I'm getting a puppy! -update page 6

[VSL]

Out of curiousity, why would it make you uncomfortable?

Well, I never said that it would make me personally uncomfortable - I want to have female dogs myself and it will be a lot easier for me to get them spayed (especially if I want to take them running and let them off the leash! )
However, I'm sure there *are* people out there who just do not like the idea of a human just deciding that 'this dog will never have puppies' type thing.

Either way - thanks everyone for explaining . I think that what got me most was the whole 'how dare you tell me what to do with my puppy!' defensiveness that I get from reading such contracts. I definitely understand about the breeds getting 'badly mixed' and stuff.
Hey, I'm British, what can I say? It's that stubborn streak showing!

Either way, I can assure you that I have no intentions of breeding (and I think someone breeding just to make money is terrible - you need to have some kind of passion for dogs and to care about them to do it, IMO!) - I just really didn't understand why and without that knowledge of why, reading the contract just seems to make the breeder a little overbearing.

 

[doxdogy]

You spay a female dog for health reasons. Spaying cuts down on the chances of breast cancer.

But what about people who are just uncomfortable with having their dog spayed/neutered?

 

[Nana Annie]

I believe I also found the site ITA - it looks like a borderline puppy mill.

And did you see the eyes on all the puppy pics? No wonder the OP was asking the poster with the beautiful Maltese (that sounds like it came from a very reputable breeder) about the clean face. All the puppies had red, crusty eyes with huge tear stains already.

OP - I sincerely hope we are wrong and this puppy turns out to be the puppy of your dreams. But from looking at the puppy pics, I would definitely run the puppy to the vet as soon as you pick it up from the airport. It could quite possibly just be the quality of the photos on the site, but from what it looks like, these puppies might already have health issues. Actually, it is a good idea to have any new dog vet checked right away

 

[MommyPoppins]

So, hang on, these people can tell you that once you have the puppy you're not allowed to let it breed?

I mean, what would happen if it 'accidentally' got pregnant..?
And what if you wanted to cross breed your puppy?

I don't understand.. it's not as if you're selling it then under their 'companies' name.

I just don't agree with that stipulation. It should be up to the owner what happens to the dog, not the previous owner.

Not bashing the OP (as the OP is the buyer, not the seller), but why should it be up to the seller what you do once you've got your pup?

I would NOT be happy with that at all.

Well, once it's ours we could do whatever we wanted. But we can't register her unless we get her spayed. If you don't register, you don't have much to sell. Anyway, we don't want to breed her. I want to get her spayed anyway. So it worked out well for us. Most of the websites I visited had the same policys, but most also said that you could talk about it. I think that if you had pure intentions, and wanted to continue to better the breed and not just make money than some people would allow it. but like others said, you can get a better deal. I did.

 

[Am_I_There_Yet]

Well, I never said that it would make me personally uncomfortable

I stand corrected. I actually was going to edit my post, because I realized that I misread what you posted.

You beat me to it!

 

[MommyPoppins]

My thoughts exactly!! Reputable breeders breed because they have an excellent example of the species and want to protect/preserve the breed standard. Not because they think the world should be filled with that breed so everyone can have one

I'm also having red flags raised about a breeder that will transport their puppies via airplane to someone they have not met or extensively checked. and I've never seen "extra parvo protection" advertised either. That raises huge red flags with me.

I only encountered one breeder of all that I looked at that didn't ship. If they are going to sell puppies they have to put them on an airplane. If there were so many breeders around that you didn't have to ship than wouldn't THAT be a red flag?

Also from what I understand puppies should be vacinated against the parvo virus every 3-4 weeks until age 16weeks starting at 6 weeks. So, if they have "extra protection" that means the breeder went out of her way to keep getting them into the vet for the extra shots. They are only required to do the first set. My pup is 11 weeks, so the extra protection would be a good thing.

 

[VSL]

I stand corrected. I actually was going to edit my post, because I realized that I misread what you posted.

You beat me to it!

It's an easy mistake to make (especially as I was so defensive about the whole thing in those two posts!)

