How powerful is a PRAYER?

[cybrkitn]

Push, push, push it onto them, until you get 'em convinced. Sure sounds like a great way to spread your beliefs. Sounds like the whole family is pressuring the poor guy. Maybe you could just give him some plain 'ole familial support, and not try to tie it all into the Church.

I'm glad your praying has helped you get through your time, but I don't for a moment believe you are out there changing anyone or pointing a god to someone who needs to be changed.

No, they did not push anything onto him. The decision is completely his own. Yes there are some Christians who do (and I am guilty of that at times with my own family). But no one has been pressuring him. And believe me we are and have been there for "plain 'ole familial support".

The day of his mother's wake/funeral, I went outside to get some fresh air and saw my nephew there. We talked a bit and the conversation went to how I handled the death of both my grandmother (my mom's mother) and my great-grandmother (my father's grandmother) 4 months apart from each other. I was very close to my grandmother and took it very hard even though I was 25 at the time. I was there for my nephew to offer support for him. It was very reassuring to him to know that he would get past it and heal. And I did not minister to him at all. He was taking his mother's death very hard and just needed the physical support. I happen to be there when he needed it.

 

[jimmiej]

If God is the creator of everything, why would he create disease to harm humans? What purpose does that serve?

From a Biblical perspective, bad things happen because of original sin. Genesis 3.

 

[cardaway]

If I know what is considered insulting to non-believers it's more likely that I won't inadvertently use those types of comments in the future.

You didn't make the comments, but you have on many occasions made comments about harsh posts by non-believers while making excuses for the similar comments from the other side.

That right there is one of the top reasons these threads get ugly. If the fellow beleivers are going to give a pass to the comments aimed at non-believers things then they are just as responsible as everbody else.

 

[Fitswimmer]

The whole thing just makes me and . She's being made out to feel selfish when it's really my grandfather who is the selfish one. Even if he's being honest about his feelings about her relationship with the church, he has to know what it does to her to tell her about it as he's near his death bed. In general, I feel pretty anti about unsolicited attempts to persuade other people about what religious beliefs they have. But what my grandfather is doing is just a low blow. It's like he wants her to feel guilty for the rest of her life after his death.

After trying to comfort my mom, I told her, "Just think of it like this. What if he were trying to guilt you into being an atheist? Then you wouldn't feel bad. He'd just be a jerk."

That is sad. I don't believe that pushing people to do anything is really effective. I was a smoker until about 8 years ago, and it seemed like the more people pushed at me to quit, the more I wanted to smoke. I think people have to find their way on their own. Everyone's journey is different, and I'm really trying to learn to respect everyone's journey-not just the people who have similar ones to my own.

 

[Aidensmom]

I am a Christian, I believe in God and prayer and an afterlife. However, I do not think anyone who does not is stupid or immoral or inferior or misguided or any of the other things that some non-religious posters sometimes feel like on some of these threads. We have different belief systems and there are things that we both can learn from each other, and civil discussions on matters such as prayer can be very interesting. I also am aware that I can be wrong about everything I believe, but I choose to believe it anyways and I enjoy discussing it. Personally, I ignore disparaging remarks on both "sides" of the issue because they contribute nothing to furthering the conversation.

Personally, I think God tells Christians to pray (which I stated earlier in the thread I consider to be a converstaion, not a wish list) because he wants to teach us how to listen, not because he wants us to ask for things. In that light, I think that if someone then "hears" God, their prayer is answered, in the same way if you say to the person next to you "Hey" and they say "What?", they have answered you. I know not everyone thinks the same (Christian and non-Christian), and I think the different understandings people have of prayer and answers leads to a lot of misunderstanding of what each other is talking about.

I don't expect anyone else to see a tangible "result" of my prayers because I don't think the result of prayer IS anything tangible. It is more a feeling of personal comfort or guidance. The one big instance where I actually do ask God for something is that I do pray for others when they request prayers, but what I pray is along the lines of that the person is able to hear God. In that way, yes, I am making a request, and honestly it is something that I will never truly know if it was "answered" or not.

 

[freckles and boo]

That right there is one of the top reasons these threads get ugly. If the fellow beleivers are going to give a pass to the comments aimed at non-believers things then they are just as responsible as everbody else.

Maybe I am not understanding you correctly... With this logic if I don't condemn orljustin's comments as harsh (which I believe they sometimes are), I am responsible for what he says? I only accept responsibility for the content of my own posts.

