Is anyone as frustrated as me, due to no 2008DDP info yet?????

[bicker]

Any thoughts on what will happen to us since we arrive late December, but leave early January???

They'll probably have a transition period (no longer than 10 days). They may get more persnickety, actually checking the date of check-in to see if you're entitled to the 2007 inclusions or not, but I doubt it.

 

[bicker]

Maybe you could edit the subject title to let people know that info about the 2008 plan HAS been released. Because at first title glance, that is unclear now.

So far all I have seen is information from Virgin about what they understand the 2008 deal to be, NOT from Disney. Until we see the real info from Disney (nice color brochure, just like last year), I think it would be best to leave the thread title as it is.

 

[JimMIA]

There is no question in my mind that Disney has been under-pricing the Dining Plan since 2005.

I don't think the dining plan was under-priced as much as Disney didn't anticipate how guests would use/abuse the plan. I doubt Disney anticipated the number of guests who wouldn't "waste" a child credit on an child meal. I don't think Disney anticipated the number of guests who would stretch their credits, thereby reducing restaurant capacity, by sharing meals. I don't think Disney anticipated the extent guests would be looking to "max" out the plan by gravitating to ordering the most expensive menu item and the most expensive restaurants.

I think the dining plan was fairly priced, based on how guest normally order food but not based on the ways guests were able to "game" the plan.

Interesting discussion, and I think you are both right.

I think, on the one hand, Disney intentionally priced the DDP low because - as we've all said a hundred times - DDP was primarily a sleeping room promotion, not a dining promotion. As Lewisc correctly reminded us in another post, except for DVC owners, you don't just buy DDP. You have to pay a certain rate for your room, get park tickets you may or may not need, and then pay for DDP on top of that. So...was DDP underpriced if you only consider the food part of it? Of course it was.

But - as we've all said many times - DDP is part of a package, not a menu item that you choose or don't choose. So I think you can't take the "underpricing" of DDP out of that context. DDP is the underpriced component of the overall package.

I also agree with Lewisc - and bicker has said this forever also - the degree to which folks "gamed" DDP has come back to haunt us.

We have seen the results in the new restrictions and controls on adult/child credits. Those restrictions and controls were directed at a group of customers who Disney clearly does NOT want back on DDP.

I'm always a bit amused by folks who come on this board and rant about the unfairness of the new restrictions, and say they're never doing DDP again...so there! Got news for you folks...hello???

I'm sure some of the "gaming" is also reflected in whatever reductions in benefits and/or price increases we see. I hate to be cliche, but there truly is "no such thing as a free lunch."

Finally -- and this is something we almost always overlook because we are looking at DDP from our perspective -- much of the evolution of DDP is due to the constant tinkering with the product to improve the revenue model. Disney is not in business to make the same profit levels they made last year. Neither is any other company. They are constantly looking to improve -- and improvement to the shareholders means increased revenues, reduced expenses, and growing profits. If you eliminate the gratuity on DDP and make other adjustments, and improve your bottom line $10 per day per guest, you have grown profits substantially.

 

[bicker]

We have seen the results in the new restrictions and controls on adult/child credits. Those restrictions and controls were directed at a group of customers who Disney clearly does NOT want back on DDP.

I'm always a bit amused by folks who come on this board and rant about the unfairness of the new restrictions, and say they're never doing DDP again...so there! Got news for you folks...hello???

To be fair, the folks saying that they're done with the Dining Plan aren't necessarily that "group of customers who Disney clearly does NOT want back..." you mentioned. However, your point is well-taken: The sins of that "group of customers" is necessarily visited down on all of us because there is no way to separate those who intend to use the plan as intended from those who don't, in advance.

 

[angelmav]

My question is, how does one tip at a buffet? Am I seriously tipping 18 % to a server who may only bring me drinks over the course of a meal? Is that standard for tipping at a buffet?

