Interesting Rolling Stone article on college debt

[LSUmiss]

But, like I pointed out upthread, there doesn't have to be "crushing debt". In NC, a Bachelor's degree in education can be had for $18k. I know each state is different. How in the world would $18k be crushing debt? It's a car payment - and that's if it's entirely financed. But so many people are choosing to go to $50k a year and up schools for that same degree. Sure, one may be more prestigious than another, but for the most part, the paycheck is the same. This doesn't only apply to teaching either. Low pay, sure, we should definitely work on that. But "government assistance"? No. Not for being a teacher.

But $18k is without living expenses. What if you cannot live at home for free. In this area housing costs are high b/c so many parents have $$$ & buy their kids houses or condos. If you go to school full time time, you can’t also work full time. Part jobs rarely pay enough to pay rent, car notes (or the $ for a used car), food, & other living expenses.

 

[saucymb]

But $18k is without living expenses. What if you cannot live at home for free. In this area housing costs are high b/c so many parents have $$$ & buy their kids houses or condos. If you go to school full time time, you can’t also work full time. Part jobs rarely pay enough to pay rent, car notes (or the $ for a used car), food, & other living expenses.

I think MOST parents would allow their kid to live at home during college for free, or for a reasonable amount of money. I'm just advocating that college students think hard about where they are going to put their money, their parents money, and their future earnings. For MOST people, blowing it on expensive dorms/meal plans/pricey tuition is not a good investment. There are ways to have an affordable education without racking up tens of thousands (or hundred's of thousands!) in debt. If parents have so much $$ that they can buy their kids a condo or house, then I don't think they are the ones worried about paying tuition.

 

[Colleen27]

No, I think the notion that an education in something you enjoy is somehow “owed to you” is messed up. That’s a luxury, not a necessity. And it’s honestly one of the reasons so many are up to their eyeballs in debt.

There has to be some middle ground there, though, because we need people in a lot of those "passion" roles. They are necessities for a functioning society. We need teachers and social workers and journalists and med techs and other poorly paid professionals. To dismiss the economic struggle of going into any of those roles as an entitlement mentality and say they should have been lawyers or engineers instead is to ignore the heart of the issue.

I just looked up tuition costs at the nearest 4-year University (45 minutes away). It happens to be where I went to college. If a student started in Fall 2017 and went for 8 semester to get a 4-year degree in ANYTHING, it would cost $28k. Including all fees, excluding books. I don't know, that sounds pretty reasonable to me. That works out to $150 a week - or 15 hours a week at a $10 an hour job.

That is pretty reasonable. The school I went to would be more than double that; a bachelors worth of credits costs over $60K in tuition and fees alone, more if you're in certain colleges or programs that have add-on fees over and above the base tuition rate. And that's at today's price. As I mentioned before, the per credit hour cost is 17% higher today than it was when I started there in the fall of 2014. There was an 8.5% hike in just one year, between my first and second years there.

And in my state, ignoring the costs of commuting is ignoring a huge part of the budget crunch students face. The cost of the dorm, at almost $10K/year (including meals), sounds high... but if it means the student can live without a car it might actually be cheaper to live on campus. But that doesn't seem to figure into the equation when we talk about this here on the middle-class DIS, I think because the assumption is the kid is going to have a car and the related expenses regardless.

On the flip side, both of my parents were teachers and they’re living quite comfortably in retirement (since the age of 57) on their pensions. It wasn’t always easy. Dad worked a lot of Summers, and coached sports almost the entire time he taught. We lived in an 800 square foot home, rarely had new cars. Mom busted her hump to complete her Masters after 50. And they both worked part time in retirement for about a decade. Now in their late 70’s, they still barter for free golf LOL. But, they own two homes and do pretty much what they want when they want, all debt free.

The path today would be harder, but not impossible.

I would argue that it would be just about impossible today, at least in my state. New teachers don't get pensions the way your parents' generation did, for one. They also don't get raises. A friend who started at a local public school in 2010 is still making the same salary she made in year one. And their share of health care costs goes up just about every year. Even with coaching and working summers, I doubt many teachers coming out of school now and stepping into salaries in the low-30K range are going to be able to stash enough in their 401ks to retire at 57 or to buy a vacation home. Especially not if they have even modest student loans to pay off as well.

