"Is ABD worth the $$$?" Discussion thread

[wanderlust7]

Wondering has anyone ever estimated the broken down cost of what you get with an ABD? So - $X worth for the hotels, $X for the meals, $X for the activities, $X for the guides?

The first time I saw the price for an ABD my eyes bugged out. But the more I read on here (very helpful for planning DIY trips ), the more I think maybe one day.... I like how the kids form their own group and do kid friendly activities while the adults tour something else.

 

[calypso726]

Wondering has anyone ever estimated the broken down cost of what you get with an ABD? So - $X worth for the hotels, $X for the meals, $X for the activities, $X for the guides?

The first time I saw the price for an ABD my eyes bugged out. But the more I read on here (very helpful for planning DIY trips ), the more I think maybe one day.... I like how the kids form their own group and do kid friendly activities while the adults tour something else.

I know several have tried to break down the cost of doing and ABD vs the same itinerary on their own. Until you've actually experienced one it is hard to understand and justify the cost. I was in the same boat with eyes bugging out on the price too but that was 9 ABDs ago I would say in most cases you can probably experience the same hotels and the same or similar places on an itinerary for less out of pocket but you still would not be comparing apples to apples with regards to the experience itself.

There are a number of intangibles that you simply can't put a price on except for what they may be worth to you. I've found most itineraries will include an experience that I would have never thought to do and wasn't really interested in experiencing but wound up being a highlight of the trip. I can't put a price on bringing something to the table that I would have never done but somehow made my vacation experience all the more meaningful and complete. Then there are the experiences that you can only get with ABD. Launching canoes off Urquhart Castle into Loch Ness for example. No one else is allowed to do that in Scotland. Other itineraries have their own unique ABD only experiences. In Italy we were allowed to take pictures INSIDE the Sistine Chapel. Now that is never a guarantee on the itinerary and is more luck of the draw, but I guarantee it never would have happened if I went on my own.

All guides are not created equal and I find ABD guides have their own intangible quality when it comes to the experience too. They add a great deal to the experience.

There is something to be said for not having to concern yourself with logistics or what to do when/if something goes wrong. There is value in not having to plan or stress about anything and just show up. After being blown away by the experience of my first ABD I got over the sticker shock pretty quickly and came to realize I'm getting what I paid for and then some. So now, it's just part of the vacation budget and we've cut out other things to afford it because we'd prefer to spend the money on our ABD trips. This is coming from someone with no kids that does both the family and adult only trips. I imagine if I had kids ABD would have even more intangible value to me just from listening to and watching the families on the trips. Hope this helps.

 

[acndis]

We are so firmly back in the ABD/guided travel camp after our trip to Alaska and then 5 on your own days in Canada. We spent a fortune on our own (much more than I budgeted) and though we had a complete blast and loved every minute of it, we won't do it again. My son has really been wanting to go to Washington DC which is a destination that you could easily do on your own for less. However, we will be booking the ABD next year. Logistics, unexpected expenses, tips, BREAKFAST etc. etc. etc. just have me watching my wallet EVERY minute when we are on our own. With the ABD, I was relaxed and got to enjoy the destination. ABD is a big upfront expense but is more than worth it for our family!

 

[Jess_S]

Wondering has anyone ever estimated the broken down cost of what you get with an ABD? So - $X worth for the hotels, $X for the meals, $X for the activities, $X for the guides?

The first time I saw the price for an ABD my eyes bugged out. But the more I read on here (very helpful for planning DIY trips ), the more I think maybe one day.... I like how the kids form their own group and do kid friendly activities while the adults tour something else.

I did a breakdown of sorts for the ABD that I booked for next year. The hotel expense alone ate up all but $1000 of the expense for one person in our party. After that I estimated cost for the included meals, transportation and guides based upon what we had paid for our last on your own trip to Costa Rica. My conclusion was that we were paying about a $4000 premium (total for 3 people) to travel with ABD vs. on our own. I don't know if this will be worth it for us or not yet. But I do know that we spend a lot of time on any trip trying to keep our son happy -- which is the opposite of relaxing. So if the ABD environment is more stimulating for him and DH and I are able to relax and enjoy the sites more, then it will be worth it.

