Inspired by Ricapito & Bongo59

[barb45]

Well said rash and the4ofus! I didn't think this whole thing was about the CM's. I thought it was also about the upkeep, the cleanliness, client service etc. With that being said, it would be like going to a top-notch restaurant where the wait staff was rude and the place was dirty and continuing to go because the food was good. And how soon until all of this spills over into the parks (which I think it already has). You can make your own magic because the rides are still there. It doesn't have to be clean and the CM's can be rude and call you names - because it is up to you! We know this is absurd because the service is part of the appeal to any upscale business. Maybe some people think they are getting cheap hotel rooms close to the parks only. Well they are not cheap! After we pay the initial layout and the annual maintenance fees, we are still paying quite a bit per night for a "hotel" room. I am nothing but polite and grateful to the CM's but I do expect that I will be treated in the same manner. I also expect excellent service and a clean room - so shoot me bongo!

 

[goofy4tink]

What did we expect when we bought into DVC? A clean, well-maintained room, in a well-kept Disney resort. 5 star? No, no neccesary. If it were fewer points, I'd actually buy into the AllStars!!! I don't come to WDW to cook or lounge in a whirlpool tub. But, I do expect the same attitudes from the CMs that any 'regular' guest would get. DVC members shouldn't get a different attitude or level of service than those staying a 'for cash' room at BWI.

As people we are all different, have different ways of resolving issues. A CM should be taking each person/situation on it's own merit...not based on what the previous person did. I don't want to be penelized with a 'snotty' attitude because the person in line in front of me had a hissy fit over not getting a terrific view of whatever!!

Did we buy a 'piece of the Magic'? No, just a timeshare in which to make our own family magic. We have made magic at each and every resort we have stayed at. All I ask is for courteous and pleasant CM's.

So far, with one exception, this has been the case. And the one CM that I did encounter that was a little short with me I will choose to give the benefit of the doubt to. Seems she had a lot of destruction at her home due to Hurricane Charley. I guess she had had enough of us making comments on the heat/humidity that day...she just came back with a ''Well, at least you can have ice and air conditioning in your room!"

 

[Rash]

rash i choose my words very carefully........i said i "think" and "IF you" really believe that.........

Oh I see..so I can rationalize insulting someone just by adding qualifiers like "if" and "I think". I'll have to remember that.

.....my belief is that you think what Disney has marketed is what they must deliver...........my belief is, i come to expect what i bought in the POS and in the DVC contracts originally signed.

I doubt you'll find any reference to "luxury" or "quality" in the contracts you sign when you buy a Lexus or stay at the Four Seasons. A contract is used to insure a level of agreement amongst all parties regarding the minimum level of responsibility of the contractor and contractee.

However, Lexus, for example, bases it's business model on providing a premium, luxury product and service, and it justifies it's higher price by doing so. That aint in the contract, but if they don't deliver what they market, they're business model and company fails.

Now, if Lexus' marketing surveys revealed that most of it's customers would still buy their cars even if they only provided the bare minumum outlined by the contract, what do you think would happen to their quality and service? It would be unnecessary to spend the time and money to create a quality product if you can get away with the bare contact minimum and still retain your customers.

Now, if your lowered expectations did become the majority, then Disney would no longer need, or even try to, provide "legendary service". Soon the Disney magic diminishes because you're surrounded by indifferent, sometimes rude, employees because Disney felt no need to train them to act otherwise. Why should they if their customers don't care? This is exactly what I meant by Disney eventually feeling like a Wal-Mart. People go to Wal-Mart for the low prices, and have come to expect indifferent service. "Hey, the price is low, we can't expect top-notch service". The low price comes at the expense of service, and , unfortunately, consumers have accepted that. Wal-Mart knows this, so they don't spend a lot of money training their cashiers in friendliness. If they did, prices would go up.So, when increasing numbers of those consumer brings their (and your) lowered service expectations to Disney, how long before Disney says - "hey, all they want is the parks and a place to stay, they don't expect service". Then we'd all suffer when Disney lowers it's customer service standards accordingly.

Of course, this will never happen. As much as I understand you're point of view, it will always be in the minority, because most consumers will always expect, and rightfully so, what is marketed to them, not the minimum contractual obligation. If you buy a Lexus and only expect what's in the contract you paid to much. Ditto for DVC. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's satisfactory. If you market a premium product and don't deliver, you will lose business, contract or no contract.