 

[QueenIsabella]

NO ONE gets to choose where they begin in life & that can GREATLY affect the options of the trajectory ppl are able to choose. I don’t think ppl are “whining”, but telling their stories in case it may help others or more importantly change the system. I’m tired of ppl not acknowledging that they were more fortunate than others. I’m not saying that no one has made bad choices. I’m sure plenty have. But, sometimes ppl have to choose between 2 poor choices & neither is good. This is not my original thought but an analogy that was once told to me is it’s like hitting a home run & talking about how much you achieved WHILE judging others who weren’t as successful, but you got to start from
2nd base & didn’t even realize it.

Um...yeah. I grew up poor. My dad was forced to quit HS to support his family. My mom had a teaching degree, but couldn't work due to mental illness. I got through college on grants, loans, scholarships, and hard work. I got an engineering degree because I was strong in math and science--it actually wasn't the best choice for me, I didn't care for it, but I was able to earn decent money while plotting my next move. I also married well, if by that you mean I married someone with a degree and a career (who's also a great guy). We put off having children until our student loans were paid off. Just about the only "advantage" that I can think that I had was that I was born in the US, where public education is available. Maybe you could consider it an advantage to have been poor enough to qualify for Pell grants (called BEOG and SEOG, if memory serves, when I got them).

There ARE options available to pretty much everyone. There are community colleges in almost every county in the US. There are trade schools--a large number at the HS level, so a person could get a jump on a good job at 18. A student could work and go to school part time, work and save money for tuition, live at home, live with a roommate or three, go the community college route, find a job with employer-reimbursed tuition. Some options might be more appropriate than others, but whether you start at home plate or on third base, you need to work with the circumstances you have.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

But, like I pointed out upthread, there doesn't have to be "crushing debt". In NC, a Bachelor's degree in education can be had for $18k. I know each state is different. How in the world would $18k be crushing debt? It's a car payment - and that's if it's entirely financed. But so many people are choosing to go to $50k a year and up schools for that same degree. Sure, one may be more prestigious than another, but for the most part, the paycheck is the same. This doesn't only apply to teaching either. Low pay, sure, we should definitely work on that. But "government assistance"? No. Not for being a teacher.

18K wouldn't be crushing debt for a lot of people unless where they live their pay along with other expenses is much higher. But going to school for a Bachelor's degree in education for 18K total would be unreasonable for many different people. I agree if there are other options than going 50K per year but 18k for 4 years is really really good deal.

My alma mater is known for being an affordable 4-year University..but you're not going to be able to graduate----even if you went to community college for a while and transfered your credits-----for 18k total. Plus out-of-state tuition is much higher. In-state tuition according to this one source for 1 year for the 2016-2017 school year for my alma mater including campus fees was over $10,500 in tuition alone (30 credit hours worth which is 15 credit hours per semester) and that rate is below average for the nation, below average for the region and below average for the state. Now those figures are higher for the 2017-2018 school year.

 

[saucymb]

18K wouldn't be crushing debt for a lot of people unless where they live their pay along with other expenses is much higher. But going to school for a Bachelor's degree in education for 18K total would be unreasonable for many different people. I agree if there are other options than going 50K per year but 18k for 4 years is really really good deal.

I'm not following why $18k would be unreasonable for many different people.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I'm not following why $18k would be unreasonable for many different people.

Because to get a 4 year degree for 18k total is unreasonable for most of the nation. Just understand that your figure of 18K is specific to your state and with your knowledge. I totally agree people can find different schools to go to instead of going to the nice nice school but not everyone who pays more than your 18k figure is going to the nice nice school. Sometimes they are going to the most affordable option around.

I said 18k wouldn't be crushing debt for a lot of people which is likely true.

 

[saucymb]

Because to get a 4 year degree for 18k total is unreasonable for most of the nation. Just understand that your figure of 18K is specific to your state and with your knowledge. I totally agree people can find different schools to go to instead of going to the nice nice school but not everyone who pays more than your 18k figure is going to the nice nice school. Sometimes they are going to the most affordable option around.