My secondary conclusion is that ABD is actually a pretty solid value for parties of 2 because, as I said, the hotel cost alone ate up most of the first traveler's ABD fee. It seems to me like a lot of ABD's profit must be based upon larger parties where they are putting 3 or 4 in the same hotel room.

 

[sayhello]

My secondary conclusion is that ABD is actually a pretty solid value for parties of 2 because, as I said, the hotel cost alone ate up most of the first traveler's ABD fee. It seems to me like a lot of ABD's profit must be based upon larger parties where they are putting 3 or 4 in the same hotel room.

I'm pretty sure ABD has specially negotiated prices for those hotel rooms that you, as an individual, can't get. I wasn't able to book a second pre-day in Iceland through ABD, so I imagine the hotel only gave them a certain allotment.

Sayhello

 

[wanderlust7]

I did a breakdown of sorts for the ABD that I booked for next year. The hotel expense alone ate up all but $1000 of the expense for one person in our party. After that I estimated cost for the included meals, transportation and guides based upon what we had paid for our last on your own trip to Costa Rica. My conclusion was that we were paying about a $4000 premium (total for 3 people) to travel with ABD vs. on our own. I don't know if this will be worth it for us or not yet. But I do know that we spend a lot of time on any trip trying to keep our son happy -- which is the opposite of relaxing. So if the ABD environment is more stimulating for him and DH and I are able to relax and enjoy the sites more, then it will be worth it.

My secondary conclusion is that ABD is actually a pretty solid value for parties of 2 because, as I said, the hotel cost alone ate up most of the first traveler's ABD fee. It seems to me like a lot of ABD's profit must be based upon larger parties where they are putting 3 or 4 in the same hotel room.

Would you mind sharing the details of your calculations?

We would be 2 adults and 2 kids and I was wondering about being put in one room. If we wanted more space - would we be able to get 2 rooms (1 adult, 1 child in each) , and it would be the same cost?

I was trying to do my own guesstimate based on the Scotland ABD as an example - only because I was stealing ideas from there. To make it easy, I used 2 adults - cost would be $12000. Hotels I was guessing $500/night, so comes out to $3500. Meals I was guessing $20 breakfast, $30 lunch, $50 dinner per person - comes out to just under $1000. Is that reasonable? So that leaves $470/person per day for the guides, activities, and the intangibles.

I would love feedback on that. I think I need numbers to justify it to myself - even if it means using some fuzzy Disney math.

 

[aggiedog]

Regarding 3-4/room, you pay the same per adult/child, regardless of how many you put in the room. So in a way, you're getting more bang for your buck by only doing 2 people/room. Also, from what I've read, the 3rd person (can you even do 4 often?) is usually just a cot in the room. That would not make me happy after paying that much money.

We are a family of 6. I've looked into as many configurations as possible. The rate limiting step is that there needs to be an adult booked into each room.

 

[SingingMom]

All guides are not created equal and I find ABD guides have their own intangible quality when it comes to the experience too. They add a great deal to the experience.

There is something to be said for not having to concern yourself with logistics or what to do when/if something goes wrong. There is value in not having to plan or stress about anything and just show up. After being blown away by the experience of my first ABD I got over the sticker shock pretty quickly and came to realize I'm getting what I paid for and then some. So now, it's just part of the vacation budget and we've cut out other things to afford it because we'd prefer to spend the money on our ABD trips. This is coming from someone with no kids that does both the family and adult only trips. I imagine if I had kids ABD would have even more intangible value to me just from listening to and watching the families on the trips. Hope this helps.

THIS THIS THIS!!!
Two specific things that make ABD trips "worth" it for us are:
1. Staying in 5 star accommodations that we might not ourselves be able to book or afford at "non-Disney" negotiated prices.
2. The luxury coach/train/plane transportation that gets you from point a to point b, c, d, and e. I can't imagine trying to figure out how to get to certain attractions/locations on our own. It's SO stress free to just "follow the guides instructions". lol

 

[Jess_S]

Would you mind sharing the details of your calculations?

We would be 2 adults and 2 kids and I was wondering about being put in one room. If we wanted more space - would we be able to get 2 rooms (1 adult, 1 child in each) , and it would be the same cost?

I was trying to do my own guesstimate based on the Scotland ABD as an example - only because I was stealing ideas from there. To make it easy, I used 2 adults - cost would be $12000. Hotels I was guessing $500/night, so comes out to $3500. Meals I was guessing $20 breakfast, $30 lunch, $50 dinner per person - comes out to just under $1000. Is that reasonable? So that leaves $470/person per day for the guides, activities, and the intangibles.

