I thought things were supposed to be improving?

[snowywhite89]

Ah-ha! I think that you are on to something! Where federal funding is spent makes all of the difference. Voting with our feet sounds like a good idea, but I understand why construction people who have been burned in the past are fearful of moving to New Orleans. Those who moved to Las Vegas to work on casino projects that went bankrupt or in the real estate business for all of the new residents found themselves stuck there after the economy tanked. While I was working on a school bond initiative for Orange County, California, over and over and over voters spoke of the construction workers who came down to build California Adventure Park at Disneyland and who were left in the Anaheim area with no jobs afterward. No matter how portable their skills, how many times can people move on at their own expense?

As bigoted as some may say that it sounds, I have been advised to move to where there aren't as many immigrant pressures -- yet. I understand that those advising me are thinking of what is best for me personally, even though it is scary to move on to the unknown since I have been homeless in the past. My doctor is here too, and she has reminded me that I have been very sick so my recent medical history makes me cautious. I am thinking of moving to the southeast though since I would be young by comparison given the high percentage of retirees in the south while the competition is getting younger every day here.

Those posting here from the more stable areas of the country would not welcome the invasion of people like me to compete with them for their jobs and drive wages down and housing costs up. I don't blame them. So what do we do?

The mistake the construction workers made with LV was not going there for a job but buying a home there when most of the homes being built were for speculators and other construction workers. Renting was the way to go.

Why can't the construction worker go with some friends and rent an apartment while leaving the family back home?

 

[Colleen27]

The mistake the construction workers made with LV was not going there for a job but buying a home there when most of the homes being built were for speculators and other construction workers. Renting was the way to go.

Why can't the construction worker go with some friends and rent an apartment while leaving the family back home?

It really isn't cost effective in most cases - yes, the worker is employed whereas back home he'd possibly be unemployed long term, but it also means taking on the costs of two households for the sake of a relatively low-wage job. We've known guys who have tried it, and it just doesn't work out as well as people seem to think it should.

Three of DH's friends went down to AZ to take advantage of the building boom when the market here in Michigan started going downhill (well ahead of the national bust), but their expenses were such that it just didn't pan out - it was a huge sacrifice in terms of time away from the family for less net income than a part time job flipping burgers would have brought. Rent in booming housing markets is high even with roommates, they needed a car and insurance down there where they'd all been one-car families up here, none of them were cooking at the end of the day so they were eating a lot of packaged/convenience foods, at home their wives were spending money to have things done that their husbands normally would have handled, and in the end it was adding little or nothing to the household bottom line.

 

[tvguy]

Cheap is relative. Oil is more expensive than we're used to seeing it, but I get what SanFran was saying - outsourcing in manufacturing is based on oil prices low enough that shipping things from where ever in the world offers the cheapest labor is cost-effective. And I tend to agree with him that we'll see a time when that's no longer the case, though I think it is still a couple decades off.

If the huge gap in environmental costs, liability and health insurance costs, and wages between say the U.S. and China remains anywhere near where it is now, I can't imagine oil prices ever going high enough to offset the savings of producing products overseas and shipping them here.
Face it, in China's case, having being employed is the only thing that matters.

 

[snowywhite89]

It really isn't cost effective in most cases - yes, the worker is employed whereas back home he'd possibly be unemployed long term, but it also means taking on the costs of two households for the sake of a relatively low-wage job. We've known guys who have tried it, and it just doesn't work out as well as people seem to think it should.

Three of DH's friends went down to AZ to take advantage of the building boom when the market here in Michigan started going downhill (well ahead of the national bust), but their expenses were such that it just didn't pan out - it was a huge sacrifice in terms of time away from the family for less net income than a part time job flipping burgers would have brought. Rent in booming housing markets is high even with roommates, they needed a car and insurance down there where they'd all been one-car families up here, none of them were cooking at the end of the day so they were eating a lot of packaged/convenience foods, at home their wives were spending money to have things done that their husbands normally would have handled, and in the end it was adding little or nothing to the household bottom line.

So your solution is to not do anything and then lose your home. Got it.


I know people who have done this and it got them through the rough spot. Renting a room in a person's home or having 4 guys in a two bedroom is doable. I know people who have done that. I know a person who took a job in one of the highest cost of living areas and paid $600 for two rooms with use of the rest of the house.

A single car family is rare in the US. The only two families I know that are a single car family are both retired and were multi-car families during their working years.

How great is family life if you are hungry, cold and homeless?

 

[SanFranciscan]

I am getting uneasy with how explosive this thread could soon become, even though I believe that the OP started it with compassionate motives.

There is nothing new about companies wanting to privatize their profits and socialize their costs. More and more of the costs of doing business are being passed on to the taxpayers though, whether it is for the military to defend oil needed to haul merchandise from Third World countries which are gaining economic strength while the so-called "rich" countries are losing it, or whether it is for social services for people who can't afford housing and health care, or whether it is to bail out banks from foreclosures. The end result is that we have state and local governments which are broke. How do we fix that when the costs of salaries and benefits for government workers is often much higher than the taxable income of ever more private sector workers?

