I shouldnt be suprised at this point...

[jimmiej]

Then why did you say you aren't interested in "the acts", in this post?

And why choose scripture that references people, not acts, for bolding, as here?

I don't understand your first question. Not sure what post you're referring to.

My question about homosexual "acts" was whether or not the Episcopals on this thread considered that sin.

The scripture reference was in regard to what the church is required to do with members participating in the activities. Another poster said it was not my business, since I'm not Episcopalian.

 

[Laura]

As you know, the scpriture doesn't differentiate between Christian denominations. I was speaking of the universal Church, i.e. ALL believers. JMO, but I don't believe God cares one bit what denomination we belong to.

But why do you care what another denomination does? Isn't there a reason why there is more than one denomination? What an Episcopalian bishop says doesn't affect you. If I were still a Christian, I would probably still be a Catholic--if that were the case, I don't feel I have authority to criticize another denomination's interpretation of the Bible. That's why we have so many denominations in Christianity, so that people can choose which ones best suit their personalities.

 

[AnaheimGirl]

I don't understand your first question. Not sure what post you're referring to.

I was referring to the post quoted immediately after the question.

I know you weren't talking to me when you said "please read my posts again", but I did anyway. You said you were only talking about homosexual acts, however, to my reading, your previous posts contradicted that.

 

[jimmiej]

But why do you care what another denomination does? Isn't there a reason why there is more than one denomination? What an Episcopalian bishop says doesn't affect you. If I were still a Christian, I would probably still be a Catholic--if that were the case, I don't feel I have authority to criticize another denomination's interpretation of the Bible. That's why we have so many denominations in Christianity, so that people can choose which ones best suit their personalities.

Like the OP, I think it's sad that the bishop is teaching her members to believe lies. The Bible is in direct conflict with her views on this particular subject. This is very dangerous.

 

[jimmiej]

I was referring to the post quoted immediately after the question.

I know you weren't talking to me when you said "please read my posts again", but I did anyway. You said you were only talking about homosexual acts, however, to my reading, your previous posts contradicted that.

My point was, God is accepting of anyone, no matter their past. But a Christian participating in these activities (or in this case, a minister OKing these activities) with no intention of changing is walking a dangerous tightrope. Go back and re-read the scripture I posted.

 

[goofy4tink]

Oh man......I wasn't going to get into this, I really wasn't.
You know....as a cradle born Episcopalian, and a sitting member of my church's governing board, I have to say something most of you will find somewhat shocking....the Bible was written by mere mortals!! It is said that the words in the Bible are the word of God, that have been written down by man. Well, I have to say that some of it leaves me wondering. Do I believe every little thing that is written in the Bible? Nope...guess I should pack my short-shorts now, it's gonna be hot where I'm going!! I have seen 5 priests, sit and read the exact same passage in 5 different publications of Bibles and come up with 5 different thoughts as to the meanings.
I think we would be better served following the 10 Commandments in the long run. Do I worry about offending my Jewish friends as I sit eating a nice pork roast, or offending my RC buddies if I eat a nice cheeseburger on Friday night during Lent? Nope. Their beliefs are their beliefs. Just as mine are mine. Do I respect thier beliefs? Sure do.

My uncle, a deacon in his church in Manchester NH, yes the hotbed of the Gene Robinson controversy, has left his church because of the whole thing. He thinks its an abomination. My mother, his sister, on the other hand, thought it was a great thing to have an openly gay bishop. I'm sure that having this new PB is going to cause a bit of flack....may even divide some areas of the church. But, it will come out fine. Most of us really aren't all that concerned with what others are doing in their bedrooms. Of course, if that behavior is hurting children, that's a whole different story. But, to the best of my knowledge, most of the gay/lesbian people I know (and it's a huge number, including family members) are hugely against groups such as nambla..hate the whole idea, and have no more interest in being with children than you or I have.

