Interesting Encounter with Service Dog Owner

[aubriee]

I wasn't sure whether to post this under Transportation or Disabilities: I just got back from WDW late Sunday night, but saw something the weekend before at my home airport. I was sitting right next to the counter, waiting for boarding time, when this man and his teenage daughter walked up, both with service dogs. He approached the gate agent and informed her they needed to either be upgraded to first class or else she needed to move the people out of the first row of coach, because they had to sit there with the dogs. The gate agent asked if they had called to notify the airlines that they had the service dogs. The man laughed (sneered really) and said no they hadn't, but he knew the rules and knew they got priority and he'd prefer to be moved up to first class if she pleased. You could tell his entitled attitude really irritated her. Instead she called up the people assigned to that first row of coach and told them they had just been upgraded to first class, because they had to place this man, his daughter, and two dogs in their seats. I thought the man was going to have a stroke. He then changed his tune and insisted that the people keep their coach seats and the gate agent move him and his daughter up to first class. When she refused and told him he really should have let the airlines know ahead of time that they had the service dogs, he got really huffy and told her he never notified the airlines and always got upgraded to first class when they arrived. They got priority boarding, but the other family got the free upgrade to first class. This guy was just one of the most obnoxious, entitled, individuals I had ever seen. His whole attitude was irritating everyone sitting in the area. I have no idea what the dogs did, but they were wearing their vests. Maybe they sensed seizures or something. Both the man and his daughter were ambulatory. The problem wasn't the dogs, it was the man's obnoxious, sneering, entitled attitude.

 

[SueM in MN]

That is interesting.
If you post it on the Transportation Board, you will probably get mostly complaints about Service Dogs. I dont know if these people had actual SD or not, but needing a SD or being disabled does not make you a nice person and this guy was clearly NOT a nice person.
He was correct about the bulkhead seat, but not about requiring he get First Class. I think it was brilliant what the agent did and who she upgraded!
Many airlines don't presassign bulkhead seats unless the person requests it because of a disability. So chances are good that the people who were sent to First Class may have been disabled in some way and really needed the extra space from the bulkhead.

This is from the Department of Transportation's FAQs page. They we obviously looking at not forcing people with SDs to sit somewhere they didn't want to - not at people trying to use the system to get something they had not paid for.
Link to that page: http://www.iaadp.org/usdot-may2008-airline-guidance.html#guid

Section 382.81 – Seating Accommodations
*
24. Can an airline require passengers with a disability accompanied by service animals to sit in the bulkhead row?
*
Answer: No. As stated in 382.81 (c), a passenger with a disability traveling with a service animal must be provided, as the passenger requests, either a bulkhead seat or a seat other than a bulkhead seat that would accommodate the service animal subject to applicable safety regulations. If the passenger chooses a seat other than a bulkhead seat, the carrier is not required to permit the passenger to specify a particular seat of his or her choosing (e.g., “7C”) that he or she would not be entitled to under the carrier’s normal seat-selection procedures, except to the extent necessary to accommodate the animal as required by sections 382.117(b) and (c) of the rule.
*
25. May a carrier exclude a passenger with a disability seeking to travel with a service animal from his or her specific assigned seat or require that passenger to sit in a particular seat in the cabin? *
*
Answer: *No, except to comply with FAA or applicable foreign government safety regulations. *A service animal may be placed at the feet of a person with a disability at any bulkhead seat or in any other seat as long as when the animal is seated/placed/curled up on the floor, no part of the animal extends into the main aisle(s) of the aircraft and the service animal is not at an emergency exit row seat. *

 

[SueM in MN]

This is the part 382.117 that the other guideline referred to:

> If a service animal cannot be accommodated at the seat location of the qualified individual with a disability whom the animal is accompanying, the carrier shall offer the passenger the opportunity to move with the animal to a seat location in the same class of service, if present on the aircraft, where the animal can be accommodated, as an alternative to requiring that the animal travel in the cargo hold (see §382.117(c)).

Here's a link to that reference:
http://www.iaadp.org/usdot-may2008-airline-guidance.html#guid

So, if he could not be accommodated in the same class as the ticket he bought, he was to be given the opportunity to move to a seat in the same class.