 

[Nana Annie]

Well, once it's ours we could do whatever we wanted. But we can't register her unless we get her spayed. If you don't register, you don't have much to sell. Anyway, we don't want to breed her. I want to get her spayed anyway. So it worked out well for us. Most of the websites I visited had the same policys, but most also said that you could talk about it. I think that if you had pure intentions, and wanted to continue to better the breed and not just make money than some people would allow it. but like others said, you can get a better deal. I did.

First of all, kudos to you that you don't want to breed! You seem to have a great viewpoint on breeding.

But just in case you are unaware, these dogs are not registered. At least not with a reputable registry such as the AKC or CKC (Canadian Kennel Club, not the Continental Kennel Club - which is not a legitimate registry). APRI or the American Pet Registry is just another registry set up for puppy mill and petshop dogs.

You are giving these people huge sums of money for a dog that is not really registered.

In case it is not too late, I would contact the American Pomeranian Club which is the National Breed club of the Pomeranian, recognized by the AKC and other legitimate registries.

And at least ask your "breeder" if she is a member of the American Pomeranian Club and if she follows its code of ethics. If she is a member in good standing, then you should have no qualms about the puppy. If not, I would rethink my decision.

 

[GoldenGate]

Found the OP's breeder by googling the "extra-parvo" and pomeranian. Definitely looks like a "breeder" I wouldn't do business with. Multiple breeds and Numerous, numerous dogs of each breed - not just a few like the OP said. From the amount of dogs they are breeding - in my opinion - I would lump it right up there with a puppy mill. Or a very, very busy backyard breeder.

Right now, according to the website, they have 2 cocker litters, 2 eskie litters and 2 pom litters on the ground. And only 1 cocker puppy was AKC registered. Everything else was puppymill registered. They also breed Cavaliers and something else. ALL the reputable breeders I know wouldn't think of having more than 1 litter, perhaps 2 in one year.

The website looks great - stating that they have all sorts of "champions." But they are all APRI (or American Pet Registry) champions - a registry for petshop dogs. But not a single AKC champion to be found.

Guess there were reasons red flags were popping up all over the place!

 

[AZKathy]

I just wanted to say congrats for getting such a wonderful breed. I adore poms and I look forward to seeing pictures of your baby soon!

We potty trained our pom for outside potty. One of my friends tried the kitty litter box thing for her chihuahua pup and all the pup did was EAT the litter; it did not work for her. I think the chihuahuas are trained to go on the potty pads.

Sorry that so many people said such negative things; it even got my hackles up with being a pom owner. I have three kids and I have no problems with my pom and the kids. I don't like reading negative comments about my baby pom! Enjoy your new family member and since you are at home all the time, you should have an easy time potty training your baby. Oh, what are you going to name her?

 

[castoff]

I only encountered one breeder of all that I looked at that didn't ship. If they are going to sell puppies they have to put them on an airplane. If there were so many breeders around that you didn't have to ship than wouldn't THAT be a red flag?

Also from what I understand puppies should be vacinated against the parvo virus every 3-4 weeks until age 16weeks starting at 6 weeks. So, if they have "extra protection" that means the breeder went out of her way to keep getting them into the vet for the extra shots. They are only required to do the first set. My pup is 11 weeks, so the extra protection would be a good thing.

There are alot of breeders that do ship puppies. It's just a fact. I don't think it makes them a bad breeder. My DH happen to fly down and pick up Dante. I also shipped his carrier 3 weeks earlier and each day she put him in a little bit longer so by the time he flew he was very use to it. Before any puppy flies you must provide a health certificate by a vet. It also states on there all the shots given. I don't recall any extra parvo. He was given 2 shots of it before we got him.
As far as the agreements go with the breeder, I had to sign a contract to get Dante fixed. I was more then happy to do so. My breeder paid for medical testing on her dogs got DNA and I have a pedigree with championship bloodlines to prove it. I checked her out with the AKC. She is protecting herself and controlling the bloodline and I understand completing.
I am not a breeder, don't want to be. I will however do want this dog was bred to do and he will be loved and cared for sooo much. I hope he will win some titles, but if he doesn't that's o.k to. I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do. You can check out your breeder as I am sure my breeder checked us out.

