I shouldnt be suprised at this point...

[eclectics]

The same could be said about GLAAD or any other mainline gay organization in the recent past but look where we stand today.

Incrementalism. Thank you for helping prove my point.

The only thing I, and others, have proved is your total lack of knowlege on the subject you are trying so desperately to spin in your direction. I applaud your decision to take this to the G&L board. I look forward to seeing it.

 

[goofygirl]

Discernment, since you are so concerned with the fate of the Episcopal church I've decided to make a donation to my Episcopal church in your name. (I will just use the name "Discernment" on the envelope since I don't know your real name).

I can't wait til Sunday

 

[VSL]

Is being gay a lifestyle choice?

I answered this on the previous page:

Either way, I believe that neither homosexuality or paedophilia are a choice, but homosexuality is legal and harms no one while acting upon paedophilia DOES harm someone.

Not to mention the numerous studies/research done on homosexuals a few decades back. You do realise that psychologists who thought that homosexuality was an 'illness' used to take homosexuals (male) and make them watch homosexual porn and if aroused they would be shocked (electrically)? It's called aversion therapy. They would also lock them up and give them gay porn mags/pics and also fill them up with stuff to make them vomit and whatnot so that they would associate being ill with homosexuality (called classical conditioning).

Guess what? IT DIDN'T WORK.
I would imagine that the same would apply to paedophiles, but again, paedophilia hurts someone and is illegal for that very reason.

The 'gay lifestyle' (I'm talking about the stereotype here) is a choice (it's not limited to homosexuals, and not all homosexuals live the stereotype), but not the sexual orientation.

I need to emphasize here that the definition of pedophilia is NOT wanting to have sex with a 17-year-old. It's wanting to have sex with someone who isn't emotionally and sexually mature, aka a prepubescent child.

 

[NewJersey]

Discernment, since you are so concerned with the fate of the Episcopal church I've decided to make a donation to my Episcopal church in your name. (I will just use the name "Discernment" on the envelope since I don't know your real name).

I can't wait til Sunday

 

[mickeyfan2]

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?p=13131736#post13131736

Thank you.

When I get a chance I will read it. Should be very enlightening.

 

[jimmiej]

And furthermore, you and I have no right to criticize the opinion of a religious leader when that opinion isn't inciting any believers to harm people. If this Presiding Bishop were denouncing homosexuality as against her religion, well, that's her right. Far be it from me to tell her what to say or do.

Incorrect! The church has a scriptural duty to monitor it's own members.

1 Corinthians 5

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

 

[L107ANGEL]

Thank you.



Nope!!! Just really frustrating!

 

[eclectics]

I read yesterday that the Presbyterians are very close to allowing Gays and Lesbians to hold positions of power also. Can the Methodists or the Lutherans be far behind?

 

[jimmiej]

From the original link:

Asked how she reconciled her position on homosexuality with specific passages in the Bible declaring sexual relations between men an abomination, Jefferts Schori said the Bible was written in a very different historical context by people asking different questions.

"The Bible has a great deal to teach us about how to live as human beings. The Bible does not have so much to teach us about what sorts of food to eat, what sorts of clothes to wear -- there are rules in the Bible about those that we don't observe today," she said.

RE: rules about certain foods, the bishop is correct. Those are Old Testament laws not required of New Testament Christians.

Romans 14

As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

RE: clothing. Not much in the New Testament. A little in 1 Timothy 2.

More from the article:

"The Bible tells us about how to treat other human beings, and that's certainly the great message of Jesus -- to include the unincluded."

Can't argue with this. Jesus says we should be accepting of all. He certainly was.

However, the New Testament is clear RE: homosexual acts! A person engaging in these activities is committing sin!

I Corinthians 6

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Also...

Romans I

God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Did you catch that last verse? Quite a timely statement for something written ~2000 years ago.

I would like the Episcopals on this thread (or other Christians who agree with them) to answer one question. Are homosexual acts sinful according to scripture?

 

[HOGFAN]

just because a behavior is inate doesnt make it right or moral

 

[eclectics]

I would like the Episcopals on this thread (or other Christians who agree with them) to answer one question. Are homosexual acts sinful according to scripture?

Not when the original Greek version of the bible is unclear on the word "homosexual". It is thought the original word was the Greek word for pedophile and down through the ages and translations, homosexual was inserted. Pedophiles and Homosexuals are not the same thing. Divorce is sinful also. It doesn't seem to stop 50% of straight couples from doing it or probably not asking God's forgiveness either. And no, I do not want to start a "literal" Bible debate. I prefer to err on human translation misinterpretation rather than believing God disapproves of an entire group of his children and finds them sinful.

