How much do you rent your points for

[Caskbill]

Dean, there's no question about any legality of renting points any way someone wants to. The point is that this is not a good thing for the membership in general.

There are many things that are "legal", but the question being addressed is who does it help and who does it hurt.

If you get hurt in an accident by a driver who only had 0.099 blood alcohol, then it's OK because he's not legally drunk?

Or you get hit by another driver who is sleep deprived, or talking on a cell phone, or dropped a hot coffee in his lap, then it's OK because none of that is illegal?

People are still harmed by other's actions, even though they are 'legal'. That doesn't mean I have to like it.

So how are we as DVC members hurt? Well, let's say you and 11 of your friends all chip in $10,000 each and buy a $120,000 Motor Home (this is a realistic price). Each of you gets to use it for a month. But one of your friends lets 30 strangers use it, 1-day each, during his month. Do you NOT believe that your maintenance costs are going to be higher, your wear and tear is going to be more severe, your insurance costs may go up, all because of one person?

Over the years, on business trips, I've rented hundreds of different cars. Many of these are pieces of junk, having been beaten by so many different drivers. In general, and there are strong exceptions both ways on this, but IN GENERAL, renters do not take as good of care of property as owners do. Just ask anybody in housekeeping at any resort.

Thus we as members pay for this. In our dues, in the quality and upkeep of the resorts (maintenance time delays), and in the ambience we expected. On this last note a reflection a few years ago at OKW some non-members (this I know from conversations, but I don't know if they were renters or cash ressies thru Disney), parked a very old RV in the lot, sideways, taking up about 4 spaces. It stayed there all week. This is against the rules, and is in our guidelines.

I wonder how many of these 'commercial' renters bother to send a complete copy of the guidelines to everyone they rent to. My guess is never. Even as you said, some of their ads are totally misleading.

Now before I get jumped too quickly, let me add that of course these are the worst case examples. I personally believe that those who rent out their points on very rare occassions, like yourself, are probably much more selective. They probably go to family, or friends, or acquaintenances, or other DVC members. And you probably inform them what to expect, and what is expected of them. You probably also inform them of how points can be used, and maybe even help them in selecting the type of unit and the days that work best for them. I have no problem with this.

But for those in a few categories who abuse the 'intent' of DVC, and care only for their own little greedy profit motives, and could care less about the rest of us, for them I have nothing but contempt. It may be legal, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

 

[Dean]

Overall I guess we agree on most points. It is within the rules but you don't have to feel it should be, that is your right. While I would agree there is the potential for a renter to trash the place, that is true of an owner also.

I guess I just am not convinced that owners are better at caring for the place than renters. Your motor home example and rental car experienced are flawed somewhat because the cost of upkeep is so removed from most of us that I doubt it will affect the general membership enough to matter. And I don’t see the owners, as a group, being that empowered or that dedicated and motivated. Remember this board is a small minority and likely an anomaly as well that isn’t representative of the general membership. Remember the member of this board who was accosted in the Laundry by another member. Also, I've met a lot of people over the years who trash their car and home that THEY own and pay to maintain.

As to renting to members, I don't believe I've ever rented to a member. I've had members contact me but it never seemed to work out. Truthfully, as a group, members tend to be more difficult to work with. Don't get me wrong, most people who contact me are a pleasure to deal with, members or not. My limited experience however would suggest that when there's someone wanting to haggle over the price or want extra guarantees or cancellation rights, it has been a member. The only problem I've had was with a member scheduling time then backing out, now a member on this board. Now maybe I've gotten a better class of renter than most but I don't think so. The few renters I've had seem to be universally appreciative and thrilled to be able to go. Think about your first stay at DVC and that is the way they relate on return. I've gotten responses like "Wow", "thanks for letting me use your home" and the like. I've gotten phone calls, emails and gifts as a thank you from people who were in awe. Also remember that the member who rents has some financial responsibility if things get out of control. While there’s no question that what visitors do at DVC affect our cost, I just see it as some people are bad people and not as a renter vs. owner issue. It would take hard numbers to convince me renters are worse than members, maybe DVC wants to do a study. Do you want to pay for a study with your dues? Now with traditional timeshares where you have the same unit every time, I might be easier to convince that ownership has much of an impact on how well a guest cares for the unit but not in general.

As to commercial, I’ve said several times on this board that the word commercial is much overused. Sorry but I feel most people who use the word in this context are consciously or subconsciously attempting to influence the views of others. I think it’s clear that DVC intended this only for their protection. I read the wording in the POS as relating to things like opening a store, putting up a name something like “DVC RENTALS” and placing large ads in the magazines and newspapers. I would equate even the largest renter I know of to more like my son mowing yards or my daughter babysitting only my kids are making more money. Of course the IRS definition would be 2 weeks a year which with a point system is a little vague.

Actually, an alcohol level of 0.099 is legally drunk in many states so I guess it depends on where you are. To me the comparison would be an alcohol level of 0.01 or less, and accordingly no factor in the final outcome. I guess this just shows the different way we're looking at this.

I’m not sure what you mean by abusing the intent of DVC. DVC’s intent was obviously to make money. Don’t confuse the statements about DVC being intended for personal use as meaning or relating to a magical stay, getting the reservation you want or any similar idealistic gut feeling. It is simply a statement to protect them, not you. Renting within the rules and laws is still personal use. I also don’t see the amount of “profit” having anything to do with this issue. To me it’s much like taxes, if I pay $100 in taxes, I’ve paid $100 of MY money. If they reduce it to $50, they’ve allowed me to keep $50 of MY money and they didn’t GIVE me anything.


I guess I don't see the extreme example you seem to fear being reality. Sure there may be one or too people so far on the fringe that all of us would look down on them but I personally haven't seen that. To me it seems that there are those that just feel from their heart that renting is wrong, much like the abortion debate where they aren’t even arguing the same issues. The renter says it’s his/her points and can use them as they wish and DVC says it’s ok. The person opposed says but they might trash the place or take a reservation that a member wants or someone might actually make a profit on renting (making money is not necessarily a bad thing BTW).

So I guess we’re pretty close on most issues, just end up falling on different sides of the fence in the final outcome, but that’s ok. To me that’s the purpose of this board, to allow us to discuss these issue. I hope I can do it in a civil manner, at least I’ve always tried to do so. I routinely read my posts and edit them to try to be non personal and sensitive while still conveying my sometime fairly strong views and belief’s. I guess it’s like the saying “a bad day on vacation is better than a good day at work”, while not totally accurate, it does convey the overall feeling.

 

[Caskbill]

Dean
I think we agree on quite a bit, and can probably agree to disagree on a few items here and there.

On the alcohol example, I left out a decimal. I meant 0.0099, or just under the .01 limit in most states.

In your example you stated how appreciative some people were to you, letting them use 'your home'. This I believe is the fundamental philosophical difference we have. To many of us, DVC is a very special home, and we treat it that way. As people start renting units out to more people in general, it becomes less of a home and just more of a 'hotel'.

All you comments are valid, as I believe are mine.

I think we all agree though that it's great to have a forum like this where we can freely exchange views, and express individual feelings.

 

[Dean]

Absolutely. Must agree that this forum is great to exchange views even when they're different than mine (read as wrong). LOL.