I feel so poor...

[Ms Bibbidi]

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[barkley]

But fixed incomes, pensions, wages and salaries cannot keep up.

totally agree however i find it fascinating that while i could go years without a raise in my government unionized job and saw some in the same classification agree to salary reductions in order to stave off massive layoffs during the last recession our pensions are guaranteed to receive at least modest yearly increases tied to a cost of living formula. it makes me wonder if that is a contributing factor in recent months wherein the government entity i formerly worked for is processing record breaking numbers of retirements. i can't help but believe that between the prospect of having to return to offices with record high gas prices combined with memories of declining incomes during recessionary periods isn't making that fixed pension w/a guaranteed yearly raise and greatly decreased expenditures on work related expenses much more attractive.

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

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[North of Mouse]

There aren‘t many line items in my budget that haven‘t increased over the last two years. On paper our incomes are much higher than when we started going to Disney almost 15 years ago, but it feels like it’s less affordable now. I guess our priorities have changed, but the prices have gone crazy too.

We just returned last month and we had a nice time. But when I put it in perspective, we spent two weeks of grocery budget for one dinner at O‘Hana for three adults. The food costs are outrageous, the hotel costs are bananas.. I just can’t justify it anymore. I’m glad we got that last trip in with DS18 before he goes off to University in the Fall, but Disney is no longer a yearly destination for us.

We feel the same. We want to see Epcot Flower and Garden one more time after most renovations are done, then that will be it for us (our April '20 trip was cancelled).
We started going to WDW right after MK opened, with our children, and the last several years with AP's 1-3 times every year or two, but that's over since closures, sky high prices with less to show for it, changes, changes, changes - none for the better in our opinions. It was hard to change, but now other destinations are winning our hearts, and we are nearly over Disney.

 

[DCLMP]

You are right about the amount of debt. I have never understood why they thought letting the US national debt get that high was okay. Japan and the European Central Bank did the same. It baffles me. I don't understand how drowning in debt is okay. It is not okay. It makes us week. Now, that is what makes me feel poor.

Maybe part of what is happening is "monetizing the debt." Higher inflation makes past debt amounts diminish by comparison. But fixed incomes, pensions, wages and salaries cannot keep up.

Europe will collapse before us. You cannot have negative interest rates for a decade. There actually worse off the we are. Now there trying to fragment the debt or whatever they call it. If capital flows into the usd and it spikes you’ll have sovereign debt crisis. There is really no way out that I can see. The 10 year made a huge spike on monday. Then it 10 year yield dropped by 20 points in a day that’s the Fed buying up debt trying to stabilize the debt market…which of course is inflationary. The debt market collapses and the house of cards falls. I’m not sure how much longer they can hold it together.

 

[ThistleMae]

My son keeps telling me I'm in the worst position regarding the economy due to being on a fixed income. True in some ways; however, I can still pay my bills and go on vacation. This is only because I live with my daughter and her family in a mother-in-law apartment. So while I don't feel poor, it's only because I can pay all my bills, get groceries and go to Disney. I believe Sharing living expenses is going to be the future for our young and old people with rising inflation and the cost of buying a home. The real estate market is selling houses that are way over priced and sellers are getting those prices but then it's hard to buy something else because they are getting snapped up almost immediately. I just don't understand what's happening!

 

[DCLMP]

My son keeps telling me I'm in the worst position regarding the economy due to being on a fixed income. True in some ways; however, I can still pay my bills and go on vacation. This is only because I live with my daughter and her family in a mother-in-law apartment. So while I don't feel poor, it's only because I can pay all my bills, get groceries and go to Disney. I believe Sharing living expenses is going to be the future for our young and old people with rising inflation and the cost of buying a home. The real estate market is selling houses that are way over priced and sellers are getting those prices but then it's hard to buy something else because they are getting snapped up almost immediately. I just don't understand what's happening!

The real estate market will slow. Mortgage rates are rising. Things are going to look a lot different a year from now than they do now, but I do think you're right about families living together. That is the norm in a lot of second and third-world countries. I work with a lot of under 25s and many of them live with their parents despite making decent incomes. I have very young adult children and I don't see them moving out anytime soon.

 

[Gr8t Fan]

When is the last time a family of 5 with an income below $50K could afford much of a vacation to any sort of destination like Disney? I could barely afford to go anywhere myself when I was making $41K between basic necessities, student loans, health insurance, taxes, etc, can't even imagine with a child or more than that. I'm talking long before the pandemic.

Although I'd point out that with your example you're using things that your average guest did not have such as the YES program.

I would never debate the rising costs of Disney and that was never my point not did I touch on costs. However, when someone says today now that they feel poor because they aren't able to go on their 5 to 14 day trip like they have for the last 12 years stands to reason I can point out that the destination is less of the point but rather that they could even do that to begin with. Pick other destinations out there and you'll probably find the same thing for many people over the years (not just talking about the pandemic and the inflation and gas prices just over the years).

