Intersting POS language

[RobDoc]

After thinking about the reports that MS is now enforcing the POS documents, at least regarding some issues, I browsed thru some of my POS booklets and found some interesting statements that are still contrary to what MS has been allowing.

Some of these are from old POS documents and certainly may be outdated, so if anyone has updated documents that contradict any of these specific statements, please quote those statements for comparison.

From the Summary Public Offering Statement 3/95:

Exhibit 2 - Home Resort Rules and Regulations - Section II, subsection 4 - Transferring Home Resort Vacation Points Between Club Members -
#3) -
Banked or Borrowed Home resort Vacation Points may not be Transferred.
#4) -
Transferred Home Resort Vacation Points may not be Banked, Borrowed, or returned to the Transferring Club Member.
#8) -
Only one (1) Transfer per Club Member, either as Transferee or Transferror, will be permitted during a given Use Year.

(In addition, the usual language regarding Transferred Home Resort Vacation Points retaining both Home Resort status and Use Year are clearly spelled out in this section.)

From the DVC HHI Component Site Public Offering Statement 8/98:

Exhibit "H" - DVC Membership Agreement for DVC @ HHI - Section IV, Use of Home Resort Vacation Points,
subsection 4.4 -
Banked Home Resort Vacation Points may not be used for rental or Transfer purposes.
subsection 4.5 -
Borrowed Home Resort Vacation Points may not be used for rental or Transfer purposes.

(Both of these documents also had sections stating that Banking and Borrowing may be suspended by DVC at any time.)

I was also provided a Summary POS for SSR dated 7/2003. It does have limited discussion for banking and borrowing, but makes no comment regarding whether they may be transferred. I could find no comment about Transferring points except that Transfers may be made by Club Members from time to time as set forth in the Home Resort Rules and Regulations. (My summary POS does not include that document.)

Please review your POS and post any variation in these descriptions.

 

[Plutofan]

Here is some interesting information that I pulled from our 2005 documents:

Product Understanding Checklist

6. You may rent, sell, transfer, or will your Ownership Interest. DVD has a right of first refusal to repurchase your Ownership Interest on the same terms and conditions, including financing, that your buyer has offered. DVD currently provides no assistance in resale or rental of your Ownership Interest. In the event you attempt to resell or rent your Ownership Interest, you would compete with DVD for buyers and renters at a substantial competitive disadvantage.

From Home Resort Rules and Regulations:
6. 3) Once Banked, Transferred Home Resort Vacation Points will expire at the end of the Transferring Club Member's next Use Year, unless they are used. In addition, Transferred Home Resort Vacation Points cannot be un-Banked or returned to their original Use Year.

6. 10) During a given Use Year, a Club Member may, per membership, either Transfer or receive Transferrred Vacation Points, but may not both Transfer and receive Transferred Vacation Points.

From III. Reservations:
6. b. 1) In the event that a Club Member has Ownership Interests in more than one DVC Resort, Home Resort Vacation Points from multiple DVC Resorts may be combined as DVC Vacation Points for reservations made less than seven (7) months in advance.

Does anyone know what section talks about the one transfer in per year so that I can have it for a reference?

 

[Plutofan]

Our SSR public offering statement references the following:

Section 4.8 Transfers: Transfers may be made by Club Members from time to time as set forth in the Home Resort Rules and Requlations

V. Rentals 5.1 Club Member Rentals. A Club Member may make a reseration to use the Vacation Homes for the Club Member's own use, make their use available to family or friends or guests, or rent them solely through the Club Member's own efforts. DVD's approval of a rental by a Club Member is not required after a reservation has been made in the renter's own name, and Club Members are permitted to rent their occupancy rights on terms and conditions that they may establish. No rental assistance is being offered by The TWDC Companies. All renters must comply with the rules and regulations affecting occupancy, and the renting Club Member will be responsible for the acts or omissions of the renters or any other person or persons permitted by the Club Member to us the Vacation Home. The TWDC Companies do not in any way represent or promote that a particular Vacation Home can be rented, or if it is rented, that any particular rental rate can be obtained for such rental. Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described in the Declaration is expressly prohibited. "Commercial purpose" includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Board, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. No Vacation Home may be divided or subdivided into a smaller Vacation Home.

 

[Beca]

Here's a quote from my POS: (dated 8/20/03)

(on page 43 of my POS)
2. All transferred home resort vacation points retain the use year of the transferring club member and expire at the end of the transferring club member's use year, UNLESS THEY ARE BANKED.