So, I guess I'll leave the judging to God, when I get there. If God doesn't like the way I've lived my life, then he/she can deal with it then. I'll take my chances. Others can do the same...I'm not judging them, that's God's job.

Oh, and by the way....we Episcopalians would love to see more of you. And are very happy to see that we have new members...welcome to the group!!! We are, obviously, a diverse group, and mostly open minded, trying to be non-judgemental!!!

So, time will tell how our new PB does. Not sure what her previous history in marine biology says about her...shouldn't make any difference. There are a lot of people taking up the church as a late in life career..I don't think we should look down our noses at them just because they came to the church late in life.

 

[Muziqal]

Like the OP, I think it's sad that the bishop is teaching her members to believe lies. The Bible is in direct conflict with her views on this particular subject. This is very dangerous.

Why "dangerous"? Christianity didn't "evolve" into what it is today because new commandments were thrown down from the heavens and new scriptures were miraculouslyfound painted on the ceilings of a church. It took bold, powerful, influential, good, and bad people interpreting the bible over a couple thousand years to change the course of history and make Christianity what it is today. Debates and different interpretations made what you believe to be the truth what it is today...not just the original words spoken by Jesus or the original scriptures written about him. Man made organized religion. Or in this case, women are now too. Good for her.

What is dangerous about bringing about discussion through new interpretations that may some day shape the course of history? Will the sky fall? Will the seas boil? Is this the apocalypse? Christianity is pumped full of fear...no wonder it's your first reaction.

For better or worse, Christianity could use a little house cleaning and some fresh ideas. The amount of hostility, ridicule and criticism created by Jesus "lovers" is growing tiresome...

 

[RoyalCanadian]

Ah yes -- you know you've created God in your own image when God hates all the same people you do.

As for the homosexual agenda -- I think someone posted it here about a year ago. I never realized how hard they are working at pushing it -- it ran something like this:

7am alarm rang, got out of bed...

 

[Laura]

Like the OP, I think it's sad that the bishop is teaching her members to believe lies. The Bible is in direct conflict with her views on this particular subject. This is very dangerous.

Tough to tell who's lying. Like I said, her beliefs are none of my business, because she isn't advocating that anyone go out and kill non-believers. Not having a literal interpretation of a religious scripture is hardly dangerous.

 

[Thizz]

First off, the Bible and the Qu'ran denounce homosexual intercourse (the Qu'ran explicitly denounces anal intercourse). Not being homosexual, but rather having homosexual intercourse. The issues with following this explicitly is wrong in two respects. As already touched upon, this was written by men. Furthermore, these men lived in a much less tolerant society. So, by following this gospel, as if it were the actually word of god, you are following the words of some no name in respect to history, who could have been influenced in his writings by the time period's thoughts on sexuality, and his own personal biases.

As for this Bishop. I hope that she lives a long and prosperous life. I hope that she helps change mainstream christian thoughts on homosexuality. As for you homophobes, I'm glad you believe in a forgiving god, because the day will come when you will need to answer for your blatant sins against a great number of good people.

 

[jimmiej]

Tough to tell who's lying. Like I said, her beliefs are none of my business, because she isn't advocating that anyone go out and kill non-believers. Not having a literal interpretation of a religious scripture is hardly dangerous.

I'll ask again, how do you know which parts to take literally and which parts to skim over? How can Christians use the Bible as a guide to living the kind of life God wants from us, if we not sure about it's authenticity? ETA: And, if we don't use the Bible (for the reasons stated by many of you), what's to keep us from just following any old whim? Actually, that's sounds a lot like today's Church. That's what I (and may I be so bold to include the OP) am saddened by the bishop's words.

Ah yes -- you know you've created God in your own image when God hates all the same people you do.

I never said God hated anyone. As a matter of fact, I said just the opposite. Keep your hate to yourself, please.

God hates our sin. My reason for participating in this thread was to show what the Bible says about homosexual acts and to see what other Christians think (since the OP was about a Christian minister's thoughts on the subject).