I would love feedback on that. I think I need numbers to justify it to myself - even if it means using some fuzzy Disney math.

The first thing you need to know about my calculations is that we did receive the early booking discount from ABD, an early booking discount from DU and I also picked the cheapest week for the trip because I had that flexibility since my son is a preschooler. We're paying about $4900 per person.

The rack rate for the hotels actually was pretty close to $500 per night once I converted the price from pounds to dollars. I looked at the breakfast buffet price at the restaurants and added that per person cost to the room rate since we get breakfast every day. (After converting to dollars from pounds, it was basically $30 per person). At this point, we're at $600 per day for hotel and breakfast. That works out to $4200 for those two items for the week.

As I said, I used our food, transport and guide costs from past trips to estimate. It's not a perfect comparison, because we hired private drivers and guides. But if we weren't doing ABD, I would have hired private drivers and guides because I don't like being herded around. So for me, it's a close enough comparison. So guides and drivers we hired charged about $200 per half day (if I assume $200 pounds, then that's $265 per half day for each of those). So that's another $3710 if we assume we're using the services of a driver and guide every day. (In Scotland, we pretty much are). I'm not going to add in the cost of the additional guides because I wouldn't have booked a second guide if it was just my family.

So room, breakfast, guides and driver = $7900. Then there's the included lunches, dinners and activities and the airport transfer. That got me over $10,000 -- meaning that the cost of the intangible Disney magic worked out to be about $4000.

Really, none of this is a perfect comparison because if we did this trip on our own, we would fewer activities and we wouldn't hire a guide and driver every day. So we would have gone to Scotland for cheaper, but we wouldn't have done all the things that we're going to do with ABD. I will report back in June about whether we think the trip was worth it. It will depend entirely on whether my husband is happy because he's the one that has complained that he can't relax while traveling with our son.

 

[wanderlust7]

The first thing you need to know about my calculations is that we did receive the early booking discount from ABD, an early booking discount from DU and I also picked the cheapest week for the trip because I had that flexibility since my son is a preschooler. We're paying about $4900 per person.

The rack rate for the hotels actually was pretty close to $500 per night once I converted the price from pounds to dollars. I looked at the breakfast buffet price at the restaurants and added that per person cost to the room rate since we get breakfast every day. (After converting to dollars from pounds, it was basically $30 per person). At this point, we're at $600 per day for hotel and breakfast. That works out to $4200 for those two items for the week.

As I said, I used our food, transport and guide costs from past trips to estimate. It's not a perfect comparison, because we hired private drivers and guides. But if we weren't doing ABD, I would have hired private drivers and guides because I don't like being herded around. So for me, it's a close enough comparison. So guides and drivers we hired charged about $200 per half day (if I assume $200 pounds, then that's $265 per half day for each of those). So that's another $3710 if we assume we're using the services of a driver and guide every day. (In Scotland, we pretty much are). I'm not going to add in the cost of the additional guides because I wouldn't have booked a second guide if it was just my family.

So room, breakfast, guides and driver = $7900. Then there's the included lunches, dinners and activities and the airport transfer. That got me over $10,000 -- meaning that the cost of the intangible Disney magic worked out to be about $4000.

Really, none of this is a perfect comparison because if we did this trip on our own, we would fewer activities and we wouldn't hire a guide and driver every day. So we would have gone to Scotland for cheaper, but we wouldn't have done all the things that we're going to do with ABD. I will report back in June about whether we think the trip was worth it. It will depend entirely on whether my husband is happy because he's the one that has complained that he can't relax while traveling with our son.

Thank you! That was super helpful.

 

[TheRustyScupper]

"Is Adventures by Disney worth the $$$?"

1) ONLY if you are a Disneyphile.
2) For the most part, tours take you the same places.
3) And, we have been on many of tours.
4) TO us, an ABD tour does not hold enough value for the added cost versus other tours . . . it is like throwing away too much money for little added benefit.
5) The extra expense could almost pay for another vacation for the family.

 

[sayhello]

1) ONLY if you are a Disneyphile.