I said 18k wouldn't be crushing debt for a lot of people which is likely true.

Gotcha.

My thought is that if someone is really looking for a great education at a great price, and are not finding one that they can afford in their own state, then perhaps they should look at other states. If the out-of-state tuition is still too high, but in-state is great (say, $18k!!), then take a year or two off, move to that state, and go that route. Sure, it involves the inconvenience of moving and living out of state for a few years. But sacrifices have to be made if there are no other affordable opportunities!

 

[Hikergirl]

I'm not following why $18k would be unreasonable for many different people.

18K is very reasonable, but unfortunately I don't think it is reasonable to expect everyone to be able to attend college for 4 years and it only costs them 18K.
My dd is doing the most inexpensive option to go to school for what she wants to pursue. We do not have any schools in commuting distance for her to attend, so we have to include her living expenses in the cost of her college education. 18K wouldn't even cover rent for 4 years.

 

[LSUmiss]

I think MOST parents would allow their kid to live at home during college for free, or for a reasonable amount of money. I'm just advocating that college students think hard about where they are going to put their money, their parents money, and their future earnings. For MOST people, blowing it on expensive dorms/meal plans/pricey tuition is not a good investment. There are ways to have an affordable education without racking up tens of thousands (or hundred's of thousands!) in debt. If parents have so much $$ that they can buy their kids a condo or house, then I don't think they are the ones worried about paying tuition.

That’s not true about MOST in certain areas/states. That only works if you live near a university. And not everyone’s parents can afford to continue to support their kids through college. I have known many who couldn’t. I think it’s all about perspective & personal experience when you’re able to say MOST. I didn’t know anyone who lived at home when I was in college b/c we were all from places over 60-90 miles a way with a 2 hour plus commute with traffic. They were all from working class families too so none of their parents were able to pay for college. There were plenty more ppl like us. I wasn’t referring to the ppl buying condos as being the ones who couldn’t afford college. That goes without saying. My point was housing was not affordable due to prices being driven up by this & b/c it is a football town so property around campus is very costly. And this is all for a state school. I’m not whining about my situation b/c I did get a degree that allows me to afford my loans. My point is that there has been a lot of oversimplification in this thread about how “easy” & “affordable” things can be & that’s just not always the case. I fully believe personally for me & my family that if you go to college it should be worth your time & $ degree wise. But, I get that we need teachers & other low paying professions that still require a college education. And the current system is failing these ppl. It was different years ago as many have pointed out, but the cuts to many programs & university budgets have made things much less affordable & obtainable for a large population of ppl in many states.

 

[Turn the Page]

I think MOST parents would allow their kid to live at home during college for free, or for a reasonable amount of money. I'm just advocating that college students think hard about where they are going to put their money, their parents money, and their future earnings. For MOST people, blowing it on expensive dorms/meal plans/pricey tuition is not a good investment. There are ways to have an affordable education without racking up tens of thousands (or hundred's of thousands!) in debt. If parents have so much $$ that they can buy their kids a condo or house, then I don't think they are the ones worried about paying tuition.

That depends, of course, on how far away you live from a 4 year university. Not everyone has that luxury. The closest four year university to where we live (not counting extension campuses and things) is 2 hours away and believe me that is NOT a drive you want to make in the winter. Some people just don't have the option to live at home for free. It's great if you do but it just isn't feasible for a large chunk of the student population.

 

[Hikergirl]

NYS offers free tuition for families under a certain income level. It does not cover room and board, and other fees which are a large portion of the costs. Most, if not all State U's require a student to live on campus for first year.
My dd will have to live on campus even as a transfer student. You can live off campus after you turn 21, but for most kids that is their Senior year anyway. I'm not sure if that is a rule for all the State schools though.
It helps alot of families, but those room and board charges are going to add up over 4 years.

 

[Christine]

Because to get a 4 year degree for 18k total is unreasonable for most of the nation. Just understand that your figure of 18K is specific to your state and with your knowledge. I totally agree people can find different schools to go to instead of going to the nice nice school but not everyone who pays more than your 18k figure is going to the nice nice school. Sometimes they are going to the most affordable option around.