Yep thats right. We went to H & V as a group of 13 and the 18% was automatically included. Made the tip for our table approx $35, not bad for bringing drinks if your the 'server' and since we were paying OOP, this, I can say with certainty, is automatic. I otherwise would not have felt the service merited such a gratuity but there was no leeway in this matter.

 

[JimMIA]

To be fair, the folks saying that they're done with the Dining Plan aren't necessarily that "group of customers who Disney clearly does NOT want back..." you mentioned.

No, certainly not everyone who is "done with DDP" is in that group. In fact, I think that group of people is a pretty small percentage of the overall DDP customer base.

I think there are many families - particularly families with multiple kids <10 - who will still make out fine with DDP. We have 2A/1C, and we save a little bit of money, and enjoy the convenience of DDP.

But without the gratuity, it becomes a wash at best and we'll make fundamental changes in our dining habits. We'll go back to eating almost all meals offsite -- only going to WDW for occasional (like 1 per trip) character meals.

I think most families who choose not to use DDP in the future will be in the same boat as we are. Not mad at anybody, not deprived of "getting over" on anyone -- it just no longer makes financial sense for their family.

Unfortunately for Disney, that group will include many of their most frequent visitors and most loyal customers.

 

[angelmav]

No, certainly not everyone who is "done with DDP" is in that group. In fact, I think that group of people is a pretty small percentage of the overall DDP customer base.

I think there are many families - particularly families with multiple kids <10 - who will still make out fine with DDP. We have 2A/1C, and we save a little bit of money, and enjoy the convenience of DDP.

But without the gratuity, it becomes a wash at best and we'll make fundamental changes in our dining habits. We'll go back to eating almost all meals offsite -- only going to WDW for occasional (like 1 per trip) character meals.

I think most families who choose not to use DDP in the future will be in the same boat as we are. Not mad at anybody, not deprived of "getting over" on anyone -- it just no longer makes financial sense for their family.

Unfortunately for Disney, that group will include many of their most frequent visitors and most loyal customers.

Well said Jim, we regretted not having the DDP on this last trip since we stayed on property. We are strongly considering DVC, and while I realize they do not even have to extend the DDP to DVC, such a plan as is rumored would do us no good. In fact it would cause us to take our business off site or to remain in our resort rooms making use of the kitchen (something we feel is a real necessity anyway). It also would make venturing to other locals and parks much more appealing using only the resort as a home base.

 

[Brian Noble]

DDP was primarily a sleeping room promotion, not a dining promotion.

I believe that, partly, it is a dining promotion. I believe many many families who would not ordinarily eat one TS per day (or even two every three days) have been enticed to buy the package because it was "such a good deal". For these families, DDP is an upsell---they actually spend more on food than they would have left to their own devices, but of course get proportionally more in return.

What's more, over the past two years the package promotions have often been the best deal for the general public---those not holding APs or residing in Florida.

Restaurants in our home town are often equal to or better than Disney restaurants, at similar or lower price points. So, dining isn't that big a deal to us. We probably go to a TS every other day, or two out of every three, often choosing shorter CS meals for more time to play in the parks. We've never even come close to spending what the plan would cost.

Ultimately, DDP is just part of Destination Disney---keep every last dollar of every last guest inside the berm, and the more that is pre-purchased, the better for The Mouse. The executives have admitted as much.

 

[JimMIA]

For these families, DDP is an upsell---they actually spend more on food than they would have left to their own devices

I think you are right. In fact, I think a LOT of people who think they save huge on DDP actually pay more than they would have paid without DDP. Reminds me of something P.T. Barnum said... It's right on the tip of my tongue...

...but of course get proportionally more in return.

That is a subjective evaluation, and the answer depends on what the goal was. If the goal was to save money and they didn't save money...they didn't save money. If the objective was to eat better, they "got proportionately more in return."

Ultimately, DDP is just part of Destination Disney---keep every last dollar of every last guest inside the berm, and the more that is pre-purchased, the better for The Mouse. The executives have admitted as much.