Those who blame unemployment on the unemployed are in for a rude awakening when they lose the patronage of those customers who were receiving unemployment benefits, with the operative word being "were".

This whole thing is depressing me, and I am not sure that I can handle anything else making me feel sad so I shall move on to a more cheery thread.

 

[Mickeyistheman]

I live in North Jersey and I know the town I live in was hit very hard. We have over 200 homes that are in foreclosure and ours is one of them. We have lived here for 20 years, taxes are out of this world and so many have lost their jobs and can't find new ones that will pay their mortgage let alone anything else.

It's been very difficult in my town and even others that live in PA and in the midwest.

Outsourcing is a major issue, and we also don't MAKE anything anymore in this country. The huge corporations are the only ones making a profit and making more money instead of giving raises to their employees.

I work for a very large company and they make very large profits however, the salaries for all employees were cut so that EVERYONE makes the same no matter the position, unless its in a Managerial one and even then its only $15,000 more. Companies are not paying people what they are worth and now its also age discrimination as well. It's a bit mess and I just don't understand how they can say that we are coming around but I really just don't see it. I also think that the people that are out spending and in the malls or local stores are putting alot on their credit cards.
I just wish everyone on here that is suffering right now especially this time of year, hope and faith. I have found that again, and that is what has been getting me through all of this right now. It's not easy and good friends are also a bonus. If you feel bad, come on the Dis and I know that many on here will make your day better. I know many have done that for me!

 

[MarkBarbieri]

If the huge gap in environmental costs, liability and health insurance costs, and wages between say the U.S. and China remains anywhere near where it is now, I can't imagine oil prices ever going high enough to offset the savings of producing products overseas and shipping them here.
Face it, in China's case, having being employed is the only thing that matters.

I can't imagine the gaps remaining like they are today. I can remember when we had similar gaps with South Korea, Japan, and Singapore and how we complained that their low cost workers allowed them to produce things much more cheaply. Now their labor costs rival ours, especially when you adjust for the higher productivity of US workers. I hope and expect that the same thing will happen in China and India. Their workers earn much more today than they did just a decade ago. If this trend continues, billions of people will be lifted from poverty. Hopefully, those newly middle-class and wealthy people will respond like their counterparts around the world and demand better environmental stewardship and better health care as well. they will be much better off and everyone in the world will benefit from the vastly improved productivity of all these people.

...Outsourcing is a major issue, and we also don't MAKE anything anymore in this country. The huge corporations are the only ones making a profit and making more money instead of giving raises to their employees...

It isn't as bad as you might think. The US still makes quite a bit. We are by far the leading manufacturing country in the world. Our manufacturing hasn't been declining, but our manufacturing employment has been. We have certainly lost some jobs to foreign competitors, although we've also gained many jobs from foreign customers.

One big reason for a decline in manufacturing jobs is that we've become so much more efficient. Manufacturing labor productivity has doubled in the past couple of decades. All of those computers, robots, and improved work processes have really had an impact on how much each person can do.

I know that you hear a steady drumbeat of negativity these days. I just don't buy it. I think that the carousel of progress is still turning and that our best days are still ahead of us.

 

[Tinker'n'Fun]

So your solution is to not do anything and then lose your home. Got it.


I know people who have done this and it got them through the rough spot. Renting a room in a person's home or having 4 guys in a two bedroom is doable. I know people who have done that. I know a person who took a job in one of the highest cost of living areas and paid $600 for two rooms with use of the rest of the house.

A single car family is rare in the US. The only two families I know that are a single car family are both retired and were multi-car families during their working years.

How great is family life if you are hungry, cold and homeless?

I am just replying to the bolded part because it is very close to home for me. We are a single car family. It is not uncommon to see my neighbors walking for groceries or to drug stores within the area. I walked down the neighborhood and out of 12 of my children's friends, 8 were also single car families. Some of those families have suffered job losses in the last year others are two income families. and I think 3 have SAHM or a SAHD (but I don't know if they work from home). Our unemployment rate is over 8%. My brother has been looking for a job in his field for over two years. He has worked many part-time jobs to pay their bills but in his field. Nada. His field has to do with computer/electronics/manual labor stuff if that matters.

My children work at the shelters with their schools. Both have said that the amount of people that need assistance is very, very overwhelming. What used to be middle class in our area is now defunct. Doesn't exist. The church is overwhelmed at holiday's so much that a questionairre went out asking if you could take a smaller holiday package or fore go it all together.

It used to bother me that DH was what I called "cheap" when we first married. He grew up in a very large family with one income and budgets, hand me downs, etc. were a way of life. Lets just say I grew up upper middle class.
We purchased a house way below what my friends were, we budgeted and did without more than I thought we needed to. We were only a two car family for the first few years of our marriage.