 

[jlevis]

I have no idea if this man and his daughter had a legitimate need for a service dog or not. But, what they did will likely cause people who saw this exchange look at people who do need them with suspicion. Kudos to the gate agent.

 

[Disneykidsdad]

These people are the one's that make it harder on the people with service dogs that follow all the rules. My wife and I travel with our daughter and her service dog. Wherever we go we make sure we inform people about the dog. Especially the airlines. I have never even thought to demand to be bumped up to first class. I love how the gate agent solved the problem.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

This is the part 382.117 that the other guideline referred to:

> If a service animal cannot be accommodated at the seat location of the qualified individual with a disability whom the animal is accompanying, the carrier shall offer the passenger the opportunity to move with the animal to a seat location in the same class of service, if present on the aircraft, where the animal can be accommodated, as an alternative to requiring that the animal travel in the cargo hold (see §382.117(c)).

Here's a link to that reference:
http://www.iaadp.org/usdot-may2008-airline-guidance.html#guid

So, if he could not be accommodated in the same class as the ticket he bought, he was to be given the opportunity to move to a seat in the same class.

Sue, I have alot of respect of your knowledge and opinions.............so please tell me.............what is the problem with service and trained support dogs/animals having written certificates...proving they are service/support animals???



I smell a rat with this guy......like its a case of *I want my pet with me*.....


Just asking!

AKK

 

[WheeledTraveler]

For the record, legally the airlines can't require people to inform them ahead of time about service animals, however, it is considered a courtesy (and a lot easier to get your needs met!) if you do. Same goes for wheelchair users. (Although, I've been told by Southwest recently that unless I'm traveling with a power wheelchair they don't want to be notified ahead of time.)

That man however was rude and as Sue has shown, wrong about the upgrade to first class. I've not heard of the upgrade happening to friends of mine with service dogs so I also question his line about his "usually" being upgraded. Personally, I wouldn'tcare whether he'd informed the airline ahead of time or not if he'd been polite about it since legally it can be recommended, but not required. There is no excuse for how he behaved, however. My experience as a wheelchair user (I try to inform airlines ahead of time, but I don't always manage it and I've had about 50% success of it making it into the system when I do inform airlines) is that generally airlines will do their best to accommodate me on the day if necessary, but I'm always polite about it. The only time I've ever made a fuss is when I'd called ahead to inform them I was a wheelchair user and what my seating requirements were, had appropriate seats assigned, and then had other people change my seat because *they* didn't think it was appropriate seats for a wheelchair user. But even then, politeness when making my fuss was a lot more useful than rudeness would have been.

I really hope the agent at the counter doesn't hold this guy against all other service dog users

 

[buffettgirl]

Service dogs in the diabetes community are becoming more and more common and I have a friend with a dog for her daughter. This friend believes in pushing the envelope at every step of the way - so arriving at a new store with the dog (no vest, because that is not required by law) and then she will not answer questions beyond "it's a service dog". Because that also "is the law". I feel she's doing a HUGE disservice to others by being so pedantic about "the law" regarding a dog that looks like a pet for a teenager who doesn't look "disabled".

Maybe airline guy and my friend should hook up because I could totally see her doing this.

 

[crashbb]

This is the part 382.117 that the other guideline referred to:

> If a service animal cannot be accommodated at the seat location of the qualified individual with a disability whom the animal is accompanying, the carrier shall offer the passenger the opportunity to move with the animal to a seat location in the same class of service, if present on the aircraft, where the animal can be accommodated, as an alternative to requiring that the animal travel in the cargo hold (see §382.117(c)).

Here's a link to that reference:
http://www.iaadp.org/usdot-may2008-airline-guidance.html#guid

So, if he could not be accommodated in the same class as the ticket he bought, he was to be given the opportunity to move to a seat in the same class.

Sorry, maybe I'm having a brain fart, but I don't understand the bit that I bolded. If he "could not be accomodated in the same class as the ticket he bought", how would it be possible to "move to a seat in the same class"? We've just said that nothing in the class would accomate him.

