I am so sorry that this woman is even being given air time

[Grumpy3]

There are so many vote yes on 102 on TV, I wish someone would follow up with, "It's already illegal in AZ". One man and one woman because that's the "Christian way". I am not a Christian and am so sick of it being shoved in my face.


Just have to comment here.

1) This country was founded on Christian values; if you don't believe me read our founding documents; it's very clear.

2) Part of the problem is we are mixing church and state. A marriage traditionally was a religeous function but somewhere along the way they figured out that they could tax it and that's where it got mixed up.

3) None of the candidates are the correct people to lead our country. Both parties have spent much of this campaign spreading lies. Their parties are full of corrupt politicians. If you or I ran our business or personal lives the way they do we would be in jail.

They both say they want to help yet they have wasted hundreds of millions of dollars campaiging; money that could have been spent feeding the poor, or buying medicine for them.

 

[OrlandoMike]

I know God is mentioned quite a few times in our founding documents, but what proof do you have that it is the "Christian" God these documents refer to? Just curious, as I don't recall seeing the name Jesus anywhere in any of our founding documents......

 

[wallyb]

They both say they want to help yet they have wasted hundreds of millions of dollars campaiging; money that could have been spent feeding the poor, or buying medicine for them.

Or funding "W's War on TERROR!"

 

[Grumpy3]

Of the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence, nearly half (24) held seminary or Bible school degrees.

John Adams the 2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson the 3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence "I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

John Hancock the 1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence
"Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us."
--History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Roger Sherman, Signer of the Declaration of Independence and United States Constitution
"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him. That God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, so as thereby he is not the author or approver of sin. That he creates all things, and preserves and governs all creatures and all their actions, in a manner perfectly consistent with the freedom of will in moral agents, and the usefulness of means. That he made man at first perfectly holy, that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever.

I believe that God having elected some of mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer: also by his special grace and spirit, to regenerate, sanctify and enable to persevere in holiness, all who shall be saved; and to procure in consequence of their repentance and faith in himself their justification by virtue of his atonement as the only meritorious cause.

I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, joined by the bond of the covenant.

I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment."
--The Life of Roger Sherman, pp. 272-273.

Is that enough???

 

[mickeyfan1]

Actually, those are not government documents. And while those men felt that "Christianity" was important to them in those times, was there a reason that they did not include anything about it in the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence? I know that when the original settlers came here, a lot of them came to escape religious persecution. To me, the way the "Christian Right" is trying to influence so much here is nothing more than religious persecution. If you don't follow the teaching of the bible, you are going to burn in hell for all eternity, etc. I am not swayed today, I will not be swayed in the future. Religion holds no place in government and the more the right says it does, the more I will vote against them.

 

[wallyb]

Is that enough???

It certainly is!
Feel better now?
Or should we all do a rousing version of God Bless America?

 

[Grumpy3]

No kidding, they are quotes from the men that created and supported the founding documents of this country.

No offense but I could care less about what your beliefs are, I'm merely responding to the question posed.

 

[Grumpy3]

It certainly is!
Feel better now?
Or should we all do a rousing version of God Bless America?

Do I feel better, yes I always feel better when I can educate the opinionated with facts!

 

[wallyb]

Do I feel better, yes I always feel better when I can educate the opinionated with facts!

Well your work is done here then.
Good job.
Gold star for you.

 

[Grumpy3]

Thanks can I cash that gold star in for a Fast Pass?

Sorry if the facts get in the way of opinions.

 

[wallyb]

Thanks can I cash that gold star in for a Fast Pass?

Sorry if the facts get in the way of opinions.

No problem - not at all.
I just don't see the "Facts" the same way as you -
and I'm guess without even wasting my breath you won't see my side either.

Another day in the good old USA!

Sorry gold star made in china for Walmart - no redeemable value.

 

[OrlandoMike]

Is that enough???

Actually no, it's not nearly enough. Letters from one founding father to another have absolutely no impact on our Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, or any other legal document that this country holds dear.

But I did find this nifty quote from our Constitution......


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

And I'm pretty sure that includes Christianity....

 

[Grumpy3]

That's one point we can agree on!

Even though I haven't shared my opinion, I'm always open to somone else's point of view, even if I don't agree; that's the great thing about these boards we can both be right/wrong and respectfully disagree!

 

[Grumpy3]

Actually no, it's not nearly enough. Letters from one founding father to another have absolutely no impact on our Constitution, Bill of Rights, Declaration of Independence, or any other legal document that this country holds dear.

But I did find this nifty quote from our Constitution......


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

And I'm pretty sure that includes Christianity....

Just for the sake of debate, what God would Christian men be refering to in these documents? Or do you think that they did not express their beliefs in these documents?

 

[OrlandoMike]

Just for the sake of debate, what God would Christian men be refering to in these documents? Or do you think that they did not express their beliefs in these documents?

So God belongs to Christians and Christians alone?

I'd better let my Jewish, Muslim, and friends of other faiths know about this!

 

[Grumpy3]

So God belongs to Christians and Christians alone?

I'd better let my Jewish, Muslim, and friends of other faiths know about this!

Mike, you're making this way too easy, I never said anything about government establishing an official religion and I never said that God only belongs to Christians, you did.
I simply provided factual documentation that the founding fathers were Christians, they were passionate enough about their beliefs to write them down in the founding documents and it is these references to God written by these Christian men that refer to the Christian God. If the founding documents were written by Bhudists, Muslims, etc., then I would agree that they weren't refering to the Christian God!
It's very simple, wether you are a Christian, Islamic, Hindu, agnostic, or atheist it doesn't matter to me and it doesn't affect the fact that these men were Christians and by including their beliefs in these documents our country was founded on Christian values.

 

[mickeyfan1]

The letters you quoted are not founding documents. LEtters between these men are historically important, but the Declaration and the Constitution are the founding documents.

 

[Grumpy3]

Once again I didn't say they were founding documents. Those documents prove that these men were Christians, therefore logic would dictate that any reference in the founding documents to God would be the Christian God that they beleived in!

 

[DVC~OKW~96]

Religion encompasses more than the sole instance of Christianity. G-d encompasses more than the theology of Christianity.

The founders of this country did not use the term Christianity. That tells us that they were being as inclusive as they could possibly be, and not being xenophobic.

Letters that they wrote are potential indicators of their personal beliefs, but they are not indicators of unwritten intent of the Consitution.

Now, if you would care to discuss the "politics are personal" aspects of feminist theory, step right up. But that won't change what is NOT there; namely the specification that the words religion and G-d mean only Christianity.

Identification of fact from opinion is a difficult thing, but it can be done.

 

[Grumpy3]

Religion encompasses more than the sole instance of Christianity. G-d encompasses more than the theology of Christianity.

The founders of this country did not use the term Christianity. That tells us that they were being as inclusive as they could possibly be, and not being xenophobic.
No it doesn't. Christians say they beleive in God they don't say I believe in Christianity when they are refering to what they believe to is their supreme being
Letters that they wrote are potential indicators of their personal beliefs, but they are not indicators of unwritten intent of the Consitution.
Potential indicators? You are kidding, right?
Now, if you would care to discuss the "politics are personal" aspects of feminist theory, step right up. But that won't change what is NOT there; namely the specification that the words religion and G-d mean only Christianity.
Is the O broken on your keyboard?

Identification of fact from opinion is a difficult thing, but it can be done.

Well it takes an open mind