3. ONCE BANKED, transferred home resort vacation points will expire at the end of the transferring club member's next use year, unless they are used. In addition, transferred home resort vacation points cannot be un-banked, or returned to their original use year.



Beca

 

[DBBN]

After thinking about the reports that MS is now enforcing the POS documents, at least regarding some issues, I browsed thru some of my POS booklets and found some interesting statements that are still contrary to what MS has been allowing.

Some of these are from old POS documents and certainly may be outdated, so if anyone has updated documents that contradict any of these specific statements, please quote those statements for comparison.

From the Summary Public Offering Statement 3/95:

#8) -
Only one (1) Transfer per Club Member, either as Transferee or Transferror, will be permitted during a given Use Year.

My latest Multi-site POS dated 7/2001 has language that identifies that only one transfer per "MEMBERSHIP" is allowed rather than the "CLUB MEMBER" language used above.

Home Resort Rules and Regulations, Section II - Using Home Resort Vacation Points, Subsection 5 - Transferring Home Resort Vacation Points Between Club Members, SubPara 10), "Only one (1) transfer per MEMBERSHIP (emphasis added), either as Transferee or Transferor, will be permitted during a given use year".

It looks like language can change from year to year with no explanation or apparent reason, as far as I can tell anyway. I have to admit I read our POS only once from cover to cover when we purchased our master contract and although I understood much of it I didn't really have a complete understanding of how it would eventually affect our membership based on our pattern of point usage. Other than my first reading I've looked at it once or twice to look up a specific question I was looking to answer that's it. I guess I'll have to be more dilligent and pick it up more often.

 

[RobDoc]

Looks like a number of subtle changes have been made over the years - all without any public announcement or discussion with members. I'll assume this falls into the "changes may be made from time-to-time in order to balance point usage" category. There is language (I'll have to try to find the specific later today) which allows DVC to make these changes, overriding prior statements, without approval by the membership.

 

[dianeschlicht]

"Commercial purpose" includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Board, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

That one should scare a few folks!

 

[RobDoc]

"Commercial purpose" includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Board, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice.

I've always assumed it would take someone opening a hair salon, (or dental office) with a neon sign on the door of their 1BR villa, for the Board (in it's reasonable discretion) to make that conclusion. I'd be shocked if the Board ever made such a finding, but the aftermath would probably interesting to watch!

 

[dianeschlicht]

I've always assumed it would take someone opening a hair salon, (or dental office) with a neon sign on the door of their 1BR villa, for the Board (in it's reasonable discretion) to make that conclusion. I'd be shocked if the Board ever made such a finding, but the aftermath would probably interesting to watch!

LOL! You planning on hanging out your shingle at OKW, Doc?

 

[Plutofan]

What I am a little concerned about is that I have bought 5 DVC properties on the resale market. I bought them so that we could get the 11 month window since there are 12 of us that go to WDW each year and we love the Grand Villas. Prior to buying resale we purchased SSR directly from Disney. The only POS statement that we have ever received from Disney was with our SSR purchase. As you can see from my above posts this has different language than previous POS. We have never been given a POS for the other DVC resorts and have never been given anything in writting. The only correspondence from Disney was the blue membership card. Does the most recent POS apply to all DVC or just SSR? If each DVC has it own independent POS, which I would think not, then Disney should mail everyone an updated POS and give us written communications about any changes. I think that Disney forgot that we are the customer/owner and being kept up to date on changes should be a high priority. I have already seen several posts where DVC members are reconsidering their purchases. I have no problem with the changes but I am concerned about it hurting people that do not abuse the system.

 

[dianeschlicht]

Plutofan, with the resales, it would be up to the person selling the DVC points to get that POS to you. If they didn't think it was important, they may not have passed that along with the documents at the time of sale. It would not have come from Disney after the fact.

Frankly, I don't see any of this as a deterent to anything we do with DVC. Anyone who has to constantly rely on transfering points in probably didn't buy enough in the first place. Perhaps that's the angle DVC is looking at this from.

 

[RobDoc]

In another thread, Beca quoted a section from her POS:

"3. Amendments: DVCMC reserves the right to amend these rules and regulations, in its sole, absolute, and unfettered discretion. These changes may effect a club member's right to use, exchange and rent the club member's ownership interest and impose obligations upon the use and enjoyment of his or her ownership interest and the appurtenant club membership. Club members will be notified of any such changes through member services publications. Current publications supercede prior publications with respect to the terms and conditions of these rules and regulations."