 

[jlevis]

Sue, I have alot of respect of your knowledge and opinions.............so please tell me.............what is the problem with service and trained support dogs/animals having written certificates...proving they are service/support animals???



I smell a rat with this guy......like its a case of *I want my pet with me*.....


Just asking!

AKK

I'm not Sue and I sure don't speak for her. There is no standard or certification in place for service animals. There was a thread, I believe on this site, about a web site that will for a fee issue a certificate for your animal declaring it a service animal. They even provide a vest. Those who depend on these animals are the losers.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I'm not Sue and I sure don't speak for her. There is no standard or certification in place for service animals. There was a thread, I believe on this site, about a web site that will for a fee issue a certificate for your animal declaring it a service animal. They even provide a vest. Those who depend on these animals are the losers.

That is my point.......people who beleive the laws and rules don't apply to them and hide behind the ADA to bring thier pets wherever they wish are causing problems and issues for the folks that really need the help!

I heard about that site on the thread here and its a shame they can do that.

It seems that a proper governing body or group could be set up to issue certicates or certify real service/support animals.......they dont have to state what the dog/animal does, just that they are indeed a service/support dog/animal.

AKK

 

[WheeledTraveler]

There are several things with certificates.

1) They can be easily forged. Just like doctor's notes, certificates are pretty easy to come by on the internet or to make up on your own.

2) Quite a few service animals are self-trained by the owner and maybe a trainer. Sometimes this is a matter of convenience as they don't have time to wait for an organization to provide a dog, for other people it may be financial, and some people are good dog trainers themselves (or have experience training service dogs for organizations) so don't see the reason to pay for training. So how do you make sure all dogs get certified? And how do you keep it cost effective both for the certifying body and the user?

3) There are very few "standard" tasks among all service dogs, so it's not easy to come up with standardized set of requirements for certification. A service dog someone might have as a wheelchair user does completely different tasks from one assisting someone with autism whose dog would have different tasks from someone who needs an allergy alert dog. The only things that might be usable are "good behaviour" type tasks, but there's no reason someone couldn't train a pet to pass those tests and still not be a service dog.

4) It's outside the spirit of disability rights law. A wheelchair user doesn't need to show medical need to bring their wheelchair into a building, a service dog is just another sort of aid.

 

[bouncycat]

What that guy did is just horrible!! I see the "entitlement" Issue at Disney all the time. I don't have a service dog, but have been researching it to possibly train our Lab to be one, and I was amazed that they didn't need to be certified!! Our dog is already in tune to me, and my needs, so she wouldn't need much training at all. She's already helped me up from a fall, and follows me everywhere. I would NEVER think of using her as an "upgrade" of sorts!! That's just aweful that people do that. And, it does make it harder on those of us that have the genuine NEED for these types of aids.

 

[livndisney]

That is my point.......people who beleive the laws and rules don't apply to them and hide behind the ADA to bring thier pets wherever they wish are causing problems and issues for the folks that really need the help!

I heard about that site on the thread here and its a shame they can do that.

It seems that a proper governing body or group could be set up to issue certicates or certify real service/support animals.......they dont have to state what the dog/animal does, just that they are indeed a service/support dog/animal.

AKK

They don't need a site to help them fake a service animal. I will never forget the woman we encountered with her poodle. The poodle was running around and jumping on people. The woman just kept laughing and saying "shh don't tell anyone, but you can see he is not really a service animal. I just say that so I can bring him in".

Sadly, businesses are not enforcing the rules/laws that ARE in place. And people know it. Businesses can ask "are you disabled?", they can ask "what is the animal trained to do for you?". But most take the position of "we trust our customers to do the right thing".

That being said I support people with a need for a trained service animal. I just get mad when I see people abusing the law. In the long run it just makes things harder for those that follow the rules.

