How would you feel? Insp. by PTA and books

[disney junky]

This thread is inspired by the PTA book thread. Many people seem to be vehemently opposed to being told what to do by what some term as an institution. In this case, the institution is the PTA (some suggest a front for the school) and a required book to be read and workbook to be completed over the summer. I didn't want to hijack that thread so I thought I'd start a new one for this discussion.
When my children wanted to get their driver's licenses, they had to take a written test, (actually a computerized written test) at which time they got their learner's permit. After six months, they could take their driver's licensing test-on the road. However, during that six months, they were required to drive 50 hours with an experienced driver. There was a log to be kept with time and signatures by the experienced driver. It was a fairly new law, I heard some grumblings mostly from the kids who were having to wait six months to drive alone, but it never occurred to me that this was an intrusion by the government into my personal affairs. In fact, the log was never handed over to the state. We were all on the honor system. It's just the way it was.
Now when I read so many posters who seem to feel that schools (institutions) have no right to have certain expectations of students, I think along these lines. If we really want something bad enough, like a driver's license, we jump through the hoops they make us. But some here seem to be unwilling to apply the same attitude to education. If you want to get ahead, it doesn't just happen. You have to work for it and sometimes that means doing things that are unpleasant and inconvenient.
I look forward to reading some responses. Often I think I am in a real minority here.

 

[golfgal]

Same driver ed set up in our state and I think it is great. I don't see it as an intrusion in my life at all, I see it as a way to properly train new drivers. When I got my license I took my classroom in November, behind the wheel right after that finishing in Mid December and got my drivers license over Christmas break that year. I know most of my friends did the same and I know I drove a LOT more then most of them and looking back, I could have used a lot more practice. I was/am a pretty good driver, but I certainly didn't have a lot of experience with weird situations.

I can't imagine what the world/our country would be like if school, government, parents whom ever didn't have expectations for behavior for our children and people in general. Anarchy comes to mind.

 

[MAKmom]

I think alot of people have a problem with change. The knee jerk reaction is to panic or get angry.

Some parents have speacial needs children & 1 more thing on your plate makes you feel like its going to break. The feelings are not always the reality.

We are in the Garnet Valley School District its a great place to be. Summer reading has always been a fact of life. This year they started PRINCIPLE's home work packets in math for your child weak areas. Voluntary but next year who knows.

 

[In a hurry]

Well, I (usually) work for the school system, and I am a parent so my opinion must have merit , so here goes.

I think there are some serious flaws in the institiution of education, and so am willing both as a parent and teacher to question the decisions made by that institution.

In the end I want my child, and the children that I teach to acquire a love of learning, as well as the basic skills necessary to procede in life. Sure a lot of learning is by the book, memorization, skills acquisition, but it can also be storytelling (history) nature walks (science) rhythm, art and excercise.

I think that there are some kids that thrive on a nice new pretty workbook, but just as many that that would benefit more from taking a walk, and coming home and looking up wooly bear catepillars.

That being said, we all jump through the hoops all of our lives. And any kid in the school system will learn to do the same. It is the hows and whens that are occasionally at issue.

 

[Tigger&Belle]

I'm a little confused as to what the question is.

There has to be a way to measure to make sure that the kids have the required driving hours. The reality is that the kids don't log each and every time they go out driving and they basically make a lot of it up. At least that's what my DD did, but it didn't bother me in the least, because we required her to drive for a whole year before attempting to get her license (the law in MD at the time was only 4 months) and she had probably twice the 40 required hours, so I didn't care the the actual times and dates were not the real times and dates since she was required by us to do way more than required.

I suppose that it doesn't really matter what the schools require as far as reading, either, because I do limit the amount of time my kids watch tv and play video games in summer. I make sure that they go outside and play and that they pick up books. The school reading programs help in that it's someone else that my kids have to answer to (they know that they have a packet to turn in at the beginning of school, so they have to actually complete books).

I don't have a problem with them reading, doing some math problems, etc. I do think that they need to have time every day to be a kid, hang around, go to the pool, go to camp, etc, etc. They also have chores to do, which they'd prefer not to do.