Absolutely correct. And there is no reason why the executives shouldn't admit as much. Executives are in the business of making money for their employers...so of course they are willing to take credit when they succeed!

 

[naz022292]

There is one good reason Disney may want to exclude the tip from the plan... Now when you are offered dessert (or an appetizer if it is still included), you will have to pay a small amount out to get it (the tip on dessert could be almost $2.00). This may stop people from ordering EVERYTHING available to them just because it is included. When we went last year on the FREE dining plan we were excited to order appetizers the 1st night - we forced ourselves to EACH order dessert (we barely touched). by the 2nd night we tried to say no to most of our appetizers and dessert only to have the waitpeople attempt to talk us into all of this (sometimes it worked). If we knew we would have a financial responsibility (admittedly, small) we would have held our ground and said, "No Thankyou."

The thought of them taking out the tip could actually pay double for them.

 

[Lewisc]

Prior to DME and DDP I would stay offsite, if I couldn't get a reasonable deal onsite. My offsite stays included Swan/Dolphin and Gaylord Palms ($85 via Priceline). Last year I stayed at POP, the only thing else available were suites in a few of the deluxe hotels. The service at POP not only exceeded my expectation but was superior to the service I received at the deluxe properties. DDP is the only reason I stayed at POP as opposed to offsite.

I won't book DDP unless I think I'll save around 25% off food I'd normally order. DME by itself isn't enough to motivate me to only consider staying on site. I'll reserve judgement until the brochure is printed but it doesn't sound like the 2008 DDP is for me.

Brian--The prior meal plans became nothing more then pre-paid dining and they weren't that popular.

To be fair, the folks saying that they're done with the Dining Plan aren't necessarily that "group of customers who Disney clearly does NOT want back..." you mentioned. However, your point is well-taken: The sins of that "group of customers" is necessarily visited down on all of us because there is no way to separate those who intend to use the plan as intended from those who don't, in advance.

 

[bicker]

Unfortunately for Disney, that group will include many of their most frequent visitors and most loyal customers.

Well, if they're really loyal, then there may not be much for Disney to worry about.

 

[lenshanem]

Well, if they're really loyal, then there may not be much for Disney to worry about.

I'm loyal to Disney, we go on average three times a year - sometimes more. BUT, to be honest I'm getting tired of the over priced meals, continued decline in quality and worrying about booking out meals so far in advance to insure we get a good time slot. It is starting to become old after all these trips. I foresee us eating more in the room, eating more CS and possibly even going offsite to eat dinner. So yes, they will eventually start to lose money from my "loyal" family. As it is my oldest will be turning ten next year and the thought of paying adult buffet prices, etc. for her to eat two bites about kills me. I think we've seen all the characters by now anyway...

I told DH about the change tonight and he said w/o hesitation to cancel any DDP we have made for 2008.

 

[DCDisney]

I think you are right. In fact, I think a LOT of people who think they save huge on DDP actually pay more than they would have paid without DDP.

I know this has been true for us in the past but we did enjoy all the extras and financially it added up reasonably well. That said we won't do the DDP anymore if the tip and 1 course are removed. Best case scenario under the new plan is we average 28-30 for our entree/dessert or buffet meal. Our CS would be $12 max with a $3-4 dessert we often didn't eat beyond tasting so no real value plus we'd be just as happy with tap water as soda, and we averaged about $2.50 on snacks. Basically we'd mostly end up getting the CS dessert free. Plus on days where we choose a breakfast (once), a lunch (once), and much less expensive meal we enjoy (Sci Fi) we'd lose a lot of money. Just without tip OR 1 course might be worth it but without both, no way. I have ADR plans for both contingencies and ultimately without DDP we'll probably end up keeping all the cheaper meals and 1 expensive meal and we'll do more of the non-WDW owned places like Wolfgang Puck and RFC. I'll bring more breakfasty stuff and snack stuff too. I;m sure we'll spend way less than the DDP and the kids will probably be happier without restrictions anyway.