This is why WDWZues' original post and attitude are so disturbing. An employee with such a negative attitude toward a large portion of your customer base is like a cancer to your company. Such attitudes are minimized by proper and constant training and supervision. If Wdwzues attitude is becoming common amongst CM's, either Disney is aware of the problem and they don't care (Wal-martization), or they need to spend more time and money to continually train and closely supervise their staff to bring their professionalism up to the standards they currently market.

Now, some have made the point that many guests are rude and it's their fault too. I disagree. Yes, many guests are rude and there is no excuse for that. But that has ALWAYS been the case. You work with the public, a certain percentage of them are going to be rude. If that percentage seems higher these days (which I also disagree with, but that's a topic for another thread), it's still irrelevent. When you sell to the public, you get the public, warts and all. How you handle those warts defines your company and is vital to your survival.

Sorry this was so long. Doesn't seem it when your typing so fast!

 

[rbuzzotta]

Both have presented some points that I feel are correct.

I bought DVC expecting a clean room and courteous service. Most of the time I do get that but as is life, stuff happens and it is not quite what it should be!!

I am there to enjoy and relax with my family!! A rude bellman or loud neighbors above me can surely put a damper on my vacation but that is if I CHOOSE to let it damper my vacation.

My time with my family is way toooooo important to me to worry about anyone being rude!! As with me, I take that into account, walk away being courteous with a smile on my face and alter my day so that I do not encounter that situation again.

 

[Rash]

Both have presented some points that I feel are correct.

I bought DVC expecting a clean room and courteous service. Most of the time I do get that but as is life, stuff happens and it is not quite what it should be!!

I am there to enjoy and relax with my family!! A rude bellman or loud neighbors above me can surely put a damper on my vacation but that is if I CHOOSE to let it damper my vacation.

My time with my family is way toooooo important to me to worry about anyone being rude!! As with me, I take that into account, walk away being courteous with a smile on my face and alter my day so that I do not encounter that situation again.

Yours is a noble and kindhearted attitude, and it would be great if we could all adopt it. From a business standpoint,however, for Disney to expect everyone to be so forgiving would be suicide. As the saying goes, for every one dissatisfied customer who complains, there are 1000 others who don't. The ones who don't complain to Disney, WILL, however, go home and mention their bad experience to their friends and family, many of whom may be considering a trip to WDW or even purchasing DVC. Such negative feedback cannot be good for business. In fact, I've seen several posts from people considering DVC who read WDWZues' original post who admit they are having second thoughts about purchasing now if that type of attitude is common among CM's.

I, too, usually let an occasional bad service experience roll off and continue to enjoy my vacation. But if they become less occasional, it will be harder to let go. That's the danger here if we adjust are expectations to meet WDWZues' attitude, rather than insist that Disney adjust his attitude to deliver what was marketed to us when we purchased DVC.

 

[Kadorto]

Rash 2 Bongo 0

however, Rash is being penalized 2 pts for posting a link that doesn't work "WDW Ticket Cost Analyzer" So...we still have a tie

 

[Rash]

Rash 2 Bongo 0

however, Rash is being penalized 2 pts for posting a link that doesn't work "WDW Ticket Cost Analyzer" So...we still have a tie

Oh man! Thanks for bringing that to my attention! It works now - sorry to all who tried to download before. I'll re-post on a new thread with the correction.

 

[rbuzzotta]

Yours is a noble and kindhearted attitude, and it would be great if we could all adopt it. From a business standpoint,however, for Disney to expect everyone to be so forgiving would be suicide. As the saying goes, for every one dissatisfied customer who complains, there are 1000 others who don't. The ones who don't complain to Disney, WILL, however, go home and mention their bad experience to their friends and family, many of whom may be considering a trip to WDW or even purchasing DVC. Such negative feedback cannot be good for business. In fact, I've seen several posts from people considering DVC who read WDWZues' original post who admit they are having second thoughts about purchasing now if that type of attitude is common among CM's.

I, too, usually let an occasional bad service experience roll off and continue to enjoy my vacation. But if they become less occasional, it will be harder to let go. That's the danger here if we adjust are expectations to meet WDWZues' attitude, rather than insist that Disney adjust his attitude to deliver what was marketed to us when we purchased DVC.

