and to the OP: Disney screwed?!? Have you seen the latest reports from the front office? WDW's hotels were booked at over 80% last year. Disney is doing just fine.

I can fill 3 days at Uni, if we stay at the Hard Rock. One FULL day in each park, and a day by the pool (which is GLORIOUS). Also, I love their Halloween Horror Nights...I could do 3 of those nights, easy, in a short span.

I assume, too, that the 14 day tickets are the OrlandoFlex tickets..which means they'll include some other stuff, too..not just Universal. Maybe not...but I'd guess.

To be clear we won't be there 14 days. We are visiting for one week, 6 days in the parks. My options were a 4 day ticket or 14 day ticket, and I wanted flexibility to go each day so I picked the 14 day ticket for only a few dollars more pp. This includes wet and wild, not sure if we will spend a day there or not.

We typically take long breaks in the middle of the hot day for swim time, and my kids will spend quite a bit of time doing the minion scavenger hunt and all the HP wand stuff, I think that could be a day by itself. We also ride rides more than once (*gasp*). i don't think we will have a problem filling our time, but can't say for sure until we actually get there and experience universal.

 

[rteetz]

Whoa! I cannot imagine spending 14 days at WDW, much less Universal. Seriously, I can't fill two days at Universal.

...and to the OP: Disney screwed?!? Have you seen the latest reports from the front office? WDW's hotels were booked at over 80% last year. Disney is doing just fine.

Not all of the hotels are at 80% or higher that's an average. Hotels like WL aren't booked solid hence the conversion to more DVC rooms. Beach club is next. The resorts that are high occupancy are the moderates and values.

 

[Planogirl]

I can fill 3 days at Uni, if we stay at the Hard Rock. One FULL day in each park, and a day by the pool (which is GLORIOUS). Also, I love their Halloween Horror Nights...I could do 3 of those nights, easy, in a short span.

I assume, too, that the 14 day tickets are the OrlandoFlex tickets..which means they'll include some other stuff, too..not just Universal. Maybe not...but I'd guess.

I can spend 5 days at only Universal. 1 full day in each park and then 1 day to hit favorites. Plus 1 day for the guys to pool hop and 1 day just to play mini-golf and shop and see a movie. Now THAT is heaven.

Other days we would spend driving offsite to see other things perhaps including that place with the mouse.

 

[mvk]

Universal is sending out deals on Portofino Bay that are less than what it costs to stay at the All Star Resorts right now. In peak times. Yet Disney is somehow screwed. Universal can't even come close to filling the resorts they have, they're creating a bigger supply, and Disney has the problem?

You guys are nuts.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I think the original question is too open ended...

If its "is Disney screwed because of universal expansion?" Then the answer is definitely "no" as it has been since there was nothing on the property but snakes and Mosquitos...that's not gonna change.

If the question is "is Disney screwing itself out of future potential due to its Florida strategy?"...then there's a debate there.

 

[mvk]

I think the original question is too open ended...

If its "is Disney screwed because of universal expansion?" Then the answer is definitely "no" as it has been since there was nothing on the property but snakes and Mosquitos...that's not gonna change.

If the question is "is Disney screwing itself out of future potential due to its Florida strategy?"...then there's a debate there.

What Florida strategy are you questioning?

The building of new DVC's that are very popular and profitable (and help 'lock-in' customers year after year)?
The major expansions at two of their parks?
The recently completed expansion at MK, plus another rumored for MK in the near future?
The overhaul/expansion of Downtown Disney/Disney Springs?
The resort strategy that is leading to 90% occupancy rate?
The "special events/hard ticket events" that typically sell out?

Oh, but those pesky magic bands!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

What Florida strategy are you questioning?

The building of new DVC's that are very popular and profitable (and help 'lock-in' customers year after year)?
The major expansions at two of their parks?
The recently completed expansion at MK, plus another rumored for MK in the near future?
The overhaul/expansion of Downtown Disney/Disney Springs?
The resort strategy that is leading to 90% occupancy rate?
The "special events/hard ticket events" that typically sell out?

Oh, but those pesky magic bands!

Not exactly objective today, are we?

They've doubled their prices and begrudgingly added or even maintained things included in those admission prices. Construction schedules are intentionally ground down to a snails pace.

You can deny it...but the evidence will not support you.

That is an intentional milking strategy.

I fail to see how even "apologist"...cough cough...can't at least acknowledge the concept at this point. That doesn't win the debate...but there is validity to the case.

 

[mvk]

Not exactly objective today, are we?

They've doubled their prices and begrudgingly added or even maintained things included in those admission prices. Construction schedules are intentionally ground down to a snails pace.

You can deny it...but the evidence will not support you.

That is an intentional milking strategy.

I fail to see how even "apologist"...cough cough...can't at least acknowledge the concept at this point. That doesn't win the debate...but there is validity to the case.

I'm going to let you in on something... prices tend to go up over time, especially in the entertainment field, and popular events/destinations even moreso. Ten years ago, the average ticket price for a Broadway show was $36. Now its $104.

 

[rteetz]

I'm going to let you in on something... prices tend to go up over time, especially in the entertainment field, and popular events/destinations even moreso. Ten years ago, the average ticket price for a Broadway show was $36. Now its $104.

Here's a point tho. Disney deluxe resorts run well over 400 a night most times of the year. There is a four seasons on property and a Waldorf Astoria near by that can end lower than Disney resorts and offers better services. We have never done a deluxe because it's just been crazy expensive for our family of five in most cases.

 

[mvk]

Here's a point tho. Disney deluxe resorts run well over 400 a night most times of the year. There is a four seasons on property and a Waldorf Astoria near by that can end lower than Disney resorts and offers better services. We have never done a deluxe because it's just been crazy expensive for our family of five in most cases.

Do you think if Disney was worried about those places cutting into their business that they would allow a Four Seasons on property? Seriously.