Yvonne

 

[mickey2000]

It just seems to be the DI$NEY WAY $$$$$$$$

 

[Sammie]

If I was guessing, I would say you will have the info you need in about 3 weeks. As with all things Disney, subject to change without notice.

 

[Sammie]

I don't think the dining plan was under-priced as much as Disney didn't anticipate how guests would use/abuse the plan. I doubt Disney anticipated the number of guests who wouldn't "waste" a child credit on an child meal. I don't think Disney anticipated the number of guests who would stretch their credits, thereby reducing restaurant capacity, by sharing meals. I don't think Disney anticipated the extent guests would be looking to "max" out the plan by gravitating to ordering the most expensive menu item and the most expensive restaurants.

I think the dining plan was fairly priced, based on how guest normally order food but not based on the ways guests were able to "game" the plan.

A previous meal plan became something like pay $20 and get $25 worth of food.

I would say your assessment of the situation is spot on.

 

[Jenna45]

I see that I am in the minority here, we would eat ts regardless if we had ddp or not, I will be disappointed if I have to tip oop losing the app is not such a big deal for me as we don't really care to eat that heavy anyway, my son is a meat eater and ddp is a good value for us as he can have a nice steak every night if he wants and with cs and snacks I think ddp will still be a good value for us, but I will keep track this August to be sure but the bottom line is 35.00 a day for 2+ meals even w/out tip will still be cheaper than our average dinner bill at disney or home

 

[Snow_White]

Without the appetizers or tips, I don't think the DDP would make financial sense for my family. For just my husband and I, appies and tips would add an extra $30-$40 to each TS meal, which would make the cost of the DDP more like $55-$60/day/person. Nah, no thanks; the DDE card would make more financial sense. We probably wouldn't eat *quite* as many TS meals either. However, if we can get the dining plan for free I'm sure we will continue to take advantage of it.

 

[Wendy31]

Originally Posted by Lewisc
I don't think the dining plan was under-priced as much as Disney didn't anticipate how guests would use/abuse the plan. I doubt Disney anticipated the number of guests who wouldn't "waste" a child credit on an child meal. I don't think Disney anticipated the number of guests who would stretch their credits, thereby reducing restaurant capacity, by sharing meals. I don't think Disney anticipated the extent guests would be looking to "max" out the plan by gravitating to ordering the most expensive menu item and the most expensive restaurants.

I think the dining plan was fairly priced, based on how guest normally order food but not based on the ways guests were able to "game" the plan.

A previous meal plan became something like pay $20 and get $25 worth of food.

I totally agree, and that's what kinda makes me upset about these rumored changes.

We used the DP for the past 2 years, and we didn't try to "max out" anything. I used my kids' credits for their meals. If I made ADR's for more meals than we had credits, we paid OOP. When we sat down at a restuarant, we didn't immediately look at the menu, find the most expensive thing, and then order it. We didn't try to share in order to save credits, & we ate what we would have normally eaten. A plus for us was getting dessert which we normally don't get and which made eating at Disney "special". I once used 1 whole snack credit on a 1 chocolate covered strawberry at Goofy's Candy Company.

I just have never understood the mentality of "Get everything you can for as little as you can!" & all those threads about getting the "most value" out of the DP anyway. To me, if you planned to eat 1 cs/day, 1 ts/day, & have 1 snack/day - you more than got your money's worth out of the DP. When you're paying $38.99/day for 2 meals & 1 snack, I don't understand the "need" to maximize your savings. And it appears that this type attitude may have instigated the rumored changes which is sad really.

The best thing about the DP for us was that everything was prepaid - including tip. We didn't have to worry about our food budget for our entire trip. There were a couple of times we paid an extra tip (beyond the tip from the DP) when we received extra service - but, basically, that was it.

So I'm sorry to hear about these rumored changes, and I really hope that the tip rumor proves false. I also hope that, if the appetizers are taken off the DP, they include soup and/or salad as an appetizer instead.