Rash, I did not add, however, that I do voice my opinions to friends and family about bad service when I arrive home. Yes, I am one of those dissatisfied customers who "talks". I am one in my cirlce of family and friends that everyone asks me to plan their WDW trips!!!! My sister and her family just stayed at WL and you bet they were told to stay clear of the bellmen!!! (In my opinion, loss of money for the bell services!!!). It didn't bother my sister not to use bell services but could have possibly saved her from bad service!!!

yes, I am noble and have a kind heart............my family comes first and I must recognize the importance of family time at WDW without the daily stresses of life upon us!!

 

[greenban]

With all due respect, the post quoted below, is what I don't 'get'

I bought the DISNEY Vacation Club, not the Marriot Vacation Club, not the Swan and Dolphin Vacation club, but DISNEY Vacation Club. So why am I foolish to expect DISNEY quality, from a DISNEY brand?

This point alone is why I agree 100% with ricapito, and I don't accept the '...nowhere in the POS is DISNEY MAGIC mentioned...' line of thought. I bought into the DISNEY brand, and that is what I want. I don't think I was mislead, I don't believe I am too stupid to understand what I'm purchasing, and this is why I disagree 100% with Bongo59.

-Tony

the more i read here the more i realize many of you bought the marketing ploy of DVC...............but my point was and always will be go read the documents to see what you contractual bought then come talk to me.............I know i am correct............ricapito and those others think they know what they signed because the marketing gimmicks that swayed them..............Disney is a place where we make our magic.........and they just provide the venue...........they are not contractually bound to provide each and every DVC er with what that individual defines as the "Disney standard" or the "Magic" or "Pixiedust" I am truly astounded at what people truly expect from DVC..............And i am lost at where it came from and where they were promised it or in what document it was included?????? i reread all my disney papers today and not one gives me this info. I am left to be very happy with disney marketing since they have apparently done their job of convincing people that when you buy DVC feel you are somehow getting something they want...............and will come to expect. Good for us shareholders but maybe not so good for the rest of us DVCers who knew what buying a good timeshare was really about

 

[lllovell]

Ok fair enough, here's my viewpoint:

I think it's hysterical that the starter of the 16 page (waste of our time) thread voted in the poll!!!!

LMBO!!! I know - I saw that yesterday and am still laughing about it. If this guy was legit, he would have HAD to respond to the people that really were negative, I just know it.

*trolling trolling trolling*

Bongo, I think it is safe to say that your expectations are not ours. It is clear to me that you consider polite, friendly service to be only a 5 star quality and the rest of us don't. We expect Disney service and we will keep demanding it (most of us NOT at the top of our lungs or being rude, but maybe by just calling maintenance before leaving a room so the next guy doesn't have to deal with something that is wrong.) So, when you get down there and enjoy the landscaping and staff and other nice things, congrats - you are getting more than you expected. When I get down there and enjoy all of those wonderful things, I am home.

I don't expect them to turn down my sheets and leave me mints. I don't expect them to send balloons for my son if its his birthday. I don't expect anything for free just because someone spilled something in my room before I got there or because I cannot see palm tree #7 from my balcony. Sometimes, they go out of their way and do amazingly special things for people. THAT is what keeps up coming back. The fact that Disney magic is still happening. I could have bought at any timeshare I wanted to. I choose Disney because it is more than a timeshare. Yep, you are right - no promise of pixie dust in the contract - simply a promise of Disney service. I have NO problem with that at all, because that is WHY I bought in.

I, like many others, am saddened by the lack of customer service left in this country and I don't want it to be acceptable. I don't. I don't want to be checked in by surly teenagers that are simply waiting to get off work. I don't want to ask a question about the parks and get a blank stare. Its a package they sold me. I am thrilled to own it. You think that people here are unhappy with Disney and I think you are mistaken. I think what we are saying that we want service to remain the same as when we purchased. Clean rooms, beautiful grounds, great serivce, good restaurants, etc.

You know - with the Magic Your Way tickets and the new DDE plan being available to everyone and the free ride for you and your luggage for people staying on site, and the EMHs for on site guests, etc, etc, etc - it is VERY obvious that Disney is trying to keep people on the grounds and keep their money at Disney. Woopie!!! I am more than happy to shell it out, as long as they keep providing me with the same great service THEY MARKET.

