How does vandalism and looting accomplish anything???

[Viva Las Disney]

What about it?

Honestly I don't know what to make of it. I hardly think it fits the other narrative that he was someone lunging at the officer with his head down. At that point he'd been shot several times including the neck, face and eye. I can't see any situation where he gets shot all those times in those places them decides to go in a full on head down lunge.

All I was really trying to do was point of the arm wound are consistent with his arms being up and saying they don't fit isn't really true.

An expert on CNN said the head wounds were consistent with him falling forward. The first head wound entered near his eye, exited his chin, and ended up near his collarbone, the 2nd head wound on the top of his head is also consistent with him falling forward.

According to the expert on CNN neither head wound says anything about whether he was charging or surrendering, just that he was falling forward from the previous wounds in his arms.

 

[pooh4evr]

The national guard has been called in, after a night of more looting. Hopefully some sort of peace can be restored and the focus can go back to a real investigation.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

An expert on CNN said the head wounds were consistent with him falling forward. The first head wound entered near his eye, exited his chin, and ended up near his collarbone, the 2nd head wound on the top of his head is also consistent with him falling forward.

According to the expert on CNN neither head wound says anything about whether he was charging or surrendering, just that he was falling forward from the previous wounds in his arms.

That would have been my guess - final shot fired as he was falling forward.

 

[sunshinehighway]

An expert on CNN said the head wounds were consistent with him falling forward. The first head wound entered near his eye, exited his chin, and ended up near his collarbone, the 2nd head wound on the top of his head is also consistent with him falling forward.

According to the expert on CNN neither head wound says anything about whether he was charging or surrendering, just that he was falling forward from the previous wounds in his arms.

Thanks for the info.

Did you hear any analysis of the shots to the arm?

 

[Viva Las Disney]

Just speculating out loud here but I was looking at the picture of Micheal Brown in the street and his arms ended up under him which seems to indicate his arms weren't above his head or they would have gone out as he fell forward rather than by his waist.

Then I re-watched the video of the young female eyewitness who acted out the way she said Michael put his hands up and she put her hands near her shoulders but never actually raised her elbows away from her waist, this could explain why his hands ended up by his waist when he fell forward and also seems to line up the hand wound with the shoulder wound and the 2 mid arm wounds with each other.

Just speculation but seems to eliminate the arms near the head theory while possibly collaborating one eyewitness account.

 

[ILUVALASKA]

Ferguson riots are headline news in China.

 

[Viva Las Disney]

Thanks for the info.

Did you hear any analysis of the shots to the arm?

The expert said it's difficult to determine anything from the arms because they can twist and turn and be in almost any position relative to the body.

(Although you'll see from my previous post that didn't stop me from pure speculation)

 

[SAMCRO]

I want to go out and march on behalf of this officer and his family. They need support. This man was in the wrong and he knew it. He thought he would get away with something and he went up against the officer. The results were not in his favor. This is a story about race. This has nothing to do with violence, robbery, and disrespect for authority. Had he just done what the officer asked him to do he would be alive. I tend to believe an officer over any color criminal. The stolen cigars proved that. Teach your kids/adult not to steal, stay in school, respect authority and you may keep them alive. Stop using the color of ones skin as an excuse!

Prepare to get lambasted by a couple people on this thread, because according to them all cops are just chomping at the bit to kill a black person.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

The national guard has been called in, after a night of more looting. Hopefully some sort of peace can be restored and the focus can go back to a real investigation.

Isn't that something? I just do not see this dying down anytime soon.

Now they called off Riverview HS as well today.

 

[Geoff_M]

Just speculating out loud here but I was looking at the picture of Micheal Brown in the street and his arms ended up under him which seems to indicate his arms weren't above his head or they would have gone out as he fell forward rather than by his waist.

The NYT story on the preliminary report states that several shots produced multiple enter and exit wounds, particularly the ones on his arm. This likely could only be produced if Brown's arms were outstretched towards the shooter. Now whether they may have been done so in a defensive posture in fear of being shot, or in a offensive move towards the office, it's not clear. But one thing seem likely based on this information, Brown likely didn't have his hands up in the air in the manner that is now become a de rigueur part of the protests when he was shot at the end of the encounter.

I agree that this report doesn't really offer any clarity as to what happened, one way or the other. But it certainly contains some inconsistencies with Johnson's narrative. While the report contains a major "but" along with its finding that the shots were not from close range, Johnson stated that Brown was first hit at close range as Wilson was still inside the vehicle (he saw the blood soak through his shirt), he then fired one shot from a distance (hitting Brown in the back) after Brown had run away, and when Brown then tried to surrender Wilson went up to Brown and shot him multiple times while "face to face".

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I think you are confused on another thing. It's ok , several people seem to be. I don't think the story was that he was shot in the back. It was that he was running away and turned around to surrender when he was shot. Its now become "oh see he wasn't shot in the back".

The decision not to release the autopsy was made from the beginning. Since the police chief disregarded the recommend of the DOJ about releasing the robbery tapes, its hardly a reasonable conclusion that the autopsy wasn't realized for fear if increased violence l.

At least 1 witness claims Brown was shot in the back.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Maybe someone knows the answer to this:


When apprehending a fleeing subject that stops to surrender, is it typical to ask the subject to turn & face the officer? Or, would the officer order them to remain facing away, put hands on their heads, and either drop to their knees or lay down?