 

[aubriee]

To tell you truth I really think the dogs were actually service animals. The man's was a chocolate lab and the daughter's was a beagle, so both common breeds of service animals. Both also wore vests and were very well behaved. Neither dog was on a leash however, which I thought was a little odd, even though the lab stayed right beside the man and the girl held the beagle the whole time. The problem was with the man's entitled attitude. He was just so obnoxious and rude about the whole thing. He kept a sneer on his face. His attitude was like 'Ha Ha I gotcha. We're both handicapped and you'd better bow down to us, because I know the rules.'

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

To tell you truth I really think the dogs were actually service animals. The man's was a chocolate lab and the daughter's was a beagle, so both common breeds of service animals. Both also wore vests and were very well behaved. Neither dog was on a leash however, which I thought was a little odd, even though the lab stayed right beside the man and the girl held the beagle the whole time. The problem was with the man's entitled attitude. He was just so obnoxious and rude about the whole thing. He kept a sneer on his face. His attitude was like 'Ha Ha I gotcha. We're both handicapped and you'd better bow down to us, because I know the rules.'

As Ron White says..*YOU CAN"T FIX STUPID * and in this case *RUDE PEOPLE*


You could ever well be right that they are service Dogs..and maybe he was just playing the system to get into !st class free!


I don't know if a service/support dog is supposed to be leashed?......anyone know?

AKK

 

[LockShockBarrel]

We had pretty much the opposite happen years ago. We were on our way to disney and there was a woman sitting in the same row that had an absolute FIT about having to sit by us. "No the fur will get all over me!...and I'm allergic. You have to make them move" The way the seats were arrange was in a 2-3 pattern and the flight wasn't full so they put 2 of us in the 2 row then this lady, my father and the dog in the 3 row so there'd be an empty seat between them thus giving the dog as much room as possible. This woman screamed and demanded she be moved to first class because this was such a stressful situation and she should be compensated. The flight attendent said "I'll be right back, I just have to go check on something", then she came back and said to US "You and your family have been upgraded, grab your carryons and I'll move you up to first class" The woman tried to get up and say "No No No, it'd be easier if just I moved!" and the flight attendant turned to her and said "We'd rather have the dog".

 

[livndisney]

As Ron White says..*YOU CAN"T FIX STUPID * and in this case *RUDE PEOPLE*


You could ever well be right that they are service Dogs..and maybe he was just playing the system to get into !st class free!


I don't know if a service/support dog is supposed to be leashed?......anyone know?

AKK

http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

Under the ADA, service animals must be harnessed, leashed, or tethered, unless these devices interfere with the service animal’s work or the individual’s disability prevents using these devices. In that case, the individual must maintain control of the animal through voice, signal, or other effective controls.


And to clarify a support animal is not the same as a service animal.

Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets. The work or task a dog has been trained to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA.

 

[akcire]

My father has a service dog. He has flown twice with the dog. Since my father wants his dog as comfortable as possible, he purchases two seats. (Father is rather tall. This way the dog can lay down on the floor without hiting anyone else). The only time he had a problem was when the gate agent did not understand the coding on my father's ticket, and sat the dog in a seperate row to accomodate another disable passenger. Once my dad explained that seat 2 was for the dog--she got them straightened out in another row. They had the row of three seats alone. So my dad had his seat and the dog had the floor space of two seats.

My father likes to keep up with service dog related issues in our state. Locally a woman had a supposive service dog that bit another person. That person took her to court and sued her for a good amount of money. The lady thought since she called her animal a service dog she was exempt from liability. The lady was wrong, and in addition to getting a sizeable judgement against her-she got a lecture from the judge about her animal who was unruly in the courtroom (including using the bathroom on the floor).

I do wish there was some level of standardization that could occur. I am a pretty good judge when an animal is a service animal and when it is a pet (lots of people with service animals at a past job). More and more I am seeing people bring their pets places under the false guise of a service animal.

 

[toocherie]

what a horrible example that man is setting for his daughter!

I have a couple of friends who train service dogs and a couple of friends who have them for their autistic kids and know what a god-send these animals can be!

I do have a question however, that I'm been embarrassed to ask: on a long-distance flight, what does one do with one of these service dogs when they have to answer the call of nature? Use a potty pad? I'm just thinking I have a hard time not "going" on the five hour flight from LAX to Orlando!