I suspect Riviera must not be selling as well as they hoped it would

[bakerworld]

Don't understand the 'draw' for this venue - it looks like a casino to me without the cha-ching and there doesn't appear to be anything within walking distance except maybe CBR? What am I missing?

 

[chicagoshannon]

Don't understand the 'draw' for this venue - it looks like a casino to me without the cha-ching and there doesn't appear to be anything within walking distance except maybe CBR? What am I missing?

We aren't buying in but this property has a couple of things that appeal to me.

1. both studios and 1bedrooms sleep 5
2. murphey bed instead of a pull out couch
3. walking distance to a large food court. It's the one thing about the moderates that I love over the deluxe resorts.
4. gondolas to 2 parks.

If the points weren't so expensive and the points per room weren't so high we would buy in there regardless of the resale restrictions.

 

[crvetter]

We aren't buying in but this property has a couple of things that appeal to me.

1. both studios and 1bedrooms sleep 5
2. murphey bed instead of a pull out couch
3. walking distance to a large food court. It's the one thing about the moderates that I love over the deluxe resorts.
4. gondola's to 2 parks.

If the points weren't so expensive and the points per room weren't so high we would buy in there regardless of the resale restrictions.

I will say your 1-4 are the reasons I'm leaning towards an add-on at Riviera as opposed to going all in on buying resale at BCV or BWV for an Epcot resort.

 

[ljmiii]

Don't understand the 'draw' for this venue - it looks like a casino to me without the cha-ching and there doesn't appear to be anything within walking distance except maybe CBR? What am I missing?

The gondolas. If they are as pleasant as walking to BLT or BCV/BWV, Riviera will be *very* desirable. If getting to HS in the morning or getting back from EPCOT after the fireworks is problematic than not so much.

There are also some who are drawn to the 'luxury resort' themeing. To each their own.

 

[bakerworld]

We aren't buying in but this property has a couple of things that appeal to me.

1. both studios and 1bedrooms sleep 5
2. murphey bed instead of a pull out couch
3. walking distance to a large food court. It's the one thing about the moderates that I love over the deluxe resorts.
4. gondolas to 2 parks.

If the points weren't so expensive and the points per room weren't so high we would buy in there regardless of the resale restrictions.

Substitute boats for gondola and these are all good reasons to stay at the Fort Wilderness cabins (Murphy bed ) or Port Orleans Alligator Bayou (large food court ). We originally purchased at AK and then didn't stay there for 5 years because we like to be in walking distance to DTD/DS or a park. Then we became aware of the Spring Training and started staying at AK - which was a good thing because we fell in love , although we still only stay there when we in a park abeyance.

 

[chicagoshannon]

Substitute boats for gondola and these are all good reasons to stay at the Fort Wilderness cabins (Murphy bed ) or Port Orleans Alligator Bayou (large food court ). We originally purchased at AK and then didn't stay there for 5 years because we like to be in walking distance to DTD/DS or a park. Then we became aware of the Spring Training and started staying at AK - which was a good thing because we fell in love , although we still only stay there when we in a park abeyance.

I love both of those resorts. We honeymooned at POR. I've decided to hold off trying to convince DH to buy direct points until Reflections opens to be at the Fort.

 

[kboo]

Out of curiosity, I looked at availability in the latter half of December, when the resort is slated to open, and there are already days unavailable in all of the studio categories (standard, preferred, and tower). The 7 mo window for opening day opens on 5/16. It will be interesting to see how quickly December 2019 books up.

 

[kniquy]

For someone educated on DVC and the Riveria resale restrictions I am trying to see how it still can make sense for someone to buy.

I am thinking through a scenario:

Someone loves the resort and it suits their room size needs, location and amenities and buys in direct at $188 per point for 100 points (i don't think there are any incentives at this point amount). So for $18800 (plus closing) you are the proud owner of 100 Riviera points. You take ten years of trips with those points staying in studios (est avg cost per night of $500 for 7 nights = $3500+/-)

You then decide to sell. Despite the strict restrictions of only using at Riviera, DVD will still have a say in where the resale market sits for pricing. They will not let it sell for too cheap- it is on property and is attached to transportation. My guess is the resale price will be around $140 to $150pp, which means you sell your contract between $14000 to 15,000 (not accounting for closing costs).

10 years of vacations cost you $4800 (+ yearly MF).

One who is really uncertain of the resale market could wait to buy Riviera to see where the resale market falls. In about 6-8 months we will see the first of the Riviera resale contract show up. So anyone unsure should just wait a year, see what resale prices will end up at and then buy if it still makes financial sense.

If Riviera is truly spectacular then the restrictions might not actually deter resale buyers like we think. There are plenty of people who bought BC and BW because they travel for food and wine every year and that is where they always stay. There will be people who buy Riviera for the same reasons with no desire to stay anywhere else, they will book at 11 months because if the don't their points will be wasted. If they can't travel at that time they will bank points or book and rent out a reservation.

