Is anyone else hugely entertained by the FP+ tier system test?

[MrInfinity]

But even the biggest stumble occasionally. John Carter anyone?

The thing w Disney - and movies like John Carter or The Lone Ranger that "fail" by analysts standards... is that when Disney makes a movie that is a success, it is a multi-billion dollar enterprise level success that rakes in cash from movies, rentals, licensing, characters, theme parks, merchandise, food, and so on and so on for the next 30 years.

John Carter cost $250M to make, and it took in $100M. That's a loss of about $150M. Now Disney earned $42 BILLION in 2012. A $150M loss on John Carter was such a miniscule drop in the bucket to Disney. It's proportionate to a person who earns $42,000 losing $150.

Meanwhile.

Wreck-it-Ralph has raked in $500M -- on movie sales alone. That's not counting the Infinity characters, the lunch boxes, the T-shirts, and the people who will pay mega bucks to stay on property so they can get an FP+ to see Wreck-It-Ralph and Fix-It-Felix "in person".

Yes 1 out of 2 (or whatever % Disney calculates) will fail. But those that make money will make up for it 100-fold.

So Disney did not "fail" with John Carter... it was simply the one that didn't catch on. Call it failure if that makes you happier. I look at it as a "cost of attempting success".

 

[MikeandReneePlus5]

The thing w Disney - and movies like John Carter or The Lone Ranger that "fail" by analysts standards... is that when Disney makes a movie that is a success, it is a multi-billion dollar enterprise level success that rakes in cash from movies, rentals, licensing, characters, theme parks, merchandise, food, and so on and so on for the next 30 years.

John Carter cost $250M to make, and it took in $100M. That's a loss of about $150M. Now Disney earned $42 BILLION in 2012. A $150M loss on John Carter was such a miniscule drop in the bucket to Disney. It's proportionate to a person who earns $42,000 losing $150.

Meanwhile.

Wreck-it-Ralph has raked in $500M -- on movie sales alone. That's not counting the Infinity characters, the lunch boxes, the T-shirts, and the people who will pay mega bucks to stay on property so they can get an FP+ to see Wreck-It-Ralph and Fix-It-Felix "in person".

Yes 1 out of 2 (or whatever % Disney calculates) will fail. But those that make money will make up for it 100-fold.

So Disney did not "fail" with John Carter... it was simply the one that didn't catch on. Call it failure if that makes you happier. I look at it as a "cost of attempting success".

I watched John Carter on DVD this summer and I have to say, it was pretty good. PROVIDED you like somewhat campy, not too serious, sci-fi.

Reminded me of the 1980 version of Flash Gordon, another "bomb" that has a decent cult following.

I suspect I will feel the same about Lone Ranger when I see it. Kinda like Quentin Tarrantino said when he saw the flick and liked it.

you can't listen to main stream media...especially when they get all piranha-like about something.

 

[MrInfinity]

This new system had to TAKE AWAY fastpass privileges before they could start doling them out (albeit in a different fashion).

Again w the taking and giving. Disney is not taking from or giving to anyone.

If I go to McDonalds and 1 of the 2 lanes is under construction - and it costs me an extra half hour - do I have recourse? No-- I can choose not to go.

If I go to McDonalds and an offering I've come to love and expect every time I go there is no longer there like say... the Big Mac Snack Wrap - do I have recourse? No-- I can buy what they're offering or I can choose to leave.

This is the situation we face w Disney. Disney is no longer offering their old FP system. Accept it. Figure out how to work w/in the new system. If you can't, or don't want to, don't. Don't go at all if it really erks you.

But I don't think it's right to liken Disney to thieves in this case, taking from someone and giving to someone else. Disney is simply trying to maximize their profit. We cannot fault them for that because Disney being profitable is what makes for their ability to keep growing.

As much as the lack of info out there on how FP+'s will work is annoying, I understand why Disney is not dishing the deets so to speak. I will find a way to make it work. So far the real info I've gotten out here has been extremely helpful.

 

[Jeslynb]

In deciding whose estimation might be most accurate, best to go with the one who has millions of dollars riding on it.

Tell that to the former shareholders of AIG.

 

[dwheaton]

I
Is the tiered approach increasing FP+ usage for lesser attractions like Captain EO and Figment?

I find this question to be fascinating. In order for the system to work, Disney needs to have guests picking up those FPs and using them. If not, it still will create bottlenecks at the headliners and will make the Standby lines even longer.

In a weird way, could FP+ actually force Disney to address the big issue at EPCOT of its unfortunate second-tier attractions? Will it cause them to actually rehab Universe of Energy and Imagination and re-open Wonders of Life?

While this is a stretch, I'd be willing to accept some inconvenience with riding Soarin' if they took this opportunity to improve their second-tier attractions. I can dream at least!

 

[MikeandReneePlus5]

Tell that to the former shareholders of AIG.

I think the point is that Disney has long been the vanguard for queue management and guest satisfaction.

As such they're credible, whereas anonymous message board posters going on and on incessantly with dire predictions are not.

Someday Disney may not be credible, if all this fails. that day is not today.