It seems clear to me that DVC does have the right to make policy changes without any input from members. It also appears that they "will notify" members thru MS (perhaps some of this stuff is on the website?), but nothing there suggests to me that the changes can't take effect until the notice. I can't recall any "official" publication of the changes that already identified over the past several years- including the language from the 2003 POS.

Interesting!

 

[Cricket2]

Has it been that way all along Doc? I'm guessing that if they add language without asking us to say that they can add language without asking us, it won't hold up.

 

[paeskie]

I think the cost would be extraordinary to print and deliver an updated POS to every member when they make changes, however amendments should be put in writing in a newsletter or something. Members certainly have an indisputable right to know what the current Rules and Regulations are at all times.

 

[RobDoc]

Has it been that way all along Doc? I'm guessing that if they add language without asking us to say that they can add language without asking us, it won't hold up.

Yeah, that language existed in my original POS from 3/93- giving them the right to make changes without asking permission- with the exception of needing a confirmation vote to raise fees more than 15%.

IMO, most of the changes made have been to keep usage in balance- just like the Special Seasons Priority which was origianlly used for Cihristmas week. When it was apparent that such a system wasn't really needed for that time period (the resorts were never filled by that program), it was stopped- although they did make it clear it could be reinstituted in the future, even with different dates. (I expect that something like that will be used in 2041 and 2053 to balance availability with remaining points.)

These transfer policies could also have something to do with the inability to track transferred points- thus creating an imbalance for some resorts.

Along the same idea, DVC decided to add a slide at OKW without consulting those owners. The original cost of the pool was paid for by Disney, but additional expenses are now included in the fees for those owners.

 

[kimberh]

My multi site POS date 2/2006 states on transfers:
pg 46 #10: During a given Uy , A Club member may,per membership, either Transfer or Receive Transferred Vacation Points, but may not both transfer and receive Transferred Vacation Points.

 

[FinallyBoughtDVC]

Our SSR public offering statement references the following:

Section 4.8 Transfers: Transfers may be made by Club Members from time to time as set forth in the Home Resort Rules and Requlations

V. Rentals 5.1 Club Member Rentals. A Club Member may make a reseration to use the Vacation Homes for the Club Member's own use, make their use available to family or friends or guests, or rent them solely through the Club Member's own efforts. DVD's approval of a rental by a Club Member is not required after a reservation has been made in the renter's own name, and Club Members are permitted to rent their occupancy rights on terms and conditions that they may establish. No rental assistance is being offered by The TWDC Companies.

All renters must comply with the rules and regulations affecting occupancy, and the renting Club Member will be responsible for the acts or omissions of the renters or any other person or persons permitted by the Club Member to us the Vacation Home.

The TWDC Companies do not in any way represent or promote that a particular Vacation Home can be rented, or if it is rented, that any particular rental rate can be obtained for such rental. Use of Vacation Homes and recreational facilities for commercial purposes or any purposes other than the personal use described in the Declaration is expressly prohibited. "Commercial purpose" includes a pattern of rental activity or other occupancy by an Owner that the Board, in its reasonable discretion, could conclude constitutes a commercial enterprise or practice. No Vacation Home may be divided or subdivided into a smaller Vacation Home.

I always wondered about this, I'm glad you posted it. It's good to know that if you rent to someone and they trash the joint, you're responsible. Why would anyone in their right mind take such a risk and rent to someone they don't know?

I wonder how far that liability extends - could you imagine renting to Joe Schmo from Hobunk and he slips coming out of the shower and breaks a leg - will he sue you as "owner" of the facility (even if it is only .34 of 1%)?

 

[ClarabelleCow]

So I read this thread and I still don't get it!! If I have banked points, there is NO WAY TO TRANSFER THEM!! Is that the understanding? I need to either use them or loose them? But I can't rransfer them to another owner, but I can rent them right???

 

[Dean]

So I read this thread and I still don't get it!! If I have banked points, there is NO WAY TO TRANSFER THEM!! Is that the understanding? I need to either use them or loose them? But I can't rransfer them to another owner, but I can rent them right???

That is correct. The only exception in the past has been with multiple contracts of a single owner. You can reserve time and rent that out.

 

[ClarabelleCow]

That is correct. The only exception in the past has been with multiple contracts of a single owner. You can reserve time and rent that out.

Bummer and thanks!!!