The Disney name on the door indicates it is more than a timeshare. I don't expect them to make me happy, but I expect them to keep working hard to help me escape to the happiest place on earth when I am there. Its not even about me personally most of the time (interaction with CMs and Waiters, etc is really very small overall during our vacations if you compare it to family time together) but about the whole atmosphere.

People that are yelling "MEMEMEMEMEMEMEME" are everwhere in life now. I don't know how Disney needs to deal with it, but in the past, they dealt with it by tossing freebies at the unhappy customer. Obviously that is not working anymore because the number of people that are trying to take advantage of this has greatly increased. Are you wrong to yell when you dont have a specific view - yep. Are you wrong to be yell when you get assigned a smoking room upon arrival - yelling yes you are wrong - being upset nope, but you shouldn't have to worry about such things. Changes in the reservation rules are hopefully on the way (I am sure someone at DVC is reading all of this and I am sure even more people will start asking for smoking/non-smoking to be assigned at booking - if they are out of non-smoking rooms I can either take it or change my week!). Hopefully it will cut back on the number of unhappy people if change some of the booking/request policies. IT would seem to be in THEIR favor (Disney's) to make this happen.

I was not fish netted in. You expectations are less than mine. I have not been disappointed yet, but might be a some point enough to speak up - time will tell. But if I am, it will not be to get a better room or to get some freebies, it will be my little attempt to keep my "timeshare" up to the standard where it was when it was sold to me.

 

[barb45]

lllovell - very well said!! Thanks

 

[bongo59]

Oh I see..so I can rationalize insulting someone just by adding qualifiers like "if" and "I think". I'll have to remember that.



I doubt you'll find any reference to "luxury" or "quality" in the contracts you sign when you buy a Lexus or stay at the Four Seasons. A contract is used to insure a level of agreement amongst all parties regarding the minimum level of responsibility of the contractor and contractee.

However, Lexus, for example, bases it's business model on providing a premium, luxury product and service, and it justifies it's higher price by doing so. That aint in the contract, but if they don't deliver what they market, they're business model and company fails.

Now, if Lexus' marketing surveys revealed that most of it's customers would still buy their cars even if they only provided the bare minumum outlined by the contract, what do you think would happen to their quality and service? It would be unnecessary to spend the time and money to create a quality product if you can get away with the bare contact minimum and still retain your customers.

Now, if your lowered expectations did become the majority, then Disney would no longer need, or even try to, provide "legendary service". Soon the Disney magic diminishes because you're surrounded by indifferent, sometimes rude, employees because Disney felt no need to train them to act otherwise. Why should they if their customers don't care? This is exactly what I meant by Disney eventually feeling like a Wal-Mart. People go to Wal-Mart for the low prices, and have come to expect indifferent service. "Hey, the price is low, we can't expect top-notch service". The low price comes at the expense of service, and , unfortunately, consumers have accepted that. Wal-Mart knows this, so they don't spend a lot of money training their cashiers in friendliness. If they did, prices would go up.So, when increasing numbers of those consumer brings their (and your) lowered service expectations to Disney, how long before Disney says - "hey, all they want is the parks and a place to stay, they don't expect service". Then we'd all suffer when Disney lowers it's customer service standards accordingly.

Of course, this will never happen. As much as I understand you're point of view, it will always be in the minority, because most consumers will always expect, and rightfully so, what is marketed to them, not the minimum contractual obligation. If you buy a Lexus and only expect what's in the contract you paid to much. Ditto for DVC. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's satisfactory. If you market a premium product and don't deliver, you will lose business, contract or no contract.

This is why WDWZues' original post and attitude are so disturbing. An employee with such a negative attitude toward a large portion of your customer base is like a cancer to your company. Such attitudes are minimized by proper and constant training and supervision. If Wdwzues attitude is becoming common amongst CM's, either Disney is aware of the problem and they don't care (Wal-martization), or they need to spend more time and money to continually train and closely supervise their staff to bring their professionalism up to the standards they currently market.

Now, some have made the point that many guests are rude and it's their fault too. I disagree. Yes, many guests are rude and there is no excuse for that. But that has ALWAYS been the case. You work with the public, a certain percentage of them are going to be rude. If that percentage seems higher these days (which I also disagree with, but that's a topic for another thread), it's still irrelevent. When you sell to the public, you get the public, warts and all. How you handle those warts defines your company and is vital to your survival.

