Inappropriate topic 420?

[Evil Queen]

Unless your in the Mystery Van with Scoob and the gang breathing in their sleuth-solving smoke, it's going to be awful hard to catch a buzz off of second hand smoke.

That's why those two were always looking for food to handle the "munchie" attacks.....

 

[soupy11]

You're infinelty more informed. Well, maybe not.

To think that the the illicit supply and all the associated ills would go away with legalization is completely wrong.

But what do I know.

I never said they would go away, but I was quoting a statement that said violence would not reduce one bit. Do you honestly believe that a government regulated and taxed system of distribution would not reduce the gang banging and gun violence that is a staple of contraband running/prohibition type activity?

 

[EnnEss]

TCPluto... no one said legalize coke, meth etc.

We're talking about marijuana. Please differentiate for me alochol from marijuana? Alcohol is extremely dangerous, the arguement for legalizing marijuana has a lot to do with being able to tax it to help pay for some of the negative effects, as well as control access.

As a minor it is easier to get marijuana than it is smokes or alcohol. This is a fact. Marijuana generates no tax dollars. All the billions that have been spent fighting it have been uselesss, completely and utterly. Legalizing it and educating people is the key. It is not a highly addictive or lethal drug, as coke or meth is, and most kids and young people recognize the difference.

I live in Vancouver, it is possible to smoke pot fairly freely yet we still feel the negative effects of the many grow ops that supply the users. If it were legalized these would be negated as the weed would come from other sources and grow ops would no longer be financially viable.

Alcohol prohibition did not work, neither has the prohibition of marijuana. I do not smoke it, but I understand the problems associated with it in various forms.

To date there has been no valid arguement put forth that is pro legal alcohol and anti legal marijuana that has a solid, fluid form of logic. We already know we can not outlaw alcohol without great innefectiveness and difficulty and this has also been proven with Marijuana. Police officers must enforce the laws they are given, they do not get to chose, citizens should behave the same way, there is no disrespect intended to those who enforce laws or believe in them. It does not mean the law is correct, sensical, the most fiscally and morally responsible or right. Citizens though, should still obey them until they are able to prompt change.

Having said all that, I do strongly agree with the route my city takes on smoking, it is very similar to the route every city goes with alcohol. You can not smoke in public places here. You can not smoke marijuana, you can not smoke cigarettes, you can not smoke a pipe or a cigar. I dislike all smoke and any form of smoke is hazardous to those who inhale it, this has proved to be an enforcable law as our city, and others, have shown.

 

[TCPluto]

Do you honestly believe that a government regulated and taxed system of distribution would not reduce the gang banging and gun violence that is a staple of contraband running/prohibition type activity?

Yes....

 

[TCPluto]

As a minor it is easier to get marijuana than it is smokes or alcohol. This is a fact.

This is not fact and is far from reality.

 

[soupy11]

Not to be rude or anything TLCPluto because I do not know you at all and this is just a silly internet board, but your stance just does not make any sense.

In countries such as Denmark where legalization is the norm, you don't see any of the violence that we have here in North and South America. This just isn't true. It just doesn't compute. The violence IS directly due to the fact that it is illegal.

*I am speaking of violence from trafficking and manufacturing of illegal drugs....not the crimes from the abusers and users themselves such as robbery, break and enter etc to facilitate the habit..

 

[TCPluto]

*I am speaking of violence from trafficking and manufacturing of illegal drugs....not the crimes from the abusers and users themselves such as robbery, break and enter etc to facilitate the habit..

None of this will go away. If you think that their won't be a black market for the newly legalized drugs, your sadly mistaken. Along with that prolific market will come the same thing we see today.

The only difference is, we will have an astronomically larger number of people addicted to these drugs, woh started out with using the legal stuff, before going into the world of black market.

 

[EnnEss]

where is the black market for alcohol? Where is it for cigarettes? It doesnt exist because governments make sure the products are sold cheaper than bootleggers do, making the bootlegging unviable.

Hard drugs are another problem all together, one to be addressed separately and differently, although it is obvious the current 'war on drugs' is ineffectual and not working.