 

[castoff]

I just wanted to say congrats for getting such a wonderful breed. I adore poms and I look forward to seeing pictures of your baby soon!

We potty trained our pom for outside potty. One of my friends tried the kitty litter box thing for her chihuahua pup and all the pup did was EAT the litter; it did not work for her. I think the chihuahuas are trained to go on the potty pads.

Sorry that so many people said such negative things; it even got my hackles up with being a pom owner. I have three kids and I have no problems with my pom and the kids. I don't like reading negative comments about my baby pom! Enjoy your new family member and since you are at home all the time, you should have an easy time potty training your baby. Oh, what are you going to name her?

At petco we got a dog pan. We use non-print newspaper. We put a training pad under the newspaper for extra protection. They also sell doggie litter. It is like paper pellets for dogs. We have a package but never used . I find the non-print newspaper works well for us, so why change it.

 

[Crankyshank]

I only encountered one breeder of all that I looked at that didn't ship. If they are going to sell puppies they have to put them on an airplane. If there were so many breeders around that you didn't have to ship than wouldn't THAT be a red flag?

Also from what I understand puppies should be vacinated against the parvo virus every 3-4 weeks until age 16weeks starting at 6 weeks. So, if they have "extra protection" that means the breeder went out of her way to keep getting them into the vet for the extra shots. They are only required to do the first set. My pup is 11 weeks, so the extra protection would be a good thing.

First of all, there is this thing called a car. If you went through research and was unable to find a recommended breeder in your area it doesn't mean your only option is to have the dog flown to you. My dog pictured below was from a breeder that was recommended highly to me in DE - I drove to inspect the breeder and drove again to pick the dog up. I could've gotten a beagle locally but I decided to wait for this breeder to have a litter because she came highly recommended. Getting a puppy isn't an immediate gratification thing. Most people wait for a litter to be born because of waiting lists.

also, if you re-read what you quoted me you will see I said "I'm also having red flags raised about a breeder that will transport their puppies via airplane to someone they have not met or extensively checked"

Transporting animals via airplane is extremely dangerous and not recommended. Particularly for small dogs (toy dogs are allowed as carryon with many airlines for that very reason). I didn't say shipping the dog was bad since obviously there are circumstances where a dog must be shipped. I said essentially that someone calling a breeder and saying "I want a puppy" and the breeder going "ok I'll fly it out next week" without doing extensive checking on who is purchasing the dog is not a good breeder.

As far as I am aware through personal experience either every or most states require a vet certificate of health upon taking possession of a dog - not just a requirement to fly.

The website for that breeder is extremely concerning. No breeder of even mediocre standing breeds that many dogs - especially at the same time. As far as the shots go the breeder is required to keep the puppies up to date on all shots. So if the dog isn't sold by the time the next series of shots are due, the breeder needs to get the next set. It's not extra protection- it's required by law. And based on the amt of dogs the breeder has the "extra parvo" is because of the extreme likelihood those puppies could get parvo.

 

[Nana Annie]

Also from what I understand puppies should be vacinated against the parvo virus every 3-4 weeks until age 16weeks starting at 6 weeks. So, if they have "extra protection" that means the breeder went out of her way to keep getting them into the vet for the extra shots. They are only required to do the first set. My pup is 11 weeks, so the extra protection would be a good thing.

Actually, the new vaccine protocol established Dr. J, Dodd and as accepted by all 27 vet schools in the US emphatically states that doing the vaccines more than 1 every 3-4 weeks actually suppresses immunity rather than boost it. Doing "extra" shots puts not only puts your puppy in greater risk of actually contracting Parvo, but also puts them at a much greater risk for potential allergic reactions and immune-mediated haemolytic anemia.

As much as I hate to say this - after reviewing your "breeders" website, you are probably no better off with that puppy than you were with the original one you saw at the petshop. You basically went from the pet shop to the puppy mill. If you are adverse to waiting and finding a reputable breeder, you are probably better off with the puppy from the petshop that doesn't have to be shipped in winter.