 

[Just2554]

You know, as far as the school thing goes, I think that a school has every right to require a student to pick up a book and read it over their three month summer break. Regardless of President Bush's "No Child Left Behind Law" (which I really don't want to drag into this thread, because it's not my point), the truth of the matter is that students' grades and the amount they are learning is seriously lacking. I just graduated high school last year and lemme tell you...that place required nothing of us as students. Now I worked hard, so it didn't affect me, but I see alot of students now almost finished with their freshman year of college who have really suffered. They just don't have the skills or habits they need. Btw, we were always required to read 3 books a summer at my school (junior year, we were assigned Anna Karenina plus two others!) and then we took tests on all 3 as soon as we went back. So basically, either you read them or you didn't and if you didn't, your first quarter average really suffered because if you failed those tests, you pretty much failed english.

I also think having to drive for 6 months/50 hours after you get your permit when you turn 16 is a GOOD thing. Most teenagers are so excited to jump behind the wheel of a car and cruise around with their friends that if they didn't practice first, the accident & injury rate would be alot higher than it is. I had a friend in high school whose mother didn't make her do the 50 hours of driving and she crashed 3 cars in a year in a half; she was and still is a terrible driver.

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't see some institutions as "forcing" us to do things. The driving law is for our safety. The summer reading is meant to help educate our children. I don't see how we're being forced into something if it's benefitting our safety or teaching us responsibility, you know? Everything has boundaries, but I just don't see these things as bad.

So I guess you could say I agree with you.

 

[C.Ann]

Well, I (usually) work for the school system, and I am a parent so my opinion must have merit , so here goes.

I think there are some serious flaws in the institiution of education, and so am willing both as a parent and teacher to question the decisions made by that institution.

In the end I want my child, and the children that I teach to acquire a love of learning, as well as the basic skills necessary to procede in life. Sure a lot of learning is by the book, memorization, skills acquisition, but it can also be storytelling (history) nature walks (science) rhythm, art and excercise.

I think that there are some kids that thrive on a nice new pretty workbook, but just as many that that would benefit more from taking a walk, and coming home and looking up wooly bear catepillars.

That being said, we all jump through the hoops all of our lives. And any kid in the school system will learn to do the same. It is the hows and whens that are occasionally at issue.

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My thoughts exactly.. I'm all for learning - however, all of "life" can not be experienced solely through the pages of a book..

Can you learn how to play a guitar by reading a book, but never picking up a guitar?

Can you learn how to bake a cake simply by reading a recipe, but never baking the cake?

Can you learn how to draw by reading a book, but never picking up a pencil and sitting down with a piece of paper?

Sometimes "experiences" are truly the best teacher..

 

[DaisyD]

I'm all for the extra hours kids need for driving. It is a huge safety issue and one that should have been instituted years ago. A totally different thing then making a kid read a book in the summer though!

 

[caitycaity]

i am not a parent, so my opinion doesn't have any merit but my parents raised me to know that there are times in life where we just have to suck it up and do things we don't like!

so that is pretty much my reaction to summer reading. life sucks and then you die. (just kidding, but my mom used to say that to me when i would get whiny about doing something i didn't want to, LOL)

 

[andromedaslove]

There really is a huge difference between a child getting a drivers license where they have the ability to kill people with their vehicles and them reading a book while on vacation, so let's keep this in perspective.

Well, as I posted in the other thread I completely disagree with schools sending home a book list and requiring kids to read, do reports, work sheets, etc while on summer vacation. First, I had custody of my cousin between the ages of 10 and 14. I had never seen so much homework in my life. By the time he got out of school at 4, did his homework, had dinner and a bath, it was literally time for him to go to bed. He usually had between 2-4 hours of homework a night. He always had homework over the weekends, or projects that had to be done. He hardly had time to have any friends. I kept trying to convince him that once he got into high school it would be easier because at least then he would get out of school at 1:30. Which, no surprise now that he is in high school his grades have come up significantly and he still has time to be a kid.

I am tired of the schools drowing the kids in work, all that succeeds in doing is frustrating the mess outta them. They have work all week, on the weekends, over Spring and Christmas break, and now they wanna add work over Summer? This is just a bit ridiculous. Why on God's green earth do they need to do this much work. I didn't have to as a child, and there are plenty of people that I went to school with that went on to be very successful people.