 

[cardaway]

I would like the Episcopals on this thread (or other Christians who agree with them) to answer one question. Are homosexual acts sinful according to scripture?

We know that you feel your interpretation is the only correct one. We have been down that road before, no reason to go down it again.

 

[VanBrujah]

It is interesting to note that discernment and the rest of the homophobes constantly hammer away (no pun intended) on the sexual aspect of homesexual relationships. They don't give a damn about 2 people who are committed to each other, who love each other, - they are just interested in what those 2 people are doing in the bedroom.

THAT'S deviant behavior, if you ask me.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

just because a behavior is inate doesnt make it right or moral

It also doesn't make it equatable to harming children in a vile manner.

 

[jimmiej]

Not when the original Greek version of the bible is unclear on the word "homosexual". It is thought the original word was the Greek word for pedophile and down through the ages and translations, homosexual was inserted. Pedophiles and Homosexuals are not the same thing. Divorce is sinful also. It doesn't seem to stop 50% of straight couples from doing it or probably not asking God's forgiveness either. And no, I do not want to start a "literal" Bible debate. I prefer to err on human translation misinterpretation rather than believing God disapproves of an entire group of his children and finds them sinful.

1) I was talking about an "act", not a group of people. The Bible is clear that God loves EVERYONE, but He WILL NOT tolerate our sin.

2) The Bible says God hates divorce. IA with you there. As far as your 50%, remember we're talking about Christians, not the general public.

3) According to your logic, we really don't know what to believe about the Bible. What parts do we take literal and vice versa? Therefore, I choose to believe EXACTLY what it says. How else can we use it as a guide in our lives?

 

[jimmiej]

They don't give a damn about 2 people who are committed to each other, who love each other, - they are just interested in what those 2 people are doing in the bedroom.

I won't speak for others, but as for me, you are incorrect.

 

[jimmiej]

Not when the original Greek version of the bible is unclear on the word "homosexual". It is thought the original word was the Greek word for pedophile and down through the ages and translations, homosexual was inserted.

Does this sound like it's talking about pedophilia?

Romans I

God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

 

[eclectics]

1) I was talking about an "act", not a group of people. The Bible is clear that God loves EVERYONE, but He WILL NOT tolerate our sin.

2) The Bible says God hates divorce. IA with you there. As far as your 50%, remember we're talking about Christians, not the general public.

3) According to your logic, we really don't know what to believe about the Bible. What parts do we take literal and vice versa? Therefore, I choose to believe EXACTLY what it says. How else can we use it as a guide in our lives?

But if I believe there was a misinterpretation of the words or phrases, then being a Homosexual isn't a sin as far as I'm concerned. And imho, one can use the Bible as a guide in one's life without being obsessed with following it literally down to the letter and placement of a comma. But, I repeat, I really don't want to debate this again because neither one of us is going to change the view of the other and basically we are just using up Pete's bandwidth. As Cardaway so rightly put it, we have been down this road many times before.

 

[VanBrujah]

1) I was talking about an "act", not a group of people. The Bible is clear that God loves EVERYONE, but He WILL NOT tolerate our sin.

Since I don't believe in your god, I guess he's going to have to tolerate my sin. Tough luck for him, I guess.

2) The Bible says God hates divorce. IA with you there. As far as your 50%, remember we're talking about Christians, not the general public.

The bible says lots of things. I could go on and on with the whole list - Putting someone to death for working on the sabbath, selling people into slavery, etc... You people never seem to be able to answer any questions about all that stuff, so I won't waste my time. You always have the answers about gay people though. Interesting.

3) According to your logic, we really don't know what to believe about the Bible. What parts do we take literal and vice versa? Therefore, I choose to believe EXACTLY what it says. How else can we use it as a guide in our lives?

Feel free to use the bible as a guide for YOUR life. What I don't understand is why you people feel like you need to use YOUR bible as a guide to OUR lives.

I use mine to help prop up one end of the couch - the leg is broken. It makes a nice coaster, too.


If you guys are so sure that homosexuality is a choice, what are you so afraid of? Certainly such devout, bible believing christians would never CHOOSE to be gay, right? So what's the big deal? Don't be gay, die, go to heaven and live among all the other straights for all eternity - isn't that exactly what you people want?

 

[cardaway]

As far as your 50%, remember we're talking about Christians, not the general public.

Did I really just read that? So the numbers would be less if they counted... what?