Privilege by the way wasn't what I was going for.

We consistently did it year after year as a family of 5 and then a family of 6 (making just about $50-$55K) beginning in 2001 until our APs expired in 2019 and the cost went up so much that we could no longer justify it. We usually drove, used YES tickets or bought non-expiring tickets from UCT, took advantage of free dining, bought discount Disney gift cards at Target, used reward points, etc. Almost all of those discounts have been eliminated.

We can afford to go now (even with the inflated prices for everything), but we no longer see the value in going, so we choose to go to other places.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

We consistently did it year after year as a family of 5 and then a family of 6 (making just about $50-$55K) beginning in 2001 until our APs expired in 2019 and the cost went up so much that we could no longer justify it. We usually drove, used YES tickets or bought non-expiring tickets from UCT, took advantage of free dining, bought discount Disney gift cards at Target, used reward points, etc. Almost all of those discounts have been eliminated.

We can afford to go now (even with the inflated prices for everything), but we no longer see the value in going, so we choose to go to other places.

2001 is 21 years ago. I was making $5.55 an hour in 2006/7 and while not making bank, and not having oodles of opportunity it was at least doable. Lot of things have changed over the years. Keeping an AP going for discounts, having non-expiring tickets, etc all of that is not what I'm talking about. What I was referring to is a family especially one of 5 (and in your case 6) going on a vacation like Disney with a $50K income. All of what y'all keep mentioning is all these discounts and other ways you did it but that's not what your average family was doing or was able to do and it's from long enough time that quite frankly and no disrespect meant is irrelevant. I can't believe I'm even debating this point but it's at extreme odds with so many discussions where people talk about costs and incomes of family. The comment of "when is the last time" was not meant for people to come out of the woodwork and say "well......" no disrespect meant but it's a generalized comment about income, number of people in the household and means of going on vacation in general to destinations like Disney.

Looking at stats for my metro (split between two states) for HUD for 2021 (most recent stats) a family of 5 making $74,850 is low income. In 2014 (the year the poster mentioned their income went above $50K) for my metro at that time for a family of 5 making $60,400 was low income. I can't find the stats for 2008 for my individual metro but for my state a family of 5 making $47,750 was low income and the state next to me was $49,250 was low income.

I have no doubts that low income families travel (as they should be able to) I have no doubt that some low income families go to Disney or places similar. What I am also certain of is that it is not realistic unfortunately for the bulk of low income families and that has stayed the same over the years although in the past it tended to be your money went further. As for you last comment was not questioning that part although I think many agree value to cost ratio is off although that's been the case before the pandemic on these Boards. In any case like I said later on in comments I appreciate the conversation but moving on in topics

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

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[MrsPete]

Multiple thoughts bounced off multiple posts:

- I understand where you're coming from, OP. I'm spending more for gas, groceries, etc. -- and I'm buying the same amount or less. It's hard not to feel "poor" in this situation.
- I totally agree that people with low incomes /people who were already living pretty close to the bone are much worse off right now than those of us who are deciding whether we should spend the money on a vacation. However, I'm not quick to cry ”privilege” -- I was a dirt-poor kid /certainly not born on third base, and I worked my butt off to live a better life. I'm not saying I didn't have some luck here and there, but the majority of my success has been due to hard work and good choices.
- As I said, I have been poor. Really poor, and I am not insulted or demeaned by the OP's comment.
- I agree about managing expectations right now.
- I can remember the inflation in the 70s, but I was a kid. I agree that didn't "right itself" overnight, and this situation won't either.
- Housing is going to be a big problem in the near future. I don't see how housing can keep going up-up-up; this bubble's going to burst, and some people are going to find themselves in trouble. I do agree that multi-generational families may become "average" again -- and not just in 3rd world countries. I grew up in a multi-generational household, and it was a bonus for us kids.

 

[DCLMP]

Multiple thoughts bounced off multiple posts:

- I understand where you're coming from, OP. I'm spending more for gas, groceries, etc. -- and I'm buying the same amount or less. It's hard not to feel "poor" in this situation.
- I totally agree that people with low incomes /people who were already living pretty close to the bone are much worse off right now than those of us who are deciding whether we should spend the money on a vacation. However, I'm not quick to cry ”privilege” -- I was a dirt-poor kid /certainly not born on third base, and I worked my butt off to live a better life. I'm not saying I didn't have some luck here and there, but the majority of my success has been due to hard work and good choices.
- As I said, I have been poor. Really poor, and I am not insulted or demeaned by the OP's comment.
- I agree about managing expectations right now.
- I can remember the inflation in the 70s, but I was a kid. I agree that didn't "right itself" overnight, and this situation won't either.
- Housing is going to be a big problem in the near future. I don't see how housing can keep going up-up-up; this bubble's going to burst, and some people are going to find themselves in trouble. I do agree that multi-generational families may become "average" again -- and not just in 3rd world countries. I grew up in a multi-generational household, and it was a bonus for us kids.