We are now "ok" and I pay my bills each month, get a vacation if I want (well I have to fight DH tooth and nail, but I do) the children have food and clothes, and if DH were to God-forbid lose his job we would be okay for a little while. He wouldn't accept being unemployed for long though and I am sure he would be doing whatever he could. It does scare me though that is looks as though even the go-to jobs are no longer available.

I say a prayer every night. Even for those states and cities that seem to be okay. You never know.

Sorry this was long, but this is really a serious situation. I hope the solution is found for everyone sooner than later.

 

[luvsJack]

So your solution is to not do anything and then lose your home. Got it.


I know people who have done this and it got them through the rough spot. Renting a room in a person's home or having 4 guys in a two bedroom is doable. I know people who have done that. I know a person who took a job in one of the highest cost of living areas and paid $600 for two rooms with use of the rest of the house.

A single car family is rare in the US. The only two families I know that are a single car family are both retired and were multi-car families during their working years.

How great is family life if you are hungry, cold and homeless?

Dh worked in construction for years and traveled all over the US. This worked great before we married and he didn't have a household back home.

One problem they always ran into was that in many, many areas (and this was several years ago, so it may very well be worse now) the rent was still too high for their wages. Several would try to go in together but some landlords would not allow more renters than the number of bedrooms (to prevent this very thing from happening) and so they were paying huge rent every month.

Then there is the lease. Now the job may be a 2 year job and it would be assumed that you could sign a 2 year lease. Not really. Men come and go on construction crews so if you sign a lease you better make darn sure you can pay the rent without your room mates who may not be there the next month. Or the money on the project may run out or the boss may have overestimated the time. Either way you are stuck with a lease and needing to move on to rent somewhere else.

For the short time he tried it, by the time DH got his check; paid his expenses there (he had to pay rent, sometimes a portion of utilities and for groceries) there wasn't really enough left to pay household bills and expenses. If he tried to do this today we would lose everything we have so it would be the same as doing nothing. Luckily at the time he was able to come back home and go into a driver's training program and start driving a truck.

 

[Colleen27]

Dh worked in construction for years and traveled all over the US. This worked great before we married and he didn't have a household back home.

One problem they always ran into was that in many, many areas (and this was several years ago, so it may very well be worse now) the rent was still too high for their wages. Several would try to go in together but some landlords would not allow more renters than the number of bedrooms (to prevent this very thing from happening) and so they were paying huge rent every month.

Then there is the lease. Now the job may be a 2 year job and it would be assumed that you could sign a 2 year lease. Not really. Men come and go on construction crews so if you sign a lease you better make darn sure you can pay the rent without your room mates who may not be there the next month. Or the money on the project may run out or the boss may have overestimated the time. Either way you are stuck with a lease and needing to move on to rent somewhere else.

For the short time he tried it, by the time DH got his check; paid his expenses there (he had to pay rent, sometimes a portion of utilities and for groceries) there wasn't really enough left to pay household bills and expenses. If he tried to do this today we would lose everything we have so it would be the same as doing nothing. Luckily at the time he was able to come back home and go into a driver's training program and start driving a truck.

That's exactly how we've seen it play out time and again, and that's a big part of why DH has never tried it. The only success story we've seen were immediately post-Katrina, when a bunch of DH's friends took an RV one of them owns down to the Gulf coast to pick up work. They did a lot of parking illegally in vacant lots, but they made good money that winter when they'd otherwise have been out of work up here in Michigan. But for the guys that have tried it as a long-term solution it ended up a big mess that caused a lot of stress for practically no money.

 

[Colleen27]

I am just replying to the bolded part because it is very close to home for me. We are a single car family. It is not uncommon to see my neighbors walking for groceries or to drug stores within the area. I walked down the neighborhood and out of 12 of my children's friends, 8 were also single car families. Some of those families have suffered job losses in the last year others are two income families. and I think 3 have SAHM or a SAHD (but I don't know if they work from home).

That's how it is around here too. Single car families are more common among my kids' friends and our neighbors than two-car families, and most of the two-car households are those who are insulated from the current economic climate like our across the street neighbors who are both retired teachers. We live in a very walkable town, so that second car is often one of the first luxuries to go when belts need tightened. I can see how it would be different in areas where there's no getting anywhere without a car, but that's one of the reasons we chose the town we live in - I can do 95% of everything I need to do on foot or bike, and I go days and sometimes even weeks without driving my van when the weather is good.

 

[mrodgers]

I can see how it would be different in areas where there's no getting anywhere without a car, but that's one of the reasons we chose the town we live in - I can do 95% of everything I need to do on foot or bike, and I go days and sometimes even weeks without driving my van when the weather is good.

I'm one who needs a car to get anywhere. Everyone has a car per driver. I could walk to the store, but averaging 3 mph walk, it would take me 13 hours to get there.

It's one of the reasons we chose where we live. A 2nd car is far cheaper than 3x the housing price if I lived near town.