And yes, I know many. many dogs are shipped. But as Crankyshank stated, it is the whole package of goods this "breeder" offers that puts up red flags.

But good luck on your puppy. Let us know that she made it safely off the plane.

 

[Nana Annie]

I also want to add that in no way am I trying to flame the OP in her choice of puppies. Far from it. A few of us are "dog experienced" and just want the best for the OP.

I have been involved in the dog world for over 30 years, agility, performance and conformation - showing many dogs to titles.

What galls me most is seeing good, but new to dogs, people such as the OP, get scammed by so-called breeders that put on a good show, but really are only after the profits they can make out of as many litters they can raise in a year. That they take big bucks for their non-registered, poorly bred puppies when a person could be spending the same amount for a puppy that has years of purposeful breeding behind it, with all the health clearances that any actual breeder wouldn't breed without.

Now, I will be the first to admit that the "reputable breeder" route is often hard to navigate for the first time dog owner. There are many breeders out there that make it a nightmare for new people to even inquire about puppies. (this was actually a discussion on the showdog list awhile back - that breeders whine when people buy dogs from petshops, but then some breeders make it so difficult to get a good puppy) Some have ridiculous stipulations in their contracts. I heard of a few breeders that actually require copies of their puppy owner's wills to make sure that the puppy is willed back to the breeder. But with some patience and diligence, one can find a breeder that is compatible with you. You may have to wait a little while, but the wait is so worth it!

So, to the OP - don't take offense at some of the advice given here. We just want to see you with a good puppy. We dog people can get pretty passionate about the backyard breeder/puppy mill/pet shop puppy thing.

Good luck with your new puppy, whereever you get it from.

 

[Crankyshank]

Yes Nana Annie exactly. These breeders charge outrageous prices for poor quality dogs with health issues and more often than not it causes a family heartbreak and unnecessary expense because they've gotten attached to the dog.

 

[Nana Annie]

One last thing to consider before you forward your money to this breeder.

The most basic of health clearances that absolutely no reputable breeder would breed without is a hip x-ray to screen for hip dysplasia.

The OP's breeder has nothing on her website indicating that she screens for hip dysplasia.

The most accepted hip dysplasia screening is to have an OFA clearance. This is when your vet takes an x-ray of the hips and sends it to the OFA (or orthopedic foundation for animals) for them to review and rate the hips. Hips can be rated as Excellent, Good, Fair, Borderline, Mild, Moderate, Severe, Indeterminate, or the worst - Avascular Necrosis.

Dogs are only considered good for breeding if their hips are Fair or above. Most breeders will only breed a dog with Excellent or Good hips.

The nice thing about the OFA database is that is searchable. I searched the database for every one of your breeder's Pomeranian names and not one of them has an OFA clearance for hips. I also searched on the kennel name and no dogs with her kennel name have any OFA clearances. Now, she may have registered names that are not listed on the website under which the dogs are tested and listed. So, before you give her your hard-earned money, ask for the OFA number and clearance of the puppy's parents. If she gives you a song and dance that she doesn't need hip clearances - run.

Also ask if the eyes have Cerf clearances.

 

[Am_I_There_Yet]

One last thing to consider before you forward your money to this breeder.

The most basic of health clearances that absolutely no reputable breeder would breed without is a hip x-ray to screen for hip dysplasia.

The OP's breeder has nothing on her website indicating that she screens for hip dysplasia.

I know all about this, because I have a Golden Retriever. I did not know though, that screening was supposed to be done on all breeds.

I always thought it was done on large breed dogs. Learn something new every day!

 

[hiwaygal]

We dog people can get pretty passionate about the backyard breeder/puppy mill/pet shop puppy thing.

And...WOW! Nana Annie! I'm impressed! I would love to know more about the dogs/breeds you are involved in...

 

[Nana Annie]

I know all about this, because I have a Golden Retriever. I did not know though, that screening was supposed to be done on all breeds.

I always thought it was done on large breed dogs. Learn something new every day!

