How WDW dumped the Middle Class

[Nayan]

And isn't that the biggest headscratcher? How Disney convinces people to spend $800 for a hotel that is the same quality as a Spring Hill Suites?

One word...bubble. How many times have we seen folks say they don't/won't want to stay off-site because they want to be 'in the bubble'? I don't think there's anywhere else in the world (at least that I have heard of) where you can say that except for Disney.

 

[jennab]

And don't forget airfare has actually dropped tremendously since the '80's. Found this chart that shows the median earner has to work less than half as long, than in the early '80's, to pay for a ticket.

View attachment 999382

I’m curious what is included in “average round trip fare”. Years ago your seat assignment, checked bags, and food were included in the airfare cost and today they are not. Is this comparing apples to apples or is it comparing the old full service airfare coats with current basic economy selection.

 

[disneyseniors]

Just an FYI, we did not "just drop 15k on a vacation", it was actually something we saved for for about 7 years because it is something we really wanted to do.

@DCLMP your right that is not how economists look at the economy but that is how the average person evaluates their place in it

@OhDannyBoy If we don't have money for a vacation, we don't go. We strongly believe no debt for vacations

We are mid class, save for retirement, vacations, and other things like improvements on the house but also want to enjoy our currnt time, retirement is just 5 or so years away for us but you never know what your health will be like in retirement. I would hate to retire and find out that for some reason we could not physically go on that Alaskan cruise and regret not going sooner. We have plans for retirment but we also know you shoukd never count on absolutes.

Travel and WDW are just one of our goals and values. Each person can choose what to do with their money. I just want people to be happy with their choices regardless what they choose

I would hate to retire and find out that for some reason we could not physically go on that Alaskan cruise and regret not going sooner.

You are smart to take into consideration that one of you might not be able to go on some of your vacation trips when you retire. For example, my husband and I used to travel a lot, then he had nerve issues in his leg which has affected his walking and stability. He can't walk at the parks anymore and refuses to use a scooter (I know I've tried all the ways to get him to consider), so our days of traveling to anywhere that involves a lot of walking are over. I now go to Orlando with my son or daughter, but I really miss those days we spent together on our trips to WDW. So, if you are able to swing it, I would definitely travel now when you can.

 

[jennab]

It’s really hard to define “middle class”. The range is very large in many areas. It also depends where someone is in life. A family of 2 adults and 2 small children living on an income of $150k is not going to have nearly as much expendable income as a couple with no children at home making $150k. Especially if that couple is older and their home is paid in full. These two income scenarios are not comparable.

 

[DCLMP]

It’s really hard to define “middle class”. The range is very large in many areas. It also depends where someone is in life. A family of 2 adults and 2 small children living on an income of $150k is not going to have nearly as much expendable income as a couple with no children at home making $150k. Especially if that couple is older and their home is paid in full. These two income scenarios are not comparable.

Agreed thats pretty much would I said a few posts ago. Don't forget the DINK folks. A lot of couples seem to be taking that route. Also when peoples assets go up in value house, 401k etc they feel more comfortable spending more. Not a good trap to fall into. Inflation has been negating any positive vibes I've had seeing my IRA, and 401k rise.

 

[Minnie1222]

A WSJ article from earlier this year revealed that an unexpected number of guests surveyed by Disney in 2024 did not intend to visit WDW again.

I'm guessing the two top complaints were costs and crowds? Unfortunately, these two variables are in an inverse relationship. In a normal situation, you can not simultaneously have low costs and low crowds.

Because it's not just losing that one guest today. It's losing the next generation that doesn't develop an emotional attachment to WDW as a vacation destination. And when you're in the business of selling magic, pixie dust and overall good feelings, that's a problem.

This concept may work if the world population is heading towards a great decline and all the guests who are still visiting today don't have offsprings, relatives, or friends.

 

[LAS2AMS]

I’m pretty certain Len Testa (or at least somebody from TP) has made that argument in these forums, I’ve refuted it and he ignored my assertions.

Most of the visitors to Disney are middle class, not super wealthy. Everybody is in a different financial position. The biggest expense is housing. Some people bought homes when the market bottomed, others were at the right place/ right time. I hate a friend who purchase his first home in Florida for $200K in 2019 and then flipped it for $600K barely a year later, as WFH drove up FL real estate.

Even then… many Disney families make huge sacrifices. All of their entertainment budget, etc. goes entirely to Disney.

That said, Disney is not some big, evil company. Supply and demand dictates prices. Disney Adults crying about price would make 9 trips to Disney instead of 6 if prices were lower.

Ultimately, if you don’t like Disney’s pricing, vote with your wallet.

 

[jennab]

Agreed thats pretty much would I said a few posts ago. Don't forget the DINK folks. A lot of couples seem to be taking that route. Also when peoples assets go up in value house, 401k etc they feel more comfortable spending more. Not a good trap to fall into. Inflation has been negating any positive vibes I've had seeing my IRA, and 401k rise.

