Infant Fares on Southwest...

[DISNEYFOS]

Since 9/11, I'm not sure you can really rely on an empty seat for your carseat..Less flights are scheduled and therefore most flights are at capacity. From experience its pretty rare to have even middle seats free these days.

I'm not sure about Southwests infant fares but in the past when Delta and American offered them, they were really 1/2 off what my ticket was. I never had to pay 1/2 off full fare ticket. But alas, they no longer offer it on the major airlines..and Southwest doesn't operate much out of Boston.

As for safety and lap children. The FAA does not require a seat. The only reason they don't is because of the argument if they do require seats for infants, more families will choose to drive instead...Driving is much more dangerous than flying statistically. Its not because they think you will be able to hold on to your child during an accident.

The "logic" used in the current policy is that requiring a seat to reduce the injuries/fatalities on aircraft would raise the statistics of driving related injuries/fatalities and not worth the amount of injuries/fatalities it would reduce (because air related accidents are more rare).

I think its just scary how they play the statistics, with children for goodness sake.

 

[NotUrsula]

Yes, also not all booster seats are approved. SW only approves one.

SWA doesn't approve or disallow any seat, they are following FAA regulations on allowed seats.

Technically, *NO* booster seat is approved for aircraft use, but that rests on the FAA's definition of a booster seat. Regardless of what the mfr. calls the seat, the FAA only considers it a "booster seat" if it lacks an integral upper-body harness. If the harness is removable and it is approved for aircraft use only with the harness in place, then the stickers will note that.

The wording of the sticker is mandated by US Federal law and does NOT mention the FAA by name. It reads (in red lettering): ""This restraint is certified for use in motor vehicles and aircraft."

 

[skjuls]

SWA doesn't approve or disallow any seat, they are following FAA regulations on allowed seats.

Technically, *NO* booster seat is approved for aircraft use, but that rests on the FAA's definition of a booster seat. Regardless of what the mfr. calls the seat, the FAA only considers it a "booster seat" if it lacks an integral upper-body harness. If the harness is removable and it is approved for aircraft use only with the harness in place, then the stickers will note that.

The wording of the sticker is mandated by US Federal law and does NOT mention the FAA by name. It reads (in red lettering): ""This restraint is certified for use in motor vehicles and aircraft."

Sorry I should have said FAA, since we are being so technical. I think most us of know the FAA has to approve this, hence the FAA approved labels. Sheesh!!!

But you have to mention that some flight attendants do not know all the regulations about car seats on planes even if it says it is approved. Although, I have yet to be questioned about the use of the CARES system. It is approved but fairly new.

From SW:
Approved Child Restraint Devices

Convertible-type car seats designed for forward or backward installation in a forward-facing aircraft seat:
Many of these carry the FMVSS.213 insignia and/or language indicating that they are "approved for use in motor vehicles and on aircraft."
Any CRD manufactured between January 1, 1961 and February 25, 1985, must have the following label: "This child restraint device conforms to all applicable federal motor vehicle safety standards."
Any CRD manufactured since February 26, 1985, must have both of the following labels in red lettering: "This child restraint device conforms to all applicable federal motor vehicle safety standards" and "This restraint is certified for use in motor vehicles and aircraft."
Harness-type devices approved by the FAA:
At this time, the FAA has approved only the AmSafe Aviation CARES, which is appropriate for children weighing between 22 and 44 pounds.
The AmSafe Aviation CARES must have a label indicating "FAA Approved in Accordance with 14CFR 21.305(d), Approved for Aircraft Use Only."
Century Breverra Approved Booster Seat:
The Century Breverra Booster Seat has a high back with shoulder straps and a five-point attach shield, which can be properly installed for aviation applications.
At this time, only the Century Breverra Booster Seat bearing a red FMVSS.213 safety label that reads "approved for use in motor vehicles and on aircraft" may be used on Southwest Airlines flights.
NOTE: No other booster seats may be used during any phase of flight, even if they bear approval labels

 

[tjmw2727]

This is true but Southwest told me that if there was an empty seat then you could use your carseat. They told me that when I was making arrangements for my son.