We're in a completely different situation than the '70s...different than any time in history. The housing situation is different than 2008. It always amazes me that people didn't see that one coming.

This time around people bought houses they actually could afford or at least qualified for in a legitimate way, but aren't going to be able to afford when everything else in their life is going up or they lose their job. It will be interesting to see if people walk away from their houses as they did in 2008 because they are underwater. I have friends and coworkers that could afford the mortgage, but walked away.... boy do they regret that. It's funny all the states like Fl, AZ , GA, NV that were at the center of the housing crisis have recovered and then some.

 

[DCLMP]

To get this back on topic....some economists are predicting massive deflation on products we don't need for survival. It makes sense. I don't know how much this will affect travel because of the operating costs, but hopefully, we see some discounts at Disney that will make it somewhat more affordable.

 

[QueenIsabella]

Interesting.
What that actually means is EVERYBODY is privileged in some way. Whether your “special” rights and advantages come from your job, your education, or the help you get from your gov’t.

And please don’t speak for those of us who have been poor. Not all of us feel that what the OP said is in poor taste.

Exactly! I grew up very lower middle-class. Sometimes, when Dad was out of work, we were "food stamps poor", if you will. We were always struggling. Not complaining--I know people have had worse. Meanwhile, my DH grew up in a very rich suburb of Boston. He used to complain about "being poor". His definition of poor was much different from mine! For me, being poor meant not enough food to eat, in danger of losing the house, that sort of thing. But for DH, compared to his classmates, he was "poor"--most of them got cars for their 16th birthday--he got one when he turned 21. Most of them went on lavish vacations for both Feb. and April break--he went on only one (either skiing in the Rockies, or renting a sailboat in the Caribbean). The heart bleeds! When we first started dating (in college), I had a tough time adjusting to the level of wealth that he was accustomed to. I was the scholarship kid with a ton of student loans--his neighborhood had houses with ballrooms.

 

[sarah4770]

Back to the original post… I feel * worried*. Just don’t know what the future holds as far as the economy. We had a trip planned for September, but now I am second guessing that. Looking at Disney menus, food costs, ticket costs, airfare costs. And then just not knowing how inflation will go into the coming winter. Right now it doesn’t feel wise to go.

 

[Twilghtsprkle]

We just got back. We overall didn’t spend as much but that’s because we changed some of what we did. We have DVC and got a 1 bedroom. We usually have a couple dinners out but this time all dinners were cooked in room. Breakfast was always in room. I had a few sit down lunches booked but after ILL and LL return times were having us walk all over the parks I canceled 2 and we had QS instead.

 

[DCLMP]

Back to the original post… I feel * worried*. Just don’t know what the future holds as far as the economy. We had a trip planned for September, but now I am second guessing that. Looking at Disney menus, food costs, ticket costs, airfare costs. And then just not knowing how inflation will go into the coming winter. Right now it doesn’t feel wise to go.

That’s understandable. I think a lot of people will start pulling back. Consumer confidence is very low. It’s hard to feel confident when all your assets are declining in value.

Some macro economist are predicting deflation of discretionary items which would make sense if we didn’t have supply issues. I have a hard time seeing energy and food costs decreasing. It’s possible we could see hotel prices drop. I doubt will see a decrease in airfare. They’ll just decrease flights.

We’re still traveling this Summer, but we don’t have to worry about a job losses in a recession..I hope.

 

[ThistleMae]

We just got back. We overall didn’t spend as much but that’s because we changed some of what we did. We have DVC and got a 1 bedroom. We usually have a couple dinners out but this time all dinners were cooked in room. Breakfast was always in room. I had a few sit down lunches booked but after ILL and LL return times were having us walk all over the parks I canceled 2 and we had QS instead.

Yeah, we have been altering the way we tour for a few years now and this upcoming trip is no exception. We gave up on sit down meals two years ago. We only do counter service and we bring lots of snacks with us. We are also going to do a grocery order this time as well. It's definitely going to cost more for this trip for sure. We have had to think about other ways to cut back at home and are definitely thinking about heating fuel costs. I definitely am more mindful of driving. I consolidate my trips these days rather than running out to the store several times a week. I'm not offended by what the OP said. It's a feeling, and it's how she and some of us here feel.

 

[sarah4770]

Heating oil here went from $3 to $6 dollars a gallon in just a matter of months. So if you use 100 gallons a month in winter, it adds up. And we don’t know how it’s going to be come fall. plus the gas and the food. & flight & rental car. Really, who couldn’t keep that in consideration?

 

[Ms Bibbidi]

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