 

[Anthony Vito]

There is a lot of mention as to the effect the restrictions will have on sales/will not have on sales and educated vs. savvy purchasers. Ignoring the discussion as to the method they've chosen to enact these restrictions and whether they properly achieve what they've said they do, I think the restrictions themselves are not properly viewed through a lens of Riviera direct sales even over the course of the next year.

1) The effect on sales (as some have suggested) will be seen when the resale market begins for Riviera. It's at that point that that the value of the contracts potentially takes a hit and where Disney can then influence purchasers to buy direct instead of resale. As one person pointed out though, they will likely try to keep the market high so as not to tank the value. Additionally, the difference between resale and direct at that point need to be not so vastly different so as to still push people to buy resale despite the restrictions.

2) Despite what I agree could be shortsightedness on Disney's part in tanking the value of resale contracts in the future. (As everyone points out, a robust resale market with higher values keeps the value increased of DVC. Plus, if there's not a drastic difference in price between resale and direct, one is more likely to purchase direct because the perks are worth said difference. If Disney's selling at $220/point, but resale is $50, it's a hard sales pitch to make.)

However, this may not be shortsightedness at all, but could actually be Disney looking much further down the line. By writing restrictions into these deeds now, they are creating the ability to have much greater control as they move forward. If they did not do so now, they would be in the same predicament down the road wherein they are limited in changes they can make as a result of the language in the deeds and collective ownership limitations on changing for some and not others. By putting these restrictions into all of the deeds for Riviera and Reflections and other future properties, they are creating that ability for years to come. Then, once the 2042 resort deeds expire, they will be able to create restrictions for future sales of those resorts.

The reality is, if Disney hopes to exert greater control in this area, they have to start somewhere and they likely see it as a need to start at the beginning of sales of a resort rather than coming up with ways to make changes at resorts with deeds already owned and in the marketplace.

 

[CarolynFH]

Out of curiosity, I looked at availability in the latter half of December, when the resort is slated to open, and there are already days unavailable in all of the studio categories (standard, preferred, and tower). The 7 mo window for opening day opens on 5/16. It will be interesting to see how quickly December 2019 books up.

Just keep in mind that only limited inventory has been declared into the condominium so far (so that it can be sold). As sales progress and more units are declared, availability will increase temporarily, until it’s booked up again.

If I wanted to book at Riviera while it was still being sold, and there’s was no availability when I tried to book, I’d waitlist. The WL would very likely fill the next time a new declaration was made.

 

[CarolMN]

Plus opening day for a new resort is always popular.

 

[Jerry@dvcstore]

Changing the resale restrictions would definitely make it more appealing.

I was interested in adding at Riviera, but since the resale restrictions I am going to stick with the original 14. The Riviera resale prices are going to be too unpredictable and I don't want to buy into a resort with that in the back of my mind. If they removed the restrictions....I would be very tempted, but not gonna happen with the restrictions...

 

[Drewferin]

Well my guide called again today but i didn't answer. I'm still torn if we should buy more AKV or jump into RIV. Until a price increase is announced at some point I guess I still have time to sit on the fence and observe. Stupid restrictions really prevented me from RIV as I originally planned.
On a side note, I can not see Disney buying RIV in ROFR while it is still selling direct so maybe by the end of this year we will see where prices start to settle.

 

[ljmiii]

I know but man, the wording in this new Riviera contract I just got is crazy! I was ready to sign on the dotted line knowing in advance about the resale restrictions....

The resale restriction issues are problematic enough. But the Riviera POS has issues even for an owner of Riviera who just wants to stay at Riviera through 2070...

Exhibit F DVC Membership Agreement
3.3 The twenty percent reallocation limitation shall not apply to increases or decreases in Home Resort Vacation Point reservation requirements relating to designated periods of high demand based on Club Member use patterns...as determined by DVCM in its discretion. (Instead of BVW's "periods of high demand which do not occur on the same Use Day each year.)

4.2b Reservation Requests - Club Members can be put on a special season preference list that supersedes the first come, first served Reservation system...The Home Resort Priority Period will be subject to any preference list rights...In addition, DVCM reserves the right to modify the Home Resort Priority Period for a new DVC Resort...to give greater priority...to Members with Home Resort Priority at the new DVC Resort.

4.2d Confirmations and Cancellations, 4.2e Minimum and Maximum Stays, and 4.2f Vacation Home Inventory Management -
[DVCM can mess with home resort reservations more or less however it wants]

4.10 DVD Future Restrictions, Limitations, or Changes - DVD reserves the right, at its discretion, to restrict or limit certain reservation features for select Club Members or categories of Club Members as it determines in its discretion from time to time...
4.10a - DVD can do anything to Riviera owners and their points
4.10b - Anything DVD does to Riviera owners and their points doesn't apply to those owned by DVD
4.10c - DVD can require DVCM to modify Riviera's Resort Rules and Regulation however it wants

...and if you do want to exchange into another DVC Resort...