I said 18k wouldn't be crushing debt for a lot of people which is likely true.

I agree. $18K is very reasonable debt for 4 years of college. That wasn't the issue. The issue is finding tuition at $18K for 4 years. My son is currently in a mid-level public university. His tuition is $5,200 per semester. All of the public universities charge around that much. Certainly it is much cheaper than a state that borders us, but obviously not as cheap as North Carolina. I think it's very unrealistic to think it's easy to get a 4 year degree for that price. Yes, it obviously exists, but not everywhere. To your earlier point, I actually don't think it would have been that doable for either one of my children to graduate from high school, put off college for 2 years and get a job in North Carolina that they could support themselves on with just a high school degree.

 

[Hikergirl]

I agree. $18K is very reasonable debt for 4 years of college. That wasn't the issue. The issue is finding tuition at $18K for 4 years. My son is currently in a mid-level public university. His tuition is $5,200 per semester. All of the public universities charge around that much. Certainly it is much cheaper than a state that borders us, but obviously not as cheap as North Carolina. I think it's very unrealistic to think it's easy to get a 4 year degree for that price. Yes, it obviously exists, but not everywhere. To your earlier point, I actually don't think it would have been that doable for either one of my children to graduate from high school, put off college for 2 years and get a job in North Carolina that they could support themselves on with just a high school degree.

I don't think that would be doable for most 17-18 year olds graduating from HS.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Gotcha.

My thought is that if someone is really looking for a great education at a great price, and are not finding one that they can afford in their own state, then perhaps they should look at other states. If the out-of-state tuition is still too high, but in-state is great (say, $18k!!), then take a year or two off, move to that state, and go that route. Sure, it involves the inconvenience of moving and living out of state for a few years. But sacrifices have to be made if there are no other affordable opportunities!

Yeah....out of state tuition....it can be a killer. Even moving to another state you have residency requirements too. You also have to consider the feasibility of moving to another state simply to get a lower per credit hour/overall less per year cost. Things like insurance, job pay, rent, etc all need to be factors. Doesn't mean it's not doable just that you need to consider all factors combined rather than chasing after that lower per year cost without considering the other things that go with that.

I know where you are coming from but I honestly think it's one of those "looks really good on paper but in practice not so much" things.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I agree. $18K is very reasonable debt for 4 years of college. That wasn't the issue. The issue is finding tuition at $18K for 4 years. My son is currently in a mid-level public university. His tuition is $5,200 per semester. All of the public universities charge around that much. Certainly it is much cheaper than a state that borders us, but obviously not as cheap as North Carolina. I think it's very unrealistic to think it's easy to get a 4 year degree for that price. Yes, it obviously exists, but not everywhere. To your earlier point, I actually don't think it would have been that doable for either one of my children to graduate from high school, put off college for 2 years and get a job in North Carolina that they could support themselves on with just a high school degree.

Yeah the previous poster had brought up putting college off for 2 years not me.

Putting off college is one of those things that to me is case by case. Because you truly do need to consider so many things. It absolutely works for some won't for all. Sorta like all things need to line up..you need to first be able to stay at your parents rent free to maximize savings, you need to be able to find a job that allows for you to save money since I suppose the whole reason in this instance to take 2 years off is to build up enough money, etc. You also have to ensure you still have the drive and determination to attend school after 2 years off. Like I said many pages ago my friends who left college after having started stayed gone. Making money became more important even if that money is likely less than they would if they had achieved getting their degree. They had no desire to go back and restart school--just too much of a hassle at that point. Obviously that's just them but it is something you would want to keep in mind for taking time off.

 

[Colleen27]

That depends, of course, on how far away you live from a 4 year university. Not everyone has that luxury. The closest four year university to where we live (not counting extension campuses and things) is 2 hours away and believe me that is NOT a drive you want to make in the winter. Some people just don't have the option to live at home for free. It's great if you do but it just isn't feasible for a large chunk of the student population.