Um, no. I'm not a "Disneyphile". I greatly appreciate Disney and what they do, but it's because of the quality I've experienced from them. But I've only done 2 Disney cruises, and that's only because friends were doing it, or for the ABD. I haven't been to WDW in a few years. You don't have to be a Disneyphile to appreciate quality. ABD's are not "Disneyfied". You aren't traveling with Mickey and Minnie. You *are* traveling with the quality and expertise of "the Mouse". I just really think you're wrong on that point.

Sayhello

 

[Boston Tiger]

1) ONLY if you are a Disneyphile.
2) For the most part, tours take you the same places.
3) And, we have been on many of tours.
4) TO us, an ABD tour does not hold enough value for the added cost versus other tours . . . it is like throwing away too much money for little added benefit.
5) The extra expense could almost pay for another vacation for the family.

The cost for our Peru trip wasn't too far off from costs from other top tier providers. There really wasn't much for the die hard Disney fan in our family: a pin each day, a luggage tag and bag with the Disney logo, the movie night for the kids.

We could have saved money by going with a lower tier company, but there are trade offs for that. The intangibles are what make the ABD tour special: the kids form a group of their own, and will become best friends by the end of the trip; the adults get plenty of opportunities to bond, and can become like family in a very short time; the Guides will deal with any unexpected surprises so that you don't have to worry about anything.

The best example of the last on our trip: one of the adults got sick on Machu Picchu day. The guides arranged for him to take a private tour two days later while the rest of us were in Cusco. He would have been SOL if he was touring on his own or with a lower end group.

 

[calypso726]

1) ONLY if you are a Disneyphile.
2) For the most part, tours take you the same places.
3) And, we have been on many of tours.
4) TO us, an ABD tour does not hold enough value for the added cost versus other tours . . . it is like throwing away too much money for little added benefit.
5) The extra expense could almost pay for another vacation for the family.

1) No, that is incorrect as the only Disneyeque aspect of ABD is quality and safety. Disneyphiles appreciate Disney and the ABD trips are not Disneyfied.

2) Some of the places. On many tours there are places and experiences that are exclusively done with ABD and you can’t do on your own or with a different company.

3) Were any of them ABD tours? Not all tours are created equal. I've stayed at many hotels and resorts and I've dined at many restaurants. None the less, I will concede that there is a vast difference between staying at Holiday Inn compared to staying at Ashford Castle. I've enjoyed both types of stays but the experience was vastly different as was the cost. The difference in quality of food, service and experience is different between Cheesecake Factory and Joel Robuchon and so is the price.

4) That is a fair point as value is subjective. Personally, I find the added benefit to be great not little. My SIL and BIL went to Italy on their own a few years before we did last month with ABD. They spent 5 hours in a line to get inside the Basilica. We were in line just long enough to take photos before getting inside. They saw the Sistine Chapel with throngs of other people, crowded and prohibited from taking pictures. We had a private after hours tour of the Sistine Chapel and have tons of pictures from inside. I could go on but the point is, I know their trip was less expensive and I know they loved their vacation to Italy. I still prefer the trip I did. It was so good, I'd actually do it again with ABD if I didn't have so many other trips I'd like to do.

5) Another fair and valid point. Which is why I will also do vacations outside of ABD too.

 

[SingingMom]

1) ONLY if you are a Disneyphile.
2) For the most part, tours take you the same places.
3) And, we have been on many of tours.
4) TO us, an ABD tour does not hold enough value for the added cost versus other tours . . . it is like throwing away too much money for little added benefit.
5) The extra expense could almost pay for another vacation for the family.

Full disclosure- DD is a CM. But we've been traveling with ABD before that. (ABD is actually the REASON she is now a CM! )

Same places, maybe. Same "EXPERIENCE"?? No WAY!
Eiffel Tower, Versailles, and Louvre entrance - no lines. Private Flamenco lesson and performance in Spain - with Museum closing for private dinner. Dancing like Liesl INSIDE The Sound of Music's gazebo. A night in a real German castle. A private double decker London bus tour. First class on the Eurostar without worrying about luggage...

The ATTENTION and care given by the ABD Guides are second to none. I just can't agree that it is "little added benefit" for the money.

Each family has to decide what is best for them. For us - ABD is our choice!