Sorry this was so long. Doesn't seem it when your typing so fast!

.............well i do own a lexus too and i dont hold them to their marketing standards either..........I bought on quality/value relationship..........Some consumers are different and i guess i an quite different than alot of you on here..........marketing and CM's being nice to me are not what makes or breaks my purchasing decisions on anything because quite frankly i dont value it.............me and mine can do just fine without great CS...........We go to WDW to be together pure and simple..........i think if you do make decisions like most of you seem to do then you are bound to be disappointed many more times than someone like me...............and i do spent a ton of time researching and doing due diligence before i buy anything so i wont be disappointed..........i do my homework on the front end..........i actually read the contracts............i think i am in the minority after reading these forums.........i know what is in the DVC contract because i read it.........i just wonder how many of the members fully read the whole thing and "get" what they really bought and not what they think they bought????

 

[Rash]

.......and i do spent a ton of time researching and doing due diligence before i buy..........i actually read the contracts............i think i am in the minority after reading these forum.........i know what is in the DVC contract because i read it.........i just wonder how many of the member fully read the whole thing and "get" what they really bought and not what they think they bought????

My guess is you are incorrect about this, but who knows. I think most of us are informed consumers who also do our homework and are fully aware what Disney's legal obligations are as outlined in the contract. I also think that most of us consider these obligations separately from the marketing claims Disney makes about DVC. If I encounter a rude CM, just because I can't sue doesn't mean I shouldn't care about it.

Perhaps a poll is in order - "Did you read the entire DVC contact in full before purchasing DVC?"

..........i think if you do make decisions like this then you are bound to be disappointed many more times than someone like me...............

I agree with you - if your expectations are low, you most likely will not be disappointed. Wal-Mart-ization.

 

[KNWVIKING]

***" I agree with you - if your expectations are low, you most likely will not be disappointed. Wal-Mart-ization."***


Ahhh... that's a slam dunk statement right there.

 

[jarestel]

For all of the talk bandied around about what is and is not in the sacred DVC contracts, I'm fairly sure that "Shut up, don't speak unless spoken to, and plaster a silly grin on your face whenever you're in the presence of Disney employees" ( indicating to the CM that the internal manufacturing of magic is in process ) is not in there either. I'd hate to think that good customer service has to be a contract item or else it need not be supplied. There are other ways to solve problems besides being rude or simply ignoring them because one doesn't want to "bother" a CM.

 

[DrTomorrow]

My guess is you are incorrect about this, but who knows. I think most of us are informed consumers who also do our homework and are fully aware what Disney's legal obligations are as outlined in the contract. I [...]
Perhaps a poll is in order - "Did you read the entire DVC contact in full before purchasing DVC?" [...]

I have to side with bongo on the "informed consumer" issue. There's a thread around here somewhere about friends and family who are DVC owners and don't even know about all the DVC resorts, much less the resale market, the renting market, the rate of dues increases over the DVC lifetime, banking/borrowing specifics, etc. And don't forget that a DIS poll captures a small, fanatic, on-line and very non-representative sample of DVC owners....

As for Wal-Martization, they must be meeting the needs of a significant number of customers; enough to continue growing. How many of you out there shop at the lower-price poor-customer-service big-box shops instead of paying more at a small, independent shop? Are people willing to forego customer service to save money? Looks like it. Is this the direction that Disney is headed in? I guess we'll see over the next few decades....

 

[Rash]

snip...As for Wal-Martization, they must be meeting the needs of a significant number of customers; enough to continue growing. How many of you out there shop at the lower-price poor-customer-service big-box shops instead of paying more at a small, independent shop? Are people willing to forego customer service to save money? Looks like it. ...

I agree completely. Many people complain about how Wal-Mart forces the small mom-and-pop stores out of business, yet those same people are the ones shopping at Wal-Mart and not supporting the independent store. They sacrifice good, personal customer service for a lower price. This is becoming the majority mindset of consumers in an increasingly self-serve country.

However, Wal-Mart's main marketing tactic is "Always Low Prices". They don't emphasize the service. So those who shop there are getting what was marketed to them. In Disney's case, the marketing stresses "legendary service", so I think it's reasonable for a consumer to expect that. As for the future, it's really up to Disney to decide whether it's core customers will be service oriented or price oriented. That's a marketing and business model decision. Whatever makes them the most $$$ will probably be their deciding factor, unfortunately. Not much magic in that. I bet Walt would cringe at this topic.