And what the costs of car ownership and commuting are in your area. My son took a year off between high school and college to work and save for his own car, since he's going to community college and planning to commute. But now that he's looking at cars... The best insurance quote he got was $2800 for 6 months! That's for legal-minimum coverage on a 10 yo compact car, and he doesn't have any tickets. Our CC is opening dorms for the fall semester and he's thinking he might be better off with a dorm, or even a shared apartment within walking distance of campus, than with $6000 of insurance premiums plus upkeep on the car and gas for the 30 mile commute. So for now, his car fund is still in the bank and he's weighing his options (the school hasn't yet released the housing prices, nor have they announced how housing decisions will be made if demand exceeds the small and long anticipated supply).

 

[LSUmiss]

Um...yeah. I grew up poor. My dad was forced to quit HS to support his family. My mom had a teaching degree, but couldn't work due to mental illness. I got through college on grants, loans, scholarships, and hard work. I got an engineering degree because I was strong in math and science--it actually wasn't the best choice for me, I didn't care for it, but I was able to earn decent money while plotting my next move. I also married well, if by that you mean I married someone with a degree and a career (who's also a great guy). We put off having children until our student loans were paid off. Just about the only "advantage" that I can think that I had was that I was born in the US, where public education is available. Maybe you could consider it an advantage to have been poor enough to qualify for Pell grants (called BEOG and SEOG, if memory serves, when I got them).

There ARE options available to pretty much everyone. There are community colleges in almost every county in the US. There are trade schools--a large number at the HS level, so a person could get a jump on a good job at 18. A student could work and go to school part time, work and save money for tuition, live at home, live with a roommate or three, go the community college route, find a job with employer-reimbursed tuition. Some options might be more appropriate than others, but whether you start at home plate or on third base, you need to work with the circumstances you have.

I know that there are exceptions. And, other than what you have mentioned, I don’t know your circumstances. But, my dad was a single dad & $ was always tight so I paid for college myself. I have a good job now & also married well in the same sense you explained. But, while I had many disadvantages, my one MAJOR advantage was that I had a good family & a GREAT parent. I knew/know many who have not been so lucky. In my profession, I have encountered many who would not have had the wherewithal to navigate the system & succeed & it was not their fault. To say it doesn’t matter where one starts from or one’s circumstances in life, is to say that anyone unable to succeed must be the only one to blame & that’s simply not true. There are, of course, exceptions, but most ppl in similar circumstances end up with similar outcomes for a reason.

 

[wenrob]

Gotcha.

My thought is that if someone is really looking for a great education at a great price, and are not finding one that they can afford in their own state, then perhaps they should look at other states. If the out-of-state tuition is still too high, but in-state is great (say, $18k!!), then take a year or two off, move to that state, and go that route. Sure, it involves the inconvenience of moving and living out of state for a few years. But sacrifices have to be made if there are no other affordable opportunities!

And how do you propose a 17-19 year old kid right out high school with (most likely) minimal work experience will do this? Pick a state, hop on a bus and hope for the best? High School kids are fighting for minimum wage jobs with people in my age bracket and losing most of the time. I bleed money when I move across town with all the deposits and transfer fees. If I were to move out of state it would set me back quite a bit and I have decent credit, decent savings and a husband with a highly transferable job. So how is a kid who’s feet are barely wet going to do it? Let’s hear your plan. And remember, Mom & Dad can’t help because they can’t afford it.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

And what the costs of car ownership and commuting are in your area. My son took a year off between high school and college to work and save for his own car, since he's going to community college and planning to commute. But now that he's looking at cars... The best insurance quote he got was $2800 for 6 months! That's for legal-minimum coverage on a 10 yo compact car, and he doesn't have any tickets. Our CC is opening dorms for the fall semester and he's thinking he might be better off with a dorm, or even a shared apartment within walking distance of campus, than with $6000 of insurance premiums plus upkeep on the car and gas for the 30 mile commute. So for now, his car fund is still in the bank and he's weighing his options (the school hasn't yet released the housing prices, nor have they announced how housing decisions will be made if demand exceeds the small and long anticipated supply).

I feel for you in Michigan..assuming your son is staying there. MI insurance rates are crazy..but that is partly due to how the insurance is structured there.