I don't know why Southwest wouldn't know if the flight would be full or not. Sometimes, it's pretty obvious.

Also, once they take your boarding pass, some people check their car seats. So there is no way for a flight attendant to know if you paid for a seat for your child or not. Even though my son is three, they always ask me once I board (I preboard) and have him settled in if I bought him his seat. Yes, I did but since my boarding pass is gone I don't have any proof.

I don't doubt what SWA told you but my personal real world experience is different. 99% of the time they won't let you board with a CRS if you don't have a ticket for the child.

You are right you won't have your BP with you once you have boarded but the FA's have a list of lap babies. They will walk the aircraft to determine where they are in case of emergency and to make sure there is only one lap baby per row. This is likely what they were doing when they asked you about your son - just checking. If they run out of seats then they will start identifying lap babies by name to make sure they are on a lap and not in a seat. If the babies aren't in a carseat then its just a matter of putting them on the parents lap to let the ticketed passenger have the seat.

Having been on more than one flight where too many parents "took" a seat for a lap baby resulting in ticketed passengers with no seats I can say its not a good situation. If those parents had also installed carseats it would have taken a long time. On one flight the FA told us that is why they don't let parents of lap babies board with carseats.

I am not trying to be arugmentative, just trying let those who may read this thread know that you can't count on using a carseat if you haven't purchased a seat for the child.

As far as approved seats - its pretty easy the sticker on the CRS will say this:
"This restraint is certified for use in motor vehicles and aircraft"

Here is a link to some helpful info from the FAA on traveling with children including carseat info and the new CARES harness.

http://www.faa.gov/passengers/fly_children/crs/

TJ

 

[NotUrsula]

But you have to mention that some flight attendants do not know all the regulations about car seats on planes even if it says it is approved.

True enough, which is why I always carry an up-to-date photocopy of 14 CFR121.311 taped in an envelope on the back of my carseat shell. The law is very clear that no US-licensed airline may deny the use of the carseat for a child who weighs under 40 lbs., if a) you have paid for the seat and b) the sticker is on the carseat and the carseat in in compliance. Having a copy of the law handy has settled the argument more than once, usually when there was a standby passenger who wanted DS' paid-for seat.

I have no idea why SWA has chosen to claim on their website that the 5-pt Breverra is approved while other similar seats are not, but I can tell you that it isn't true in practice. If a seat is approved for use with the integral harness, then the seat can be used, and as far as the FAA is concerned, it is NOT a "booster" under those conditions -- and neither is the Breverra. As an example: the labeling on the "Graco Platinum CarGo Booster" reads: "This child restraint system conforms to all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards and is certified for use in motor vehicles. It is certified for use in aircraft ONLY when used with the built-in harness. When used as a booster without the harness, this restraint is NOT certified for use in aircraft."

FTR: the federal definition of "booster seat" is found in 49 CFR 571.213, which reads, in part: "Backless child restraint system means a child restraint, other than a belt-positioning seat, that consists of a seating platform that does not extend up to provide a cushion for the child's back or head and has a structural element designed to restrain forward motion of the child's torso in a forward impact. Belt-positioning seat means a child restraint system that positions a child on a vehicle seat to improve the fit of a vehicle Type II belt system on the child and that lacks any component, such as a belt system or a structural element, designed to restrain forward movement of the child's torso in a forward impact. Booster seat means either a backless child restraint system or a belt-positioning seat." (Emphasis mine.)

It was not my intent to pick on anyone. The reason that I challenged the terminology is that it gave the misleading impression that US-based airlines are allowed to decide for themselves what seats they will and will not allow, when that is not true. Their staff may sometimes argue out of ignorance or even arrogance, but the fact is that the FAA is the only authority that gets to decide what child restrainst systems will or will not be allowed into a paid-for berth on a US-licensed commercial aircraft.

In some other countries the airlines *are* given the authority to set their own policies re: carseat use.