TCP, it is easier to attain illicit drugs then it is alcohol or cigarettes for minors. People sell it to them at school, on the street. You may are more than likely out of touch with the realities of adolescence today, but it is far harder to attain controlled substances than illegal substances. It is even easier for me as an adult. I can call someone, it will be delivered to my house within five minutes. The chances of the police stopping or catching me are miniscule. If I want alcohol I have to go to a store, same with cigarettes. It is the same for kids and teens. Drugs are available in nearly every school in North America at any time. To think otherwise is unfathomable. This is after nearly 3 decades of a war against drugs.

 

[ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!]

This is not fact and is far from reality.

I don't know how old you are or where you live. But it's pretty accurate in my area. A lot of kids I knew in middle school were already smoking pot. I've never been to a party around that time where they were serving alcohol or any of the kids were smoking cigarettes. But once you went out to the back you'd see a small group sitting in a circle smoking.

I've only read a few of your replies TCPluto and I have to say a lot of your statements come out to be as 'facts.' But I have yet to see you back them up with any concrete information.

I agree with legalization and taxation. I think it would work out, and to say it wouldn't because of your personal opinion is one thing, but don't make it out to be a 'fact.'

The only difference is, we will have an astronomically larger number of people addicted to these drugs, woh started out with using the legal stuff, before going into the world of black market.

Are you telling me that marijuana is a gateway drug to harder and stronger things? The only gateway that I've observed from pot are ding dongs, twinkies and a big gulp.

 

[TCPluto]

I don't know how old you are or where you live. But it's pretty accurate in my area. A lot of kids I knew in middle school were already smoking pot. I've never been to a party around that time where they were serving alcohol or any of the kids were smoking cigarettes. But once you went out to the back you'd see a small group sitting in a circle smoking.

I've only read a few of your replies TCPluto and I have to say a lot of your statements come out to be as 'facts.' But I have yet to see you back them up with any concrete information.

I agree with legalization and taxation. I think it would work out, and to say it wouldn't because of your personal opinion is one thing, but don't make it out to be a 'fact.'



Are you telling me that marijuana is a gateway drug to harder and stronger things? The only gateway that I've observed from pot are ding dongs, twinkies and a big gulp.

"As a minor it is easier to get marijuana than it is smokes or alcohol. This is a fact."

This is the post I was responding to.

Largely, my opinion is based merely on 25 years of life experience very close to the fight, as it were. Having dragged hundreds of kids out of crack houses tends to have an effect on your perception of the substances that put them in that position.

And yes, they largely report (over 90%), their gateway into drug use was marijuana. I'll apologize now for how upset this will make you, but after literally hundreds of interviews, it is so (in my not so limited expereince).

Legalization and taxation will shift a portion of the burden from law enforcement to substance abuse and social services and there will still be healthy black market for the same drugs. Whatever the govenrment would charge, the black market will deliver higher potency for less money. They'll go no where.

In fact it will stregthen the black market. You get hooked on the legal drug (whatever drug you want to legalize), than find out you can get more potent drugs for less money on the balck market. The government will have cultivated and delivered an entirely new consumer to the balck market, increasing their inlfuence and problems.

Lose-lose situation.

 

[soupy11]

None of this will go away. If you think that their won't be a black market for the newly legalized drugs, your sadly mistaken. Along with that prolific market will come the same thing we see today.

The only difference is, we will have an astronomically larger number of people addicted to these drugs, woh started out with using the legal stuff, before going into the world of black market.



Is their a sizeable black market for alcohol or tobacco? Not really. And not one that is headline news garnering violent.
And the old adage that pot is a gateway drug is misleading. How many drug addicts tried booze first, then pot, then heroin? They don't publish those numbers as it doesn't jive with the "war on drugs." But stating that marijuana is a gateway drug does.

Being a cop probably hardens your view on this subject as you see the foot soldiers and other dregs that are a problem with illegal drugs on a constant basis. If their was a legalization, at least tax dollars will come in to help with the addicts. You don't see any higher numbers of addiction in legalized countries than you do in the US. So I just don't see how it would be a step back?