 

[MrInfinity]

I find this question to be fascinating. In order for the system to work, Disney needs to have guests picking up those FPs and using them. If not, it still will create bottlenecks at the headliners and will make the Standby lines even longer.

In a weird way, could FP+ actually force Disney to address the big issue at EPCOT of its unfortunate second-tier attractions? Will it cause them to actually rehab Universe of Energy and Imagination and re-open Wonders of Life?

Imagination is one of my fav rides among all the parks. Now the technology area after the ride needs an overhaul... but hopefully they never touch the soundtrack or ride... My kids sing it for months after a trip. It sticks in their mind more than Small World.

 

[dwheaton]

Imagination is one of my fav rides among all the parks. Now the technology area after the ride needs an overhaul... but hopefully they never touch the soundtrack or ride... My kids sing it for months after a trip. It sticks in their mind more than Small World.

Did you ride the original version? It was twice as long, had even better music, and was a lot better. They also had a much larger upstairs playground that really added to the experience. I don't expect Disney to revert back to the previous version, but they could do a lot more with the space.

 

[clsteve]

I find this question to be fascinating. In order for the system to work, Disney needs to have guests picking up those FPs and using them. If not, it still will create bottlenecks at the headliners and will make the Standby lines even longer.

In a weird way, could FP+ actually force Disney to address the big issue at EPCOT of its unfortunate second-tier attractions? Will it cause them to actually rehab Universe of Energy and Imagination and re-open Wonders of Life?

While this is a stretch, I'd be willing to accept some inconvenience with riding Soarin' if they took this opportunity to improve their second-tier attractions. I can dream at least!

Indeed, a Dream did kinda start all of this, didn't it...?

 

[MrInfinity]

Did you ride the original version? It was twice as long, had even better music, and was a lot better. They also had a much larger upstairs playground that really added to the experience. I don't expect Disney to revert back to the previous version, but they could do a lot more with the space.

I was there in 84... but I was young and don't recall it. So in my adult life I've only seen the new. From the youtube videos the old one looks cool. I like the finale of the current ride better than the old version.

 

[dwheaton]

I was there in 84... but I was young and don't recall it. So in my adult life I've only seen the new. From the youtube videos the old one looks cool. I like the finale of the current ride better than the old version.

I do think the new one receives more negatives than it deserves. The ending is the best part, with the original song appearing in there.

I saw the original a bunch of times as a kid in the 80s and 90s and then most recently in 98 when I was 22. I still think the technology would hold up today, and the music is just great.

 

[Mad Hattered]

John Carter cost $250M to make, and it took in $100M. That's a loss of about $150M. Now Disney earned $42 BILLION in 2012. A $150M loss on John Carter was such a miniscule drop in the bucket to Disney. It's proportionate to a person who earns $42,000 losing $150.



.

Actually, movie studios only recoup closer to 50% of a movies profit at the box office. The $250 million it costs to make John Carter does not include marketing, etc. So in fact, Disney lost $200 million plus marketing costs on John Carter.

Just clearing up some fuzzy logic, there.

 

[daytondisney]

By making smart business decisions. By offering a product people are willing to put down serious money to experience. Yes, they usually are successful at this. But even the biggest stumble occasionally. John Carter anyone? Yes, and up to now Disney has gathered an awful lot of beans by letting the crowds decide where they wanted to be spread. That's going to change a bit with this new system. Do you contend that people do in fact want to ride the second tier rides as much as the headliners? They why haven't they been riding them as heavily up to this point? Disney is "nudging" them where Disney wants them to be. I suppose you could say the introduction of FP took something away from the masses by increasing standby wait lines. But it gave back TO EVERYONE the right to use FP themselves. This new system had to TAKE AWAY fastpass privileges before they could start doling them out (albeit in a different fashion). And I'm guessing crowds have grown since original FP was introduced, making it a different matter entirely. Sure it is. But they are making a mistake if they think repeat visitors aren't going to see this as ride rationing. They can wrap it up in a pretty pink wristband, but it's still ride rationing. Some will think it's ok. Some won't. I know I don't. Apparently a couple others don't either. It remains to be seen if enough of us feel this way to matter. It depends. Millions to a multi-billion dollar company might be similar to thousands to an average joe saving for a Disney trip. Big companies are not infallible. They sometimes make really big mistakes. Then it will be what it is. I don't argue with Disney's right to change their business model to suit their profit goals. I just contend that they miscalculated.

Thought experiment: Disney achieved a certain level of satisfaction with all guests entering park at same time and choosing which rides to stand in line for. It develops a new system like FP and that gives everyone the right to enhance their visit. Disney learns over time that while some have the balance of desire and ability to maximize the positive aspects, others possess either one but not the other, or neither. Overall satisfaction drops.

Does Disney say to itself, "Well, they could be satisfied if they wanted to be?"

This is just one of hundreds of considerations, along with how will any change affect the "mom2rtk's" of our customer base.

 

[bcrook]

Every single time Disney rolls out something new, it's doom and gloom for months here. Then, once it's all fully installed, no one much cares anymore. When Disney Dining came out? Same gloom and doom. Free dining? Yep. Change to the FP system with no late returns? Death and destruction everywhere, for all intents and purposes.
Is this system different? Yep. Will it impact those going soon that had no idea this was happening? Maybe. Will it all shake out? Yep.