Exhibit (G) - DVC Resort Agreement

5.2 ...In addition, with respect to certain DVC Resorts, including the Riviera Resort, BVTC reserves the right to charge an in-bound exchange fee, including if the DVC Resort experiences higher than anticipated use demain relative to other DVC Resorts.

5.3 ...BVTC, in its discretion, also reserves the right to establish other special or event preference periods for new DVC Resorts based on the particular circumstances of the new DVC Resort.

Also, sprinkled through the contract are new 'No Warranties / can't sue us' clauses. (F) 3.8, (G) 5.5, and (G) 10.X

 

[Madame]

The resale restriction issues are problematic enough. But the Riviera POS has issues even for an owner of Riviera who just wants to stay at Riviera through 2070...

Exhibit F DVC Membership Agreement
3.3 The twenty percent reallocation limitation shall not apply to increases or decreases in Home Resort Vacation Point reservation requirements relating to designated periods of high demand based on Club Member use patterns...as determined by DVCM in its discretion. (Instead of BVW's "periods of high demand which do not occur on the same Use Day each year.)

4.2b Reservation Requests - Club Members can be put on a special season preference list that supersedes the first come, first served Reservation system...The Home Resort Priority Period will be subject to any preference list rights...In addition, DVCM reserves the right to modify the Home Resort Priority Period for a new DVC Resort...to give greater priority...to Members with Home Resort Priority at the new DVC Resort.

4.2d Confirmations and Cancellations, 4.2e Minimum and Maximum Stays, and 4.2f Vacation Home Inventory Management -
[DVCM can mess with home resort reservations more or less however it wants]

4.10 DVD Future Restrictions, Limitations, or Changes - DVD reserves the right, at its discretion, to restrict or limit certain reservation features for select Club Members or categories of Club Members as it determines in its discretion from time to time...
4.10a - DVD can do anything to Riviera owners and their points
4.10b - Anything DVD does to Riviera owners and their points doesn't apply to those owned by DVD
4.10c - DVD can require DVCM to modify Riviera's Resort Rules and Regulation however it wants

...and if you do want to exchange into another DVC Resort...

Exhibit (G) - DVC Resort Agreement

5.2 ...In addition, with respect to certain DVC Resorts, including the Riviera Resort, BVTC reserves the right to charge an in-bound exchange fee, including if the DVC Resort experiences higher than anticipated use demain relative to other DVC Resorts.

5.3 ...BVTC, in its discretion, also reserves the right to establish other special or event preference periods for new DVC Resorts based on the particular circumstances of the new DVC Resort.

Also, sprinkled through the contract are new 'No Warranties / can't sue us' clauses. (F) 3.8, (G) 5.5, and (G) 10.X

Given what they’ve done just in the last year alone, I wouldn’t buy at DRR, but yeah, this is a free for all. I hope anyone buying resale here knows what that could be in for.

 

[crvetter]

3.3 The twenty percent reallocation limitation shall not apply to increases or decreases in Home Resort Vacation Point reservation requirements relating to designated periods of high demand based on Club Member use patterns...as determined by DVCM in its discretion. (Instead of BVW's "periods of high demand which do not occur on the same Use Day each year.)

This has existed since BRV Declarations, so very consistent. What I took this to mean is that they can subscribe days of the week to certain events such as F&W so that if F&W shifts by a couple days they can treat it similar to how Thanksgiving is floating.

4.2b Reservation Requests - Club Members can be put on a special season preference list that supersedes the first come, first served Reservation system...The Home Resort Priority Period will be subject to any preference list rights...In addition, DVCM reserves the right to modify the Home Resort Priority Period for a new DVC Resort...to give greater priority...to Members with Home Resort Priority at the new DVC Resort.

This is in the Rules and Regulations, which dictate how the system works for reservations and laid out in the membership agreement as this is the case, for all resorts. Again nothing new and applies to all resorts. I've been told it has never been utilized. What this is for is say Christmas week is always popular you would sign up and say you want Christmas week and those on the special season preference list would just be automatically assigned to a room. But it would be still a first come first serve basis I was told when I discussed with DVC just it would be a reoccuring spot. Also DVC has done something similar in the past where certain days were lottery based way back in the beginning.

4.2d Confirmations and Cancellations, 4.2e Minimum and Maximum Stays, and 4.2f Vacation Home Inventory Management -
[DVCM can mess with home resort reservations more or less however it wants]

Again these sections are similar to the other resorts. D & E existed since Boardwalk (maybe even OKW). As for F that showed up in BLT but it basically says they can reserve rooms for meeting RCI requirements (which they have to for participating in) and scheduling maintenance. Breakage which is kind of what I think you are alluding too is another section and is mandated to be between 30-90 days.