 

[TCPluto]

it is easier to attain illicit drugs then it is alcohol or cigarettes for minors. People sell it to them at school, on the street.

You may are more than likely out of touch with the realities of adolescence today, but it is far harder to attain controlled substances than illegal substances.

They get the alcohol and cigaretes from older brothers, sisters, parents, with or without their knowledge. Or, walk into stores and buy it themselves, right or wrong, it's done. It's much easier to access alcohol and cigarettes, your arguement doesn't work.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying with the 2nd paragraph, some issues with spelling and concepts. "you may are more"? What's the difference between controlled substances and illegal substances?

 

[TCPluto]

Is their a sizeable black market for alcohol or tobacco?

Nope. The government has standards that have to be met, tolerances and potency (alcohol percentage) regulations. The same would apply for your newly legalized drug of choice, the government would have regulated potency, health, and processing standards.

The black market would not have to pay attention to either health standards nor regulatory guidlines and would therefore offer a much higher potency product for a cheaper price.

Marijuana in the 60's had a thc (active ingredient, creates the high) level 0f 2-3%. Todays marijuana has an average thc level of almost 10% .

If you go really crazy, you get "BC bud" (yep, from our friends in Vancouver), thc levels in the 30-35% range.


Yes, the black market will thrive with the new consumer base that is created when those that become addicted to the legal stuff decide they want more high for the buck. All of the ills we sought to end will be here, only much worse. Same with the mental health and medical costs, all to burden society.

 

[ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!]

They get the alcohol and cigaretes from older brothers, sisters, parents, with or without their knowledge. Or, walk into stores and buy it themselves, right or wrong, it's done. It's much easier to access alcohol and cigarettes, your arguement doesn't work.

Once again, this is all speculation. Your argument doesn't work either. When I was 16, my friends and I use to goto the gas station and try to buy cigarettes and a beer and usually were turned down because they'd card you 99.9% of the time. Especially with the latest 'We Ask for ID' campaigns that happen in Florida every so often.

To get pot or any drug, is just a simple phone call to a dealer. Said dealer doesn't care about your age, health, who you are, whatever. As long as he gets money and the person gets the drug, the transaction is complete.

Yes, beer and cigarettes is more ACCESSIBLE to anyone because they sell them at any store around the corner. Yes, it's also easily accessible to youngins because parents might have a liqour cabinet or a pack of smokes on their dresser. But heck, thats responsibility of the parent.

If a kid wants to get drunk he'd have to figure out how he can get someone to buy him alcohol or find someone that will sell it to him. Quite a mission. Drugs on the other hand is a simple phone call.

 

[TCPluto]

Once again, this is all speculation.

If a kid wants to get drunk he'd have to figure out how he can get someone to buy him alcohol or find someone that will sell it to him. Quite a mission.

Drugs on the other hand is a simple phone call.

No, not speculation. 25 years of professional experience, sorry it doesn't work for your arguement.

Not much of a stretch to find an older brother or sister, or friends, or friends friend to buy the liquor. Sometiems, sadly, even a parent. Not much of a mission .

You admit you bought alcohol and cigarettes in stores with some success while underage, happens all the time.

Since drug dealers are not in the book, you have to do a little more than pick up the phone and call. You have to have put yourself in the position of shopping to know where to go. It's not that easy, despite what you would like anyone to believe. Sorry.

 

[EnnEss]

Drug dealers are in every school in the country. That is where you get it. Alcohol and cigarettes are not. You may think you are knowledgable on the subject, but you have front line knowledge, great, but it does not mean that is all that is available. It also causes bias. I wont discuss it any further.

Everyone has a different view, there's not right or wrong but its very saddening to see that some people believe the current approach is working. Drugs are part of a bigger problem with the social structure of America. At this point I'd be willing to try many various different approaches to the current war on drugs in hopes of finding something that works slightly better.

 

[TCPluto]

Drug dealers are in every school in the country. That is where you get it.