 

[AprilShowers]

Devil's advocate here:
I don't think you can actually compare the two:
Somebody might DIE if proper driver's training is not administered.
NOBODY will die if someone's young son doesn't do the required summer reading.
That being said, I think the big beef here is that someone ELSE gets to pick WHICH book is being read, and then there is homework to do after said book is read.
I think people would be MUCH more cooperative if there was a book list, and a fun, summer type of project to do after the book is read. I can't think of anything right now, but there HAS to be something fun, interesting and educational to do in the summer that DOESN'T require stacks of worksheets and tons of writing.
I think letting the children choose a book that interests them and then finding something fun to coordinate with that book and using pictures, drawings or other fun things, the child could communicate the meaning of the book to the teacher. Doing it this way, most kids don't even realize they are doing homework, but a fun summer project.

 

[pearlieq]

There are a couple of big differences:

1.) Getting a drivers license is voluntary. Schooling is compulsory, and public school is the only viable option for a lot of people, not to mention a service for which they pay a great deal of money.

2.) The summer reading assignment was outside the scope of the school's function an authority. While school is in session, they can assign work and the child can be reasonably expected to complete it. When school is NOT in session, they don't get to dictate the child's actions or responsibilites. To parallel the driving idea, what if the state started requiring a blood test to screen for STDs before they'd issue a drivers license? That would be an imposition and completely outside the scope of what they do, and you bet it would generate an uproar!

Apples and oranges, in my book.

 

[golfgal]

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My thoughts exactly.. I'm all for learning - however, all of "life" can not be experienced solely through the pages of a book..

Can you learn how to play a guitar by reading a book, but never picking up a guitar?

Can you learn how to bake a cake simply by reading a recipe, but never baking the cake?

Can you learn how to draw by reading a book, but never picking up a pencil and sitting down with a piece of paper?

Sometimes "experiences" are truly the best teacher..

I am still trying to figure out how having assigned reading over the summer prevents a child from doing all of this AND do the reading assignment. My kids have always done "homework" over the summer at my insistence yet they have managed to learn to golf, play soccer, ride bikes, play with friends, go to the swimming pool, go to the state park and catch frogs, travel, etc. etc etc. They also read, a lot, because they like to. My oldest read 12 books in January/February to qualify for a prize at school (all the Maude Heart Lovelace books out for the year).

 

[inaminute]

Schools certainly do have the right to set expectations for children. I have absolutely no problem with a school district creating and mandating programs for children--even over the summer. It's their job.

However, we're talking about a social organization mandating what children will do over the course of a summer. It's not their business.

You're comparison to driving is not logical. Driving is not a mandatory activity. One can choose whether they want to take part. One can determine when they want to participate, as long as they reach the minimum requirements. Even when learning to drive, one has the option of determining the timeframe in which they are going to achieve that task.

That is not the case in the PTA thread.

As I understand it, a social organization (the PTA) is now attempting to determine the curriculum and assigning mandatory projects to be completed in a specific period of time--with no apparent regard for special needs. That is not acceptable. Schools recognize special needs and make adjustments as necessary. I would expect the same of the PTA.

 

[Arielle22]

If you want to get ahead, it doesn't just happen. You have to work for it and sometimes that means doing things that are unpleasant and inconvenient.
I look forward to reading some responses. Often I think I am in a real minority here.

Disney junky, I am a Human Resources Mgr and I have this problem with a lot of my younger employees. They want more money but don't want to work extra to get it. Or they didn't hit the necessary level to get a bonus but they want it since they tried hard.

a few weeks ago an employee emailed me stating she deserved a raise. The employee is a 17 yr old high school jr. She is making $10.25 for part time work. She went on at length on how she was a good employee and should get a $1 per hr raise since she had only 1 raise in the 4 years she has worked for me. We declined a raise as her hourly rate is near the top of her category. The next day (before she got my response) she came in for her check and told me she couldn't work the next week since she was in a play at school. Now that doesn't strike me as a particularly devoted employee. I don't think she should have taken the play knowing she had work responsibilities. Today she was back in my office that she needed another 2 days off to view colleges. I realize viewing colleges is important but I find it funny that her father (who works for me as a salesperson) put in his time off request to take her to view colleges about 3 weeks ago (she is going next week) but she didn't bother to tell me until now.

I have tried to instill in my dds that in order to make it in the world you have to work hard and sometimes that means doing things you don't want to do. I tell them that their dad and I don't get up thrilled every morning to go to work but that is what is required to have the lifestyle we (and they) enjoy.