 

[discernment]

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/calthomas/2006/06/22/202096.html

"As the Episcopal leadership continues to huff and puff to catch up with the world, it would be helpful if it could tell its members what it regards as sinful behavior, or will the very concept of sin soon be up for negotiation in order to avoid giving offense to anyone?
Truly what Paul, the Apostle, warned would happen in the "end times" is coming true in our day: "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine, instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn away from the truth and turn aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:3-4 NIV). "

"No wonder liberal denominations are losing members while the conservative ones are growing. The liberal ones don't seem to care. Seeking only to be "relevant" they face condemnation from the One they are supposed to represent, whose attitude about such things is anything but "inclusive." "

 

[discernment]

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=916012006

"Many African bishops condemn homosexuality as un-biblical, un-African and morally wrong.

In Nigeria, the Anglican Bishop of Lagos West, Peter Adebiyi, said the vote was a step in the right direction, but that gay bishops already serving in the United States should step down."

Daniel Yinkah Sarfo, the Anglican Bishop of Kumasi in Ghana, said the acceptance of gay bishops was chasing young people away and eroding the moral teaching at the heart of church's faith.

"Homosexuality is against our biblical teachings. We are not going to succumb to any compromise," he told Reuters.

"The Anglican Church is suffering because of it," he said. "We love the Episcopal Church in America, there is no doubt about that, but this is a matter of faith."

 

[eclectics]

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/calthomas/2006/06/22/202096.html

"As the Episcopal leadership continues to huff and puff to catch up with the world, it would be helpful if it could tell its members what it regards as sinful behavior, or will the very concept of sin soon be up for negotiation in order to avoid giving offense to anyone?
Truly what Paul, the Apostle, warned would happen in the "end times" is coming true in our day: "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine, instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn away from the truth and turn aside to myths." (2 Timothy 4:3-4 NIV). "

"No wonder liberal denominations are losing members while the conservative ones are growing. The liberal ones don't seem to care. Seeking only to be "relevant" they face condemnation from the One they are supposed to represent, whose attitude about such things is anything but "inclusive." "

Why do you insist on dredging up these ultra right wing websites? We know their opinions on the facts in this issue match your own. We get it! That horse died pages ago.

 

[RoyalCanadian]

I never said God hated anyone. As a matter of fact, I said just the opposite. Keep your hate to yourself, please.

Wow Jimmie. You're feeling rather sensitive about something I posted that had nothing to do with anything you wrote.

 

[RoyalCanadian]

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=916012006

"Many African bishops condemn homosexuality as un-biblical, un-African and morally wrong.

Before you start holding up the Anglican bishops of Africa as the exemplars of faith, please do some research. There is one, in particular, with tremendous political power within his own country who has managed to lobby his country's government to suspend basic human rights for homosexuals.

Those of us who claim to possess the greatest truth of God's love freely given for us through Jesus Christ are duty bound to demonstrate that same greatest love to all others, regardless of whom they may chose to love.

 

[Saxsoon]

Those of us who claim to possess the greatest truth of God's love freely given for us through Jesus Christ are duty bound to demonstrate that same greatest love to all others, regardless of whom they may chose to love.

Very True.

 

[Laura]

I'll ask again, how do you know which parts to take literally and which parts to skim over? How can Christians use the Bible as a guide to living the kind of life God wants from us, if we not sure about it's authenticity? ETA: And, if we don't use the Bible (for the reasons stated by many of you), what's to keep us from just following any old whim? Actually, that's sounds a lot like today's Church. That's what I (and may I be so bold to include the OP) am saddened by the bishop's words.

Naturally, I don't know exactly every place in the Bible that is to be taken literally or figuratively. That's for the theologians to figure out. But I did spend several years as an English major studying various texts--one thing I do know for sure is that two people can look at the exact same words and interpret them very differently. What stops me from following any old whim, by the way, is a sense of moral decency that doesn't come from any religion. I don't need the wrath of God to frighten me into doing the right thing.