And Universal? Their system works solely based on the number of resort guests they have. Anyone that isn't staying at a US/IoA resort has the option to buy the FoTL pass...for varying amounts based on the time of year and expected crowds. The vast majority of people don't pay for this. That's why it works.

I don't see any doom and gloom. I see people making educated guesses on how this will change their vacations. Buyer beware. Because of these discussions, I feel like I am making good decisions about my future trips.

Example: Free dining is horrible for me if it is going on while I am there. The restaurants are too crowded. I now only visit during non free dining times. It isn't doom and gloom for those enjoying free dining, but it sure is terrible for me. So I avoid it. That is an informed decision.

The dynamics of fastpass+ will have a profound effect on touring plans. To avoid an uncomfortable potentially irritating trip, I am going to avoid peak season even more. This is smart consumerism.

I know these changes will be great for some. But not all.

 

[Mad Hattered]

"mom2rtk's" of our customer base.

I'm betting there are a whole bunch of mom2rtk's in their customer base. I think way more than they are imagining or see coming (or not in this case).

 

[Edgehopper]

I find this question to be fascinating. In order for the system to work, Disney needs to have guests picking up those FPs and using them. If not, it still will create bottlenecks at the headliners and will make the Standby lines even longer.

In a weird way, could FP+ actually force Disney to address the big issue at EPCOT of its unfortunate second-tier attractions? Will it cause them to actually rehab Universe of Energy and Imagination and re-open Wonders of Life?

While this is a stretch, I'd be willing to accept some inconvenience with riding Soarin' if they took this opportunity to improve their second-tier attractions. I can dream at least!

I really hope so (and I still like Ellen's Energy Adventure!) But Epcot's stagnation is a huge problem, having only gone downhill since Nemo was installed (and generally declining since Wonders of Life and imagination v1 closed). I'm not optimistic though, given that Disney's new ride development looks like it's all planned for DHS (Star Wars and Pixar) and AK (Avatar).

The strangely long timeline for the Seven Dwarfs Mine train also isn't promising--it seems like Universal did its Simpsons and 2nd Harry Potter expansions much faster than Disney did New Fantasyland. It seems like if they started doing a proper redesign to rebuild Wonders of Life and Imagination now, we might see completion in 2018?

 

[Jeslynb]

I think the point is that Disney has long been the vanguard for queue management and guest satisfaction.

As such they're credible, whereas anonymous message board posters going on and on incessantly with dire predictions are not.

Someday Disney may not be credible, if all this fails. that day is not today.

I think the point of my post was that AIG was the vanguard in its field. If people haven't learned by now to be more circumspect when it comes to their "vanguards," I suppose those folks will never learn (and hopefully are not heavily invested corporate securities).

Moreover, the "anonymous message board posters" are what we refer to in my industry as "customers", and in some cases "shareholders."

As such, they're credible, and entitled to their opinion. In fact, we actually ask our customers for their opinions (and Disney does, too!)

 

[daytondisney]

I'm betting there are a whole bunch of mom2rtk's in their customer base. I think way more than they are imagining or see coming (or not in this case).

Do you know how many there are?

Do you know how many Disney thinks there are?

Do you know the ratio of mom2rtks to non-mom2rtks?

Would all customers who employ strategies similar to mom2rtk still do so if given an alternative?

Is there an objective definition of "loyal customer?"

 

[dansamy]

Loyal customers: can we start with families that stay on property 1+ times a year? And work our way up to those who "bought a piece of the magic"?

 

[bcrook]

Do you know how many there are?

Do you know how many Disney thinks there are?

Do you know the ratio of mom2rtks to non-mom2rtks?

Would all customers who employ strategies similar to mom2rtk still do so if given an alternative?

Is there an objective definition of "loyal customer?"

There is a strand of debate that is judging Disney on whether fastpass+ is smart, going to be successful or profitable, and whether more people will benefit.

But there is another strand of people analyzing how this will change the Disney experience. And it will change it greatly. My trip in October was substantially different than my previous trips: Locking in times in advance, being limited in fastpasses, messing with that horrible website, and other things that force people to guest relations.

As people start reading these threads for the first time preparing for an upcoming trip, people have questions. I think the disboards is a great place to come and get perspective. There are quite a few people on the boards who after reading the information about the fastpass+ changes feel disappointed. They want to know how others view it. It is a huge change. Mom2rtk has been a consistent voice explaining the major changes coming. I appreciate her comments.

There are others who have clearly articulated how fastpass+ will enhance the experience. Also a major change, but a positive change. I have learned a great deal from those insights.

What I do know is this: Disney has been very clear and open about their plans from the beginning. Their terms and conditions posted early on haven't changed much. Their initial interviews have been accurate. We know what this going to look like. People holding out for some wildly cool improvement on the previous system guaranteeing what we had with FP- and then a PLUS, are going to be disappointed.

Maybe that is the problem with the whole thing, maybe they shouldn't have called it FP+. Maybe they should have rebranded it and created a new system all together..