4.10 DVD Future Restrictions, Limitations, or Changes - DVD reserves the right, at its discretion, to restrict or limit certain reservation features for select Club Members or categories of Club Members as it determines in its discretion from time to time...
4.10a - DVD can do anything to Riviera owners and their points
4.10b - Anything DVD does to Riviera owners and their points doesn't apply to those owned by DVD
4.10c - DVD can require DVCM to modify Riviera's Resort Rules and Regulation however it wants

...and if you do want to exchange into another DVC Resort...

This is the concerning section that is hard to defend. However, if they don't grandfather people in when they make restrictions they lose all faith any consumer (direct or resale) would ever have in their product. Thus effectively killing DVC probably.

Exhibit (G) - DVC Resort Agreement

5.2 ...In addition, with respect to certain DVC Resorts, including the Riviera Resort, BVTC reserves the right to charge an in-bound exchange fee, including if the DVC Resort experiences higher than anticipated use demain relative to other DVC Resorts.

This is a section most suspect that eventually will lead to the excluded resale contracts being able to pay to access the resort. In theory you are right it doesn't dictate any class of owner and could apply to all. However, my guess is again they would grandfather owners something to date they have avoided doing. So anyone that can trade for free will likely always be able to trade for free. So those that can't trade in will have to pay if they decide to go that route. Once they stop grandfathering owners it is time to run for the hills.

5.3 ...BVTC, in its discretion, also reserves the right to establish other special or event preference periods for new DVC Resorts based on the particular circumstances of the new DVC Resort.

This is a new addition that I had missed. Though the current Rules and Regulations (as of November 2018) allowed for something similar to this already under 10(h). Though the geographic wording is somewhat new.

 

[ljmiii]

This has existed since BRV Declarations, so very consistent. What I took this to mean is that they can subscribe days of the week to certain events such as F&W so that if F&W shifts by a couple days they can treat it similar to how Thanksgiving is floating...

Fair enough. I commented in POS order so the first few concerns are minor...

Again these sections are similar to the other resorts. D & E existed since Boardwalk (maybe even OKW)...

Yup...I just missed it.

This is a section most suspect that eventually will lead to the excluded resale contracts being able to pay to access the resort.

I think this is more saying that BVTC may charge a fee each time an owner trades into another DVC resort (as other timeshare systems do). 5.6 (d) is the section that says DVD can charge for resale buyers to be "converted" into direct ones.

This is the concerning section that is hard to defend. However, if they don't grandfather people in when they make restrictions they lose all faith any consumer (direct or resale) would ever have in their product. Thus effectively killing DVC probably....

...In theory you are right it doesn't dictate any class of owner and could apply to all. However, my guess is again they would grandfather owners something to date they have avoided doing. So anyone that can trade for free will likely always be able to trade for free. So those that can't trade in will have to pay if they decide to go that route. Once they stop grandfathering owners it is time to run for the hills.

Yeah...this is the hardest part for me. I've loved our DVC ownership but am not feeling any 'goodwill' from DVC at the moment. Half a year ago I thought I would add on at Riviera (assuming the gondolas were half way decent). Now I'm starting to think that selling might be the right idea before they get any more wacky ideas.

 

[crvetter]

I think this is more saying that BVTC may charge a fee each time an owner trades into another DVC resort (as other timeshare systems do). 5.6 (d) is the section that says DVD can charge for resale buyers to be "converted" into direct ones.

Yeah I was referring to this also. I might not have been clear. Some feel this might happen and saw this section. I was just stating it’s likely those that can trade into riviera know probably will always be grandfathered in for free. What I was saying was exactly the same as you but with the caveat it would likely apply to only those with resale after 1/19/19 and not to those before or direct owners.

 

[Bambi19]

When I bought a couple of weeks ago or so, I wanted only 76 points and a different use year from my resale contract.
My guide told me it would not be a problem at all, he said getting a different use year with less than the 100 minimum isn’t too much of a problem if they have a good reason, but now I’m suspecting that they actually had already changed (or were talking about changing) the minimum to 75.

 

[Bambi19]

Don't understand the 'draw' for this venue - it looks like a casino to me without the cha-ching and there doesn't appear to be anything within walking distance except maybe CBR? What am I missing?

For me it’s the option of the tower studios although I’m sure they’ll be limited, the studios sleep 5 as well as the one-bedrooms, the square footage is very large for the studios, also the gondolas and restaurants look like they might be pluses, but we will see about that. and although I do not like the condo-ish look of the exterior, I love the interior design. I truly am hoping that in person, the exterior looks more charming than it appears in the artist rendering.
Edited to add I like the size of the resort, and it seems like everything in the resort is easily within walking distance.