 

[cardaway]

Maybe I am not understanding you correctly... With this logic if I don't condemn orljustin's comments as harsh (which I believe they sometimes are), I am responsible for what he says? I only accept responsibility for the content of my own posts.

Obviously it would be best if everybody stopped, but IMO, at least the non-believers don't beat around the bush or make excuses about the posts from people like orljustin. Yes they are harsh, but only as harsh as the many of the posts from believers in the first few pages of this thread.

I guess you have to be one of us to get how badly some of these posts from believers come accross.

 

[freckles and boo]

Obviously it would be best if everybody stopped, but IMO, at least the non-believers don't beat around the bush or make excuses about the posts from people like orljustin. Yes they are harsh, but only as harsh as the many of the posts from believers in the first few pages of this thread.

I guess you have to be one of us to get how badly some of these posts from believers come accross.

I think I am one of you...

 

[Fitswimmer]

You didn't make the comments, but you have on many occasions made comments about harsh posts by non-believers while making excuses for the similar comments from the other side.

That right there is one of the top reasons these threads get ugly. If the fellow beleivers are going to give a pass to the comments aimed at non-believers things then they are just as responsible as everbody else.

I really do want to know what comments non believers consider insulting. I'm not trying to be annoying, I'm trying to understand so that when I do see something I can respond to it. I can pick out the obvious ones, but clearly I'm still missing something since you said I don't respond to them appropriately.

I did excuse the one comment on this thread about it being sad because I didn't think she meant it other than from her own perspective. If she meant that non-believers are sad, then I would consider that insulting. Happiness is certainly not a commodity that is exclusive to believers!

 

[orljustin]

Really? I'm harsh? For stating my opinion? Wow. Feel free to point out any particularly "harsh" posts.

 

[cybrkitn]

The whole thing just makes me and . She's being made out to feel selfish when it's really my grandfather who is the selfish one. Even if he's being honest about his feelings about her relationship with the church, he has to know what it does to her to tell her about it as he's near his death bed. In general, I feel pretty anti about unsolicited attempts to persuade other people about what religious beliefs they have. But what my grandfather is doing is just a low blow. It's like he wants her to feel guilty for the rest of her life after his death.

After trying to comfort my mom, I told her, "Just think of it like this. What if he were trying to guilt you into being an atheist? Then you wouldn't feel bad. He'd just be a jerk."

It may seem as though your grandfather is being selfish. But I think he may have an understanding and a peace that your mother does not have right now. From what you have said, I can see that your mother is angry. But this is the right time to pray for her (also known as intercessary prayer). Pray for her anger to be replaced with love and for her to have strength to get through. Have faith that God will do it. Do not doubt. Be prepared to succeed and stand on God's Word (the Bible). If you doubt, then you are setting yourself up for failure and your prayer will not work. This is what I am learning to do from a book that I recently bought called, "Prayer Your Foundation for Success" by Kenneth Copeland. It's an excellent book for those who want to learn how to pray and what prayer does. (Sorry if that sounded like a commercial, LOL. I realized it after I read it back to myself a few times )

 

[phillybeth]

From a Biblical perspective, bad things happen because of original sin. Genesis 3.

Two children did something they were told not to do, and we all suffer? Sounds logical.

 

[orljustin]

deleted

 

[Fitswimmer]

It may seem as though your grandfather is being selfish. But I think he may have an understanding and a peace that your mother does not have right now. From what you have said, I can see that your mother is angry. But this is the right time to pray for her (also known as intercessary prayer). Pray for her anger to be replaced with love and for her to have strength to get through. Have faith that God will do it. Do not doubt. Be prepared to succeed and stand on God's Word (the Bible). If you doubt, then you are setting yourself up for failure and your prayer will not work. This is what I am learning to do from a book that I recently bought called, "Prayer Your Foundation for Success" by Kenneth Copeland. It's an excellent book for those who want to learn how to pray and what prayer does. (Sorry if that sounded like a commercial, LOL. I realized it after I read it back to myself a few times )

but why should Grandpa be forcing his daughter into a faith that she no longer accepts and has her own reasons for abandoning. If his daughter is accepting of his faith and isn't pushing him to abandon it, why can't he have the same respect for her?