Alcohol and cigarettes are not.

You may think you are knowledgable on the subject, but you have front line knowledge, great, but it does not mean that is all that is available. It also causes bias. I wont discuss it any further.

Drug dealers in every school, that's where you go to get drugs? Not so much. It happens, and depending on where you're at, maybe not at all. One drug dealer in a school is a problem.

Alcohol and cigarettes not in schools??? Well... yes they are, with much greater frequency than illicit drugs (controlled substances). Wiith alcohol, no need to get it at school, wait until you get home, it's right there.

I am truly biased, yes I am, against all of the current controlled substances, including marijuana, ecstacy, coke,crack, heroin, ketamine, meth., etc.

The personal devastation to the abusers and the subsequent societal costs are to great to think about making these products more readily available. It would be the worse thing we could do.

 

[ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!]

No, not speculation. 25 years of professional experience, sorry it doesn't work for your arguement.

Not much of a stretch to find an older brother or sister, or friends, or friends friend to buy the liquor. Sometiems, sadly, even a parent. Not much of a mission .

You admit you bought alcohol and cigarettes in stores with some success while underage, happens all the time.

Since drug dealers are not in the book, you have to do a little more than pick up the phone and call. You have to have put yourself in the position of shopping to know where to go. It's not that easy, despite what you would like anyone to believe. Sorry.

Well, it seems like your 25 years of experience is past its prime. Maybe you should stop being such a pompous *** and open your mind up to other peoples experiences. You don't know everything and your '25 years of experience' certainly shows it...Sorry.

 

[TCPluto]

Well, it seems like your 25 years of experience is past its prime. Maybe you should stop being such a pompous *** and open your mind up to other peoples experiences. You don't know everything and your '25 years of experience' certainly shows it...Sorry.

Wow, it seems you're upset.

Because I have thousands of representative examples of why illict drug use should stay illicit, contrary to your opinion, you respond this way?

Not a single addict I have ever interviewed wanted to be addicted to the drug, nor did they want it more readily accessible. They wanted help, and to have the substance out of their lives. I have opened my mind to their experiences.

Chill dude. Someone needs a fatty.

 

[ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!]

Wow, it seems you're upset.

Because I have thousands of representative examples of why illict drug use should stay illicit, contrary to your opinion, you respond this way?

Not a single addict I have ever interviewed wanted to be addicted to the drug, nor did they want it more readily accessible. They wanted help, and to have the substance out of their lives. I have opened my mind to their experiences.

Chill dude. Someone needs a fatty.

I can assure you that I'm not upset. I'm making a statement from reading all your other responses and I'm sure others would agree. First off, you have yet to put any concrete evidence to back up anything you said it's all '25 years of experience'. Second, you keep jumping topics. The discussion (that I was interested in) was the amount of access children have to drugs (marijuana, really) compared to alcohol and cigarettes. Not of what your specific patients had to deal with. The patients you have interviewed are most likely people who have either put themselves or someone has forced them to go into rehabilitation. I may be wrong but the percentage of people who are in rehab (and who share their stories and experiences with you) is miniscule compared to the people who still live their life they want to and do whatever substance they feel like, whether its controlled or not. I also highly doubt, the percentage of the people you have interviewed are kids from middle and high school. I would assume the majority of these people are older and are those who have been addicted to hard drugs for years and have finally decided to put an end to it. This has NOTHING to do with what is ACCESSIBLE to middle and high school children. Unless they're the drug dealer, they probably have no idea of what was accessible to kids.

Also, please enlighten me, of your 25 years of experience and the thousands of representatives that you have interviewed: how many of these succumbed to your help were strictly there for marijuana use only? I'm pretty sure it isn't anyone near the number of people (if any!) who need help for harder drugs and alcohol abuse. And this isn't to start a discussion of how marijuana is a gateway drug, because as far as opinions go, I think that's been a cop out answer for people who have been busted.

I'm not going to continue with this discussion as obviously it won't go anywhere. I just wanted to put in my 2 cents, and there you have it.

cheerios.