 

[CaliforniaGirl09]

I am the farthest thing from a Disney Pollyanna, and I am very careful about my vacation spending. I am willing to spend $ for luxury or VIP experiences, but I still want to see value. I've been an ABD cheerleader at times, but I will also call them out when I think it is deserved. For example, you can search for my posts when they mucked with the Alaska Add-on itinerary and removed much of the concrete "value" of that experience, and also with the Baltic Add-on, which I enjoyed but felt as if the huge premium was not worth it *at all* in terms of the experiences received. That is the only ABD I felt as if I'd way overspent on a trip. I also questioned the value left in the Scotland itinerary when they eliminated the Lewis day and made other (in my opinion) not so great changes.

But--and this is a big but--when ABD is on, I think they are absolutely worth the cost of admission for those who can afford it and are looking for a more upscale vacation experience. Two of the trips that I've taken (Scotland the first year they ran it, and China last summer) have been the top two vacations we've ever taken and have made irreplaceable memories for us as a family.

It's like getting a box at a concert or sporting game versus sitting in the bleachers. You can enjoy the event from either place, but the experiences can be vastly different. Some people might prefer the experience from the bleachers--I know i did when I was young and loved being in a raucous crowd--and others might prefer the catered slightly removed pampered experience of the box. Neither is right or wrong, and to characterize a box as a waste of money simply because you can get in the game for much less is a very narrow way of looking at something and frankly, not helpful to someone who is considering an upscale product, which is what ABD is.

So for those looking for feedback on ABD trips and whether they are worth it, if you are looking for an upscale group travel experience then IMO yes, with the caveat that you want to look at the itinerary very closely and see what type of experiences a particular trip is offering. I look at the cost of the hotels, the number of meals included, the quality of the restaurants, the interior travel involved, and any advertised VIP access. For the ABD Baltic trip, I did this pre-analysis and assumed there would be other "special" experiences that weren't on the itinerary. That did not happen so now I do not assume VIP access unless it is advertised or I have read spoiler trip reports.

Actually, I think trip reports are a fabulous resource to get a sense of ABD trips and to see whether they might by "worth it" for your family. Raw number calculations are only part of the picture--only you can fill in how much of a premium you are willing to pay for the gap. I definitely thing there are some trips that leave a bigger profit margin for Disney, and whether that trip is worth it I imagine varies greatly from family to family. There were quite a few people who loved the ABD Baltic Add-on and thought it was worth it to them not to have to plan any excursions and have everything taken care of. They were willing to pay more for that than me. I was upset because in addition to the cattle call # of people on the trip, I felt like I could have had a much better experience doing it on my own with DCL excursions or through private tour operators.

Personally, I don't mind ABD making a profit, but I look for a small gap between the tangible costs (hotel, meals, tickets, transportation, etc) and the other unquantifiable experiences (i.e. the Disney premium). For me hassle value is part of that premium. For example, the England/France trip isn't one I'd ever do because I go to England frequently and have been to France a number of times as well. Both place are very easy to get around, and I'd rather stay at other hotels. The premium over doing it myself is too big to make it worth it for me. But for something like China, the numbers worked out much better. There were five--FIVE--interior flights. We stayed at 5 and 6 star hotels, which are the type of places I would have stayed on my own. We had VIP access to the Disney Parks in Hong Kong and Shanghai. A lot of meals were included, including some great restaurants. They were there to help navigate a place where English can be nonexistent and the culture is very different. The overall itinerary was fantastic and couldn't be easily replicated on our own due to the logistics involved. It was a first class experience from beginning to end and worth every penny. That being said, I signed up the first day and received a travel agent discount that helped with that calculation.

Could we have spent less money? Absolutely. But it would have been a very different trip, and we wouldn't have had dinner at Club 33 in Shanghai while watching the fireworks over the castle from the best vantage in the park.

My advice for people trying to make this calculation:
--ballpark hotel costs, meal costs, tickets, transportation costs and make sure they are the type of accommodation you would choose or want
--look for special/unique eperiences and whether there are any VIP type of experiences. How much are those worth to you?
--how much moving around is involved? Is there a language barrier to consider? How comfortable are you going to be doing it on your own?
--read trip reports to get a better idea of overall trip and experiences
--what are other companies offering and prices? Can you do it on your own?
--What is the opening day price of the ABD trip and are you getting any discounts? Because of the dynamic pricing structure, I think booking late makes that premium much harder to justify. I wouldn't do a trip where I knew I was spending thousands more than someone who booked before I did.
--Potential number of travelers. This is the biggest negative for me with ABD. I don't want to do any trips with more than 35 anymore. 15-25 is ideal. That means booking a trip that is less popular at an unpopular time, has lesser max numbers, or booking last minute.
--Is the trip guaranteed? Another huge negative with ABD. I would not book a trip unless it was guaranteed or I had another trip I could transfer the deposit to.