 

[greenban]

MID POLL RECAP:

2 to 1 agree with Ricapito. More interesting; by more than a 3 to one factor (22 to 7), DISers agree STRONGLY with Ricapito.

More News at Eleven.....


Most interesting to me is that we don't seem to be communicating well. I hear the Bongo59 Group (for lack of a better term) stating that a rude, nasty, snide or less than stellar CM would not ruin their trips. I don't see anyone in the Ricapito Group (again for lack of a better term) saying that either.

And no one has directly responded to my original post, that 'Customer Service' is dwindling in the parks, not just occassionally at DVC check-in. Or the fact that the Disney Brand is what I purchased. We ignore each other's direct statements, and cut & past abstracts from the DVC Website (Now there is an oxymoron) or the DVC POS.

Bongo drives a Lexus, something made him purchase the 'LEXUS' brand, and despite all of his articulate and reasoned statements, with human nature being what it is, I am sure some 'intangeables' also influenced his/her purchase!

I sadly think this mirrors the Red-Head, Blue-Head outright hatred on the debate...whoops community board at the present time. Of course, we are much more polite about our disagreements/views.

-Tony

 

[DrTomorrow]

snip Most interesting to me is that we don't seem to be communicating well. I hear the Bongo59 Group (for lack of a better term) stating that a rude, nasty, snide or less than stellar CM would not ruin their trips. I don't see anyone in the Ricapito Group (again for lack of a better term) saying that either.

And no one has directly responded to my original post, that 'Customer Service' is dwindling in the parks, not just occassionally at DVC check-in. Or the fact that the Disney Brand is what I purchased. We ignore each other's direct statements, and cut & past abstracts from the DVC Website (Now there is an oxymoron) or the DVC POS. [...]

Well, the poll was whether we agree with one of two long posts, each of which made many statements; since they are not black.and.white, it's difficult to discuss - and easy to obfuscate. For example, although I voted "strongly agree with bongo", on re-reading ricapito's quoted post, there are a few bits and pieces I agree with. For example "Cost containment is a fact of life"; can't dispute that. But I don't agree with the parts focusing on DVC'ers right to be demanding (of anything other than what was mutually agreed upon); I don't feel that Disney should treat my business as a privilege - they sell what they sell, I buy what I buy. And I certainly don't think of DVCers as investors in Disney: in DVC, yes, to the extent that we own/rent space for a finite time, but if you want to be an investor in Disney - buy stock.

As to greenban's OP about customer service, I don't believe that it has really dropped that much. I first went to WDW in '73 (11th floor CR Tower - MK View w00t!) and have been many times since, as child, parent of DS, as an empty nester and now as a DVC owner. I can't say that Disney CMs are providing significantly less of what I expect of them. I find that the vast majority of them are really trying quite hard to live up to expectations (often unrealistic ones, IMHO) and usually provide a smile, a wave and a helpful attitude. Then again, so do I.

All this hoo-ha has put three interesting ideas in my head.
1. Was Disney customer service "back in the day" really as good as everyone says it was, or has the passage of time caused folks to remember it as much better than it really was?
2. Given: Walt was a visionary. However, even visionaries find that changes in society can render their visions less appropriate. When DL opened, men wore hats and ties, women wore dresses and children their Sunday best to visit the park. While one can bemoan the loss of the "good old days" - like many who fly complain about 'cattle-cars' - it's a fact that society has changed. Disney has to adapt to the current culture to survive, regardless of a few who wish for things to stay the same.
3. I really would like to see how the opening of DL, and of WDW, would have been discussed had their been the Internet, and the DIS, back then. In the '70s, an irate CM would have had an audience limited to whoever was in ear-shot; now they can be heard around the world. I've read a few of the horror stories about the parks' opening; how much more 'dirty laundry' would we have heard if we were all "on-line" back then?

Depending on anyone else for your happiness is a losing proposition.
IMHO - YMMV

 

[DisneySpence]

The4ofus we actually do eat a a place like you described we eat at the outback quite often the service is crap and the servers are useless but the food is so good we can't help going back. We also shop at the small shops I like to snub the big box whenever I can wether it be Wal-Mart Best Buy Futureshop etc.