Yes, for sure. I mean having 2 kids in daycare is a mortgage payment or more on its own. Having no children, or grown children who support themselves, frees up a lot of money that people could use on vacations.

ETA - also a family with the same setup making $80K and $150k are in the same “middle income” bracket but they likely have to live very differently. The brackets are very large based on reality.

 

[DCLMP]

Yes, for sure. I mean having 2 kids in daycare is a mortgage payment or more on its own. Having no children, or grown children who support themselves, frees up a lot of money that people could use on vacations.

Some day I hope to be freed up. It's rough for young people right now. This board seems to be composed of mostly Gen X and boomers. It will be interesting to see if twenty years from now Gen Z is going to WDW in great numbers. As many times as my kids have been I'm not sure it's something they will continue on their own dime.

 

[RivShore]

I wouldn't compare a Disney value resort to a reputable hotel. It's bare bones on amenities. Outdoor hallways, no restaurants, and it doesn't even have a gym. Again that has nothing to do with the point of the article...that seems to keep getting lost in this discussion.

By reputable, I just meant safe clean and in a good neighborhood that is all.

And I only brought up the comparison because you said 4k was too much to spend on 8 nights in WDW.

 

[DCLMP]

By reputable, I just meant safe clean and in a good neighborhood that is all.

And I only brought up the comparison because you said 4k was too much to spend on 8 nights in WDW.

I did not say that it was too much to spend on WDW. Nope didn't say that. I said it was pricey for a value resort for two. Big difference.

 

[RivShore]

They aren't though. There is a marked decline in park attendance this year.

Now that has a lot of contributing factors like a massive decline in international travel to the US, but the numbers are a lot lower this year.

That being said I do agree 20% is probably off.

The parks have seen their lowest attendance since 2012 in the first quarter of 2025 (Disney's Q2 report) and summer has had lower than expected crowds according to Len Testa of touringplans.com.

Please supply sources because the Q2 report says nothing of the sort and Len has admitted on these very boards that his crowd estimates have been off this year.

From the Q2 report:

Domestic parks (Q2 2025)

• Operating income for Domestic Parks & Experiences grew 13% year-over-year to $1.8 billion.
• The increase was driven by higher theme park attendance, increased guest spending, and the launch of the Disney Treasure cruise ship.
• Strong performance at Walt Disney World and Disney Cruise Line offset lower results at Disneyland Resort, which experienced increased costs due to inflation.

 

[RivShore]

I’m curious what is included in “average round trip fare”. Years ago your seat assignment, checked bags, and food were included in the airfare cost and today they are not. Is this comparing apples to apples or is it comparing the old full service airfare coats with current basic economy selection.

Here's the link to the chart and article: https://economistwritingeveryday.co...ot-soared-since-1980-theyve-been-cut-in-half/

If you click on the DOT source data link in the 3rd paragraph, it seems to be an all in price comparison:

The exhibit below offers a time series of the average “all-in” domestic round-trip airfare.1 Included in the “all-in” fare are the average base fare and the average bag and change fee revenue per passenger.

 

[jennab]

Here's the link to the chart and article: https://economistwritingeveryday.co...ot-soared-since-1980-theyve-been-cut-in-half/

If you click on the DOT source data link in the 3rd paragraph, it seems to be an all in price comparison:

The exhibit below offers a time series of the average “all-in” domestic round-trip airfare.1 Included in the “all-in” fare are the average base fare and the average bag and change fee revenue per passenger.

Thanks. It is interesting. I feel like even 20ish years ago (mid 2000s) I could get a round trip ticket all in (seat assignment, checked bag, non budget carrier) for $200 to Orlando, and today that is unlikely.

 

[DCL58]

Some day I hope to be freed up. It's rough for young people right now. This board seems to be composed of mostly Gen X and boomers. It will be interesting to see if twenty years from now Gen Z is going to WDW in great numbers. As many times as my kids have been I'm not sure it's something they will continue on their own dime.

My kids are out of college, with great jobs and both own homes. They vacation in Europe when they travel on their own dime. Not to Disney. They go to Disney and on Disney cruises with us - since we pick up the tab.

 

[RivShore]

Thanks. It is interesting. I feel like even 20ish years ago (mid 2000s) I could get a round trip ticket all in (seat assignment, checked bag, non budget carrier) for $200 to Orlando, and today that is unlikely.

It is very much dependent on the airport too, I would imagine. If yours only has 1 or 2 airlines going to MCO when it used to have 4, it probably is more today.

 

[jennab]

It is very much dependent on the airport too, I would imagine. If yours only has 1 or 2 airlines going to MCO when it used to have 4, it probably is more today.

I’d say if anything there are more flights to MCO from my airport than there were 20yrs ago. But as with everything, prices usually go up, so I’m not surprised. I mean gas obviously costs more now too