 

[skjuls]

True enough, which is why I always carry an up-to-date photocopy of 14 CFR121.311 taped in an envelope on the back of my carseat shell. The law is very clear that no US-licensed airline may deny the use of the carseat for a child who weighs under 40 lbs., if a) you have paid for the seat and b) the sticker is on the carseat and the carseat in in compliance. Having a copy of the law handy has settled the argument more than once, usually when there was a standby passenger who wanted DS' paid-for seat.

I have no idea why SWA has chosen to claim on their website that the 5-pt Breverra is approved while other similar seats are not, but I can tell you that it isn't true in practice. If a seat is approved for use with the integral harness, then the seat can be used, and as far as the FAA is concerned, it is NOT a "booster" under those conditions -- and neither is the Breverra. As an example: the labeling on the "Graco Platinum CarGo Booster" reads: "This child restraint system conforms to all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards and is certified for use in motor vehicles. It is certified for use in aircraft ONLY when used with the built-in harness. When used as a booster without the harness, this restraint is NOT certified for use in aircraft."

FTR: the federal definition of "booster seat" is found in 49 CFR 571.213, which reads, in part: "Backless child restraint system means a child restraint, other than a belt-positioning seat, that consists of a seating platform that does not extend up to provide a cushion for the child's back or head and has a structural element designed to restrain forward motion of the child's torso in a forward impact. Belt-positioning seat means a child restraint system that positions a child on a vehicle seat to improve the fit of a vehicle Type II belt system on the child and that lacks any component, such as a belt system or a structural element, designed to restrain forward movement of the child's torso in a forward impact. Booster seat means either a backless child restraint system or a belt-positioning seat." (Emphasis mine.)

It was not my intent to pick on anyone. The reason that I challenged the terminology is that it gave the misleading impression that US-based airlines are allowed to decide for themselves what seats they will and will not allow, when that is not true. Their staff may sometimes argue out of ignorance or even arrogance, but the fact is that the FAA is the only authority that gets to decide what child restrainst systems will or will not be allowed into a paid-for berth on a US-licensed commercial aircraft.

In some other countries the airlines *are* given the authority to set their own policies re: carseat use.

No problem! You have given some good information. I have yet to travel overseas with my little one so don't know what to expect yet. I want to go to Dublin next year so I will have to check up on that.

I love the CARES system, I have the sit n stroll carseat and I travel with my son alone and now I don't have to lug the car seat on the plane.

It makes sense that they wouldn't let you board with a CSR without a boarding pass but I have seen this done numerous times. But they do ask you beforehand if you are checking it, probably I have seen some parents lie??? That's why I get upset when they ask me. My child is not a lap child. He's too big and too old to be a lap child. I am antsy when I travel on a plane with my son since he has autism.

Also, I have seen two lap babies per row. It was originally 3 in this row, but one had to move to another row. The reason was because there were only 5 oxygen masks per the row in front of me.

Lessons learned from traveling with small children.

 

[bumbershoot]

The FAA does not require a seat. The only reason they don't is because of the argument if they do require seats for infants, more families will choose to drive instead...Driving is much more dangerous than flying statistically. Its not because they think you will be able to hold on to your child during an accident.

The "logic" used in the current policy is that requiring a seat to reduce the injuries/fatalities on aircraft would raise the statistics of driving related injuries/fatalities and not worth the amount of injuries/fatalities it would reduce (because air related accidents are more rare).

I think its just scary how they play the statistics, with children for goodness sake.

I don't find it scary, I find it realistic. Reality is sometimes scary.

The flight attendants I learned this from went further to say that they WANT those children on their flights, BECAUSE they are statistically safer (carseat or not) than being on a long car trip.

 

[DISNEYFOS]

They are statistically safer only because there are less accidents.

I'm sure they wouldn't "WANT" those children on their flight unrestrained in an actual emergency/accident.

In an accident, its just as dangerous to be sitting on a lap (with the only restraint being arms) in a car as it is on a plane.

Its playing the odds that there will not be an incident... I guess I just don't see why anyone would do that with an infant.

I really feel the FAA and the Airlines need to step up here and change some policies. Infant fares were a good policy..but now it seems they are phasing them out in favor of maximizing their profit.

sorry for being on the soapbox