Anyone from law enforcement know the drill?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

There have been or will be three autopsies:

1) Ferguson Police/ME: the first one and the only one not released

2) Bader: (the one we are talking about) performed by the family (released)

3) Federal autopsy which is likely in progress.

If the line of logic says that the autopsy was not released becuase it does not fit a narrative... then whose narrative does it not fit?

Hmmmm... it was the Ferguson ME's autopsy that has not been released, so by that line of logic it would be the Ferguson police narrative that it does not fit.

I also believe that since the video WAS released... the decision not to release the Ferguson autopsy is not about fear of more violence ...

Or they said from the beginning that they weren't releasing it until toxicology was completed (takes several weeks).

But feel free to believe what you wish.

 

[TLSnell1981]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/u...least-6-times.html?smid=tw-bna&_r=2&referrer=

Mr. Brown, 18, was also shot four times in the right arm, he said, adding that all the bullets were fired into his front.. 2 were to his head.

This is consistent with the unintentional recording of an eyewitness, who lives in the neighborhood. He said about five shots were fired.

It discredits a few eyewitnesses but unfortunately doesn't offer anything conclusive and still doesn't answer what happened.

With all the bullets entering in the front it contradicts the story he was shot while running away and is consistent with the report he was charging towards the officer but is also consistent with him being shot after he turned around to surrender. The final shot being in the top of the head doesn't help either because as the Dr stated it could be from charging or kneeling down to surrender.

Hopefully the other autopsies can pinpoint trajectory, distance, or some other unknown otherwise I don't think we'll ever know what really happened, which is probably the worst possible outcome for peace returning to Ferguson.

Witnesses say the shots were fired in two volleys.... Bang, bang bang.....Bang, bang, bang, just a matter of few seconds. The final shot to the top was likely a reaction from the first hits. He was going down and the last one struck him on top of the head.

Ms Brown is on the TV as I type... as a mother myself, my heart hurts for her, no parent should have to bury their child.

I agree. No matter what the circumstances, he has a family, who loves him and will grieve. I saw the family arrive at the scene, via bystander video...and it was heartbreaking.

I think you are confused on another thing. It's ok , several people seem to be. I don't think the story was that he was shot in the back. It was that he was running away and turned around to surrender when he was shot. Its now become "oh see he wasn't shot in the back".

The decision not to release the autopsy was made from the beginning. Since the police chief disregarded the recommend of the DOJ about releasing the robbery tapes, its hardly a reasonable conclusion that the autopsy wasn't realized for fear if increased violence l.

There were claims he was shot in the back. Also, other misinformation was put forth, thus the angry violent mob scene. The unintentional recording of an eyewitness says, Brown turned around and was running toward the officer.

 

[ZachnElli]

At least 1 witness claims Brown was shot in the back.

And that was Johnson, the guy who was with Brown, he said Brown was shot in the back. It's in the New York Times link.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

And that was Johnson, the guy who was with Brown, he said Brown was shot in the back. It's in the New York Times link.

Which sort of brings up another question - if Johnson had his back to the officer, as I suspect he was instructed, did he even see anything at all?

 

[OurBigTrip]

Maybe someone knows the answer to this:


When apprehending a fleeing subject that stops to surrender, is it typical to ask the subject to turn & face the officer? Or, would the officer order them to remain facing away, put hands on their heads, and either drop to their knees or lay down?

Anyone from law enforcement know the drill?

When I went through military police training almost 30 years ago, the protocol for fleeing suspects was freeze (stay facing away), hands up, slowly lower yourself to the ground, face down on the ground with arms spread out to the side. No idea whether this is still the protocol, or whether it ever was for civilian police, so my experience really means nothing.

We were also taught that you never draw your weapon unless you believe that deadly force is necessary. And there was no "shoot to wound". If you believed that you needed to exert deadly force, you shoot to kill.

Again, I have no idea whether or not this is the protocol for civilian police.

 

[sunshinehighway]

And that was Johnson, the guy who was with Brown, he said Brown was shot in the back. It's in the New York Times link.

It is not.
The article is talking about a different witness at that point. She says he was running and his body jerked like he had been shot and he turned around, hands up and said " I don't have a gun. Stop shooting".

 

[Gumbo4x4]

When I went through military police training almost 30 years ago, the protocol for fleeing suspects was freeze (stay facing away), hands up, slowly lower yourself to the ground, face down on the ground with arms spread out to the side. No idea whether this is still the protocol, or whether it ever was for civilian police, so my experience really means nothing.

We were also taught that you never draw your weapon unless you believe that deadly force is necessary. And there was no "shoot to wound". If you believed that you needed to exert deadly force, you shoot to kill.

Again, I have no idea whether or not this is the protocol for civilian police.

My assumption would be that the civilian protocol is similar. But, that's just an assumption. Still, it makes the most sense. Being able to apprehend from behind would be safer than approaching a suspect face to face.

 

[sunshinehighway]

The expert said it's difficult to determine anything from the arms because they can twist and turn and be in almost any position relative to the body.

(Although you'll see from my previous post that didn't stop me from pure speculation)

I'm sure I'll get blasted by some for this but here goes anyways.

If the above is true then it's not impossible that his arms were hit when he was running away. The same part of your arm would be exposed if it were stretch out (like you were lunging at someone) in front of you as it would be in the opposite direction to a person behind you (like the back swingof your arm when running).

I guess it really tells us nothing other than he was in some way going down for the last shots.