There are 420 entries for Pomeranians and 38,068 entries for the AKC toy group in the OFA database with hips, elbow, patellas, cerfed, thyroid and/or cardiac results. So, it is definitely done in toys.

I will wholeheartedly agree that it is much more important, and much more common to test for hips in the larger breed dogs, but testing is becoming more common in the smaller breed dogs too. Most conscientous breeders will screen for whatever is common for their breed. See below for the most common problems in Pomeranians.

So, actually, the point I was trying to make was that the OP's choice of breeder does not list ANY kind of health testing on any of the dogs. She may have done it and does not list it, but the OP should at least ask about any kind of testing the breeder has done.

Some things to ask the breeder if they run in her bloodlines and if she has tested for. Not asking these questions can potentially create a large hole in your pocket book.

From MBF: (From the Pomeranian experts)

Pomeranian Health Problems

This web site is compiled and maintained by a group of dedicated Pomeranian breeders. This is a list of the most common problems found in the breed. Remember, even the most conscientious breeder may have problems, however, since they are screening for genetic problems, you have a better chance of having a healthy puppy.


Luxating Patellas

Luxating patellas (knees that slip out of place) are the most common problem in the Pomeranian breed. The knees are graded according to the OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals). Normal knees are, of course the most desirable, but Grades One and Two are more common and not unusual in toy breeds. Grades Three and Four may require surgery, sometimes early on in the dog’s life. Be sure to check the knees of any prospective puppy. One with higher grades at a young age will probably be a candidate for surgery.

OFA has forms to fill out on the grade of the patellas and both parents should have their results on file. Remember, only a “normal” result may appear in the database. Request to see a copy of the results from your breeder, when you are visiting your new puppy.


Hypothyroidism

Hypothyroidism (low thyroid) is very common in the Pomeranian breed. Ask to see the results of the thyroid tests of the parents of the puppy you are considering. OFA has a registry for dogs who submit tests for thyroid.


Coat Loss Problems

There is a coat loss problem in Pomeranians called SHLS (Severe Hair Loss Syndrome). It is also known as Black Skin Disease. It occurs mainly in males. They may have profuse puppy coats with no guard hairs, which does not shed. When the puppy coat sheds, the coat does not grow back. Another version of the same condition happens at a later age, with a normal appearing coat that slowly starts to thin, starting at the back of the thighs and buttocks and moving up the back. Ask to see the parents of the dog you are buying.


Collapsing Tracheas

Collapsing trachea is a problem found in many Poms. If your pom makes a honking noise or sounds like he is coughing up a hairball, the problem may be his trachea. It can be diagnosed with a Xray and usually medication is prescribed to reduce coughing. This can be a life-threatening problem, so do not ignore it.


Heart

Heart problems can range from very slight to life threatening. Some are impossible to diagnose until a sudden death occurs. Ask your breeder if heart problems run in the lines he is working with.


Hypoglycemia

Hypoglycemia can occur in young Pomeranians. It is more common in the very small or very active puppies. Be sure that your breeder gives you complete instructions on how to determine if your puppy is starting to develop hypoglycemia. It is a problem that the puppy outgrows as they mature. Adult hypoglycemia is a serious metabolic disorder. Dogs who have this should not be bred.


Seizures

Some Pomeranians have idiopathic epilepsy. Idiopathic means that we don’t know what causes it. Liver problems, kidney problems, head trauma and other reasons may cause seizures. Idiopathic epilepsy typically occurs between 3-7 years of age and is thought to be inherited. Seizures can be very frightening to someone who has never seen one before and can manifest in many different ways. Look at the epilepsy website to gain a better understanding of the problem.


Eyes

A Veterinarian who is trained to do CERF testing can check eyes for genetic problems. CERF (Canine Eye Registry Foundation) has a form and a database to check the parents of the puppy you are considering. To date. there have not been many eye problems found, but that may be because not many dogs have been tested. Ask to see the CERF results of the parents of the puppy.


Hip Dysplasia

Hip dysplasia does not tend to be a problem in Pomeranians because of their lightweight. Some breeders are X-raying hips for CHD and should be commended for their thorough testing.