 

[phillybeth]

This reminds me of my mother. She was (is?) Catholic but stopped going to church a few years ago. She had many problems with Catholic School's treatment of my brother which first made her question the church. Then she got tired of all of the anti-abortion talk and the support of the Republican party. Finally I after I came out to her, she had trouble respecting an institution that was working to help the government discriminate against me. So she just stopped going. (When she got breast cancer in both breasts at the same time last year, she was thought God must be punishing her. I felt horrible for her that she thought this and everyone in the family shook their heads But really, it was the logical conclusion to draw; if God heals illness, then he must cause it too she figured. But that's another story.)

In any case though, her father is in his early 80s and has had heart problems for the last 25 years. His heart is now working at something like 8% or something. So he's kind of just be slowly dying for a few years--getting worse and worse. He still believes in Catholicism and watches mass on television since he can't leave the house to go to church. Lately he has begun begging his two daughters (my mom and my aunt) to watch mass with him. My aunt is still Catholic and goes to mass everyday, so he just wants her to watch with him so he can feel like they are at church together. She's not very interested in that, but is willing to do it for him. With my mom, though, he doesn't just want her to watch mass--he keeps bothering her asking her when she is going to go back to the church and tells her it hurts him that she has this rift with the church. She responds truthfully that maybe someday she'll go back, but it isn't going to happen right now. But she told me that she doesn't know what to do. She knows he's going to die soon and all he wants is for her to go back to the church and watch mass with him and she's going to feel so guilty if he dies while she's been refusing that. But on the other hand, she just can't go back to an institution which she is so angry at right now; and even the idea of watching a mass is not something she wants.

The whole thing just makes me and . She's being made out to feel selfish when it's really my grandfather who is the selfish one. Even if he's being honest about his feelings about her relationship with the church, he has to know what it does to her to tell her about it as he's near his death bed. In general, I feel pretty anti about unsolicited attempts to persuade other people about what religious beliefs they have. But what my grandfather is doing is just a low blow. It's like he wants her to feel guilty for the rest of her life after his death.

After trying to comfort my mom, I told her, "Just think of it like this. What if he were trying to guilt you into being an atheist? Then you wouldn't feel bad. He'd just be a jerk."

Honestly? Speaking as a 'recovering catholic' atheist? I'd watch TV mass with him.
I go to mass for weddings, funerals and other special occasions. I don't participate in the sacraments out of respect- to me, communion is nothing more than a tasteless wafer, but others believe it to be the body of Christ, so I abstain out of respect for their beliefs.
If my father were dying and wated me to sit down and spend a half-hour watching mass on TV, I'd do it. Watching mass, or even attending, is not going back to the church.

 

[freckles and boo]

Really? I'm harsh? For stating my opinion? Wow. Feel free to point out any particularly "harsh" posts.

You aren't harsh FOR stating your opinions. You state your opinions harshly. For what it is worth, I agree with a lot of what you say. I just think you express yourself in ways that are often as condescending and obnoxious as those who are too pious for their own good. I am sure you know this and you clearly enjoy the battle. Personally, I prefer a civil discussion because I think people will actually pay attention if they don't feel they are being attacked. I don't like being told I am worthless because I am an atheist, but most people here haven't done so. If you insist, I will try to find some of your harsher posts, but I really should be doing other things right now.

 

[cardaway]

I think I am one of you...

I know that. What made you think otherwise?

 

[cardaway]

but why should Grandpa be forcing his daughter into a faith that she no longer accepts and has her own reasons for abandoning. If his daughter is accepting of his faith and isn't pushing him to abandon it, why can't he have the same respect for her?

Well said.

 

[freckles and boo]

I know that. What made you think otherwise?

The usual misunderstandings Sometimes I can read faster than I can think. Especially when it comes to topics like this.

 

[orljustin]

I did excuse the one comment on this thread about it being sad because I didn't think she meant it other than from her own perspective. If she meant that non-believers are sad, then I would consider that insulting. Happiness is certainly not a commodity that is exclusive to believers!

I can't imagine anything sadder than not believing.

infers that "not believing" causes you to have a pitiable life. She isn't referring to herself, because if she didn't believe, she'd be happy to be that way because it was her choice. She is stating her feeling that all those non-believers out there must be having a truly unfullfilling life. "How awful your life is, that you don't believe. How sad. How empty."

Of course, I don't take anything personally on an internet discussion forum, so I just counter with my opinion, which is just as valid.