My $.02

 

[acndis]

One thing that has not been mentioned that is truly one of the biggest sellers of ABD for me is the wonderful people who go on these adventures. (I am sure it is similar on Tauck and some of the other tour providers we have all mentioned). I am not a group travel person and I have absolutely loved getting to meet our fellow adventurers. My son has made some wonderful friends and my husband and I have loved meeting other folks on our journeys. We keep in touch with at least one family from every trip! That's more social than I am at home! The quality of the group is something that's guaranteed on ABD (although I am not sure why but I am not questioning it). Everyone on all of our adventures has been on time, enthusiastic, and supportive. Doing things as a group is what makes it fun. When you are on your own, you don't have that comradery. And, the adventurers are a diverse group of people from all over the world. I don't think this is something you can put a price on, either.

 

[SingingMom]

One thing that has not been mentioned that is truly one of the biggest sellers of ABD for me is the wonderful people who go on these adventures. (I am sure it is similar on Tauck and some of the other tour providers we have all mentioned). I am not a group travel person and I have absolutely loved getting to meet our fellow adventurers. My son has made some wonderful friends and my husband and I have loved meeting other folks on our journeys. We keep in touch with at least one family from every trip! That's more social than I am at home! The quality of the group is something that's guaranteed on ABD (although I am not sure why but I am not questioning it). Everyone on all of our adventures has been on time, enthusiastic, and supportive. Doing things as a group is what makes it fun. When you are on your own, you don't have that comradery. And, the adventurers are a diverse group of people from all over the world. I don't think this is something you can put a price on, either.

I can't begin to gush enough about this post. lol We have made lifelong friends on each of our ABDS. Our first guides are the reason DD is a Disney CM. Friends from two different trips traveled to celebrate DD's college graduation with us. A number of families have visited DD on their vacations to WDW and taken her to dinner. They all call her their "Disney Daughter". We have wonderful friends from all parts of the country and in Europe now. I can't imagine our lives without the addition of these wonderful people - and ABD was the reason.

 

[OhanaCuz]

One thing that blew my mind getting to know people on our trip was how odd it was that we were first timers. Almost every single person we talked to was a repeat ABD customer. Some people were even in the double digits for the number of ABDs that they had taken. That really impressed me.

 

[RSM]

I can't begin to gush enough about this post. lol We have made lifelong friends on each of our ABDS. Our first guides are the reason DD is a Disney CM. Friends from two different trips traveled to celebrate DD's college graduation with us. A number of families have visited DD on their vacations to WDW and taken her to dinner. They all call her their "Disney Daughter". We have wonderful friends from all parts of the country and in Europe now. I can't imagine our lives without the addition of these wonderful people - and ABD was the reason.

In general, I fully agree with this sentiment. In 4 out of 5 of our trips, our DS has made friends that he still keeps in contact with. However, I think you should also consider what happens when it doesn't quite go as you envisioned. On our last ABD, we had this. Basically, as our DS14 tried to hang with a group of 6 other teens, he was essentially told by one of the other boys, that the teen group is these 3 boys and these 3 girls, and that was it. He should find another group to hang out with. He had about a 36 hour period of feeling bad, then one morning woke up and said to us that he came to experience Australia first and foremost. It was disappointing that he wasn't going to become friends with the other teens, but experiencing the country was why we went on the ABD. So, he hung with us and got to know alot of the other adults. There were some awkward moments along the way as the guides seemed to cater to the gang of 6, but overall he thoroughly enjoyed the Australia experience. My point in sharing this, is that you have to know how your child would handle a situation like this. I know for him, at 14 he was able to rationalize his priority. If this would have happened on a previous trip when he was 11 or 12, he would have been miserable. Again, for the most part we have had wonderful groups of kids, but don't always assume it will be that way. It can be 80% of the time, but be aware of how you would handle that 1 in 5 times where it may not be so great and your child may feel left out.