When I read some of the school threads I get the feeling that the issue isn't worth the effort the poster (on other threads not this one) is putting into it.

 

[tw1nsmom]

I really think you're talking about two very different things.

As to the PTA reading assignment, I didn't post on the other thread, but I wouldn't have been happy either. The thing that would have bothered me the most is that it's coming from the PTA. It was not a direct assignment from the school, but something that a small group of parents thought up.

Another thing that bothers me about major summer assignments is that kids have no teacher guidance if they run into difficulties. Not every child has an involved parent who is willing or even capable of helping them with their work. What if a child has trouble understanding the vocabulary of the book? What if they just don't get the point and can't do the workbook? Who is going to steer them in the right direction? Yes, everyone posting to this thread and many others would be able and willing to help their children. But not all children have that.

I have no problem with reading lists. However, with reading lists each grade can have books of varying degrees of difficulty listed. This allows all the children to participate as they are able.

 

[Crankyshank]

I don't think the PTA should be assigning school work. That's the job of the school and/or the school board. It's not fair to the students, it takes away from the authority of the school, and it's not fair to expect the teacher to grade assignments they didn't assign.

I do think a lot of kids are going to be in for a rude awakening come college time and come the time when they are out in the "real world" because they're going to have to suck it up and do things they don't want to do. As tedious and unfair as it is, it's part of life and the quicker they get used to it the better. It's only one book and a project after all - not a dissertation on 19th century literature.

 

[andromedaslove]

Yeah, but in college if they decide not to attend the summer semester the college won't assign work for them to do and turn in when they return!!

 

[disney junky]

The only similarity between these two things, a driver's license and the summer book, is that both are being "required" by a third party. (And I do agree that it seem odd that the PTA is the governing body in this instance) I never intended for those two things to be even mildly comparable. I was simply pointing out that there are times when we are told what we have to do. I never minded the 50 hours. I rather enjoyed them. The state's purpose is to lower the number of fatalities for young drivers. The school's or PTA's purpose in this case is noble. They are providing students with books and workbooks to work through over the summer. Not life or death. But most of the arguments against it are based on infringing on parental control, summer vacation, institutional control, not the right book, etc. My point on this thread has more to do with this. If we think something is important, we are less likely to complain about what it takes to get it. To kids and parents, a license is imperative. But to others, a book and workbook is infringing on personal rights. I can trace my love of reading to one book. Maybe this will be the book that opens that world to the child. And all the thanks would be due the PTA, for having the wisdom to provide books for the student rather than funding TV's for every classroom or expanding the playground. There's nothing wrong with those things, but shouldn't their primary focus be helping the school do its job in educating the students?

 

[C.Ann]

I am still trying to figure out how having assigned reading over the summer prevents a child from doing all of this AND do the reading assignment. My kids have always done "homework" over the summer at my insistence yet they have managed to learn to golf, play soccer, ride bikes, play with friends, go to the swimming pool, go to the state park and catch frogs, travel, etc. etc etc. They also read, a lot, because they like to. My oldest read 12 books in January/February to qualify for a prize at school (all the Maude Heart Lovelace books out for the year).

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Because I don't see the need for it "in addition to" when the time could be better spent doing hands-on things that there never seems to be enough time to do throughout the traditional school year.. I find it very, very, VERY hard to believe that a child would go through an entire summer without reading anything because hands-on experiences are usually what creates the spark that makes a child want to learn more about a subject and it's at that point that they will often turn to a book..

My granddaughter is a perfect example.. She's an only child and therefore spends the majority of her time with adults.. When she entered Kindergarten the teacher was amazed by the vast knowledge she had in a wide range of topics.. She acquired that knowledge by "experiencing" things, developing an interest in them and then asking the adults around her to find books that she could read on those topics - or have read to her if they were beyond her reading level.. (Yes - she was already reading by the time she entered Kindergarten..) I don't know that she would have had the same interest if the "topics" and/or books were chosen for her and she had never "experienced" anything to spark that interest..

So - it's not about "not reading" during the summer - because I truly can't see that happening.. It's about having experiences and the freedom to explore them without having the choices predetermined by someone else.. Their choices are made for them throughout the entire school year.. Do you really think that being allowed to follow their own individual interests for 10 weeks is going to doom them to a life of failure? I don't.. I think it will give them a much broader sense of the world around them..