I just can't imagine why you can't just ignore the scriptural interpretation of another denomination's bishop who has nothing to do with you. I just don't think it's your place to tell her what she should be saying based on your version of Christianity. Being disappointed and disagreeing is one thing, but I think calling her views "dangerous" takes things a bit too far. If she'd said homosexual acts are evil, I'd just shrug and say "too bad". It's up to the Episcopalians to decide what they want to do about it.

 

[goofy4tink]

I have to say that I have yet to agree 100% with every single thing a bishop or a priest has said, or believed in. Yes, I have had some of the same beliefs, but others I have not agreed with. So, can I pick and choose what I want to believe? I think I can. I refuse to blindly go down that road that says I have to believe just because. Nope, not happening. Is the Episcopalian church 100% correct? Nope, but at this point they offer the beliefs that most closely mirror mine. And yes, the church has changed over the years. It is a very fluid, changing being. All changes have not been to my likeing but so be it. I take what I need and leave the rest behind. I consider myself to be pretty spiritual and a follower of Christ. I think I'm doing okay. Some may disagree but that's their choice. Just because a bishop says something doesn't mean I'm automatically dropping everything and jumping on her/his bandwagon. I've disagreed with bishops before and I'm pretty sure I'll do so again in the future.

 

[katytrott]

Unfortunately when man "organized" religion he gave birth to all the infighting you are going to have when a group of men and women get together. Sadly, it goes with the territory.

Sadly, you are so right. My Dad and I were discussing this only a few days ago. I once saw a "tree" of the history of the Christian church. Obviously it went straight back to Jesus and the disciples. It was staggering to see, over the centuries how more and more denominations branched off from it, to literally thousands now around the world. How incredibly sad is that? It goes without saying Christianity as a religion would now be seen as so very diluted and full of hypocracy.

As you rightly said, this was man's doing and, I am sure, down to a control issue. I see this happening in church's today. Where someone thinks "I'll be the Leader" (notice the Disney link there - Aristocats ) and so takes his own little group of followers off to believe in something that suits them. Heck, the protestant church was born this way!! (Henry VIII and his many wives). This is human behaviour and just shows our failings. I have learnt that this is not Gods fault, he gave us free will and man chose to behave like this. I am certainly not going to miss out on a life time on earth being close to God or eternity with him in the next, just because I see man/the church behaving hypocritically.

I go to a church now that has it's failings, every organization will, but these things are quite insignificant. They have God and his word at the heart of everything, and with God in charge, the church can stay strong and remain the heart of the local community. Nothing is done religiously, down to everything like the worship, and by following God's lead the church is growing and reaching out to more and more of the community (trust me, it is a community that needs God) and helping it in practical, emotional and spiritual ways, therefore, showing the love of Christ. God is blessing us in so many ways, our worship band, are getting known globally and are having the opportunity to reach out and help more and more people than just our small community (just incase some of you reading have heard of them - Delirious?). The thriving churches in our society (in the UK anyway) are the ones that don't have some huge leadership like Bishops etc. Nope, just an eldership team made up equally of youth worker, preacher, worship leader, pastoral leader, outreach leader etc, etc (a variation on that theme anyway).

I stand firm to the belief that if the Church followed God and his heart, it would be a totaly different organisation to what is seen today. Unfortunately, the media only shows the bad, the ugly and the controversial side of the Church, not the individual lives and communities that have been radically transformed and saved all around the world. I promise there are thousands of churches all around the world (I know within a variety of denominations) that are growing in exactly the same way as mine, who, I am sure will help everyone reading this thread see a different side to Christianity, and more importantly, God.

Please, please, please don't anyone be put off a true faith with God by what you see in the media, the conflicting opinions of Bishop's, the opinions of some on these boards and any past experience with a church or known Christian. I've wasted many years blaming exactly all these things.

Sorry, just realised I've kinda written an essay here