How do parents & teachers feel about this bill?

[luvmy3]

I can't believe this is even a consideration.

 

[daughtersrus]

As long as it is based on how the students perform against expectations based on those students prior performance, I'm all for merit based teacher pay. Obviously, you can't compare a teacher with a bunch of bright, motivated kids from good home environments to a teach with a bunch of illiterate kids with no parental support. You can, however, compare how a teacher's students performed relative to how they were performing before they entered that teacher's classroom.

If you do that, it should help attract and retain better teachers. They'll make more money than they do in a simple seniority pay system. Every private company I've ever worked for pays based on market value and rewards its better performers. They also fire their underperformers. The practice works well for them. I don't see why it wouldn't work for schools.

How does this apply to students with special needs? As I said in a previous post, will this mean that IEP goals going to be lowered so that every student will meet/exceed the goals so that the teacher can get a raise?

I don't think that it's fair to compare other professions to teachers when determining their worth. What other job determines that value based what someone else does or doesn't do? As I said, my DD's teacher could teach her until she's blue in the face, but DD will never be close to grade level. It's not because she's a bad teacher but because DD just isn't capable of doing what other students her age are. That's not to say that she isn't learning something because she is but she will never be able to pass a test.

 

[Luv Bunnies]

I'll take the district where I live and work as an example. The school where I work is in a low-income area. It's surrounded by apartments that are mostly inhabited by non-English speakers. Consequently, the kids at the school come in with poor or no English skills and need special programs to catch up. The population is very transient. It's not unusual for kids to come to school for a few months and suddenly disappear because the family up and moved. The school has some really great teachers and they work very hard with the kids. But the circumstances are such that the school never achieves over a certain level on standardized tests.

The school on the other side of the district is in an area of very expensive homes ($800,000 and up). Most parents in that area are college educated and hold high-level jobs. The school regularly performs very well on standardized tests. I worked at this school for three years so I am very familiar with the staff and how they teach there.

I firmly believe that you could swap the staffs of the two schools and the test scores would remain the same. There are so many other factors in student performance besides the teachers. They could be working their backsides off and still not get the results on standardized tests.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I'm not sure how I feel other than improving a child between August and May is more important than the FCAT.

If the kid learned SOMETHING--then the teacher was teaching. I'm not sure SB6 does that though.

Merit pay does not bother me only b/c I'm not a fan of the "auto-raise". It shouldn't be based on test scores though.

The FCAT must die!

 

[amandaluvsgoofy]

As a middle school teacher for the last six years in an area with diverse demographics , I have to say this is dumb. All you're asking for is grade corruption. It's bad enough we have to abide to TAKS regulations (state standarized testing in Texas), but to think our pay would depend on our students' scores is awful!

 

[Hoodie]

Any time the topic of teachers' salaries/raises/etc. comes up, there are a bunch of teachers who state that student performance is not a good measure of success. Some arguments for this are more valid than others.

I'm curious to know - how would TEACHERS assess success? I think merit based pay is a necessity for teachers and frankly, I see all school districts moving towards this eventually. There is tremendous pressure for all government employees to justify their pay. Many other types of government employees have already moved to a merit-based system. Teachers are behind.

So the question is, how should merit be measured?

 

[Hoodie]

The union will never allow this.

That's the problem.

 

[amandaluvsgoofy]

Any time the topic of teachers' salaries/raises/etc. comes up, there are a bunch of teachers who state that student performance is not a good measure of success. Some arguments for this are more valid than others.

I'm curious to know - how would TEACHERS assess success? I think merit based pay is a necessity for teachers and frankly, I see all school districts moving towards this eventually. There is tremendous pressure for all government employees to justify their pay. Many other types of government employees have already moved to a merit-based system. Teachers are behind.

So the question is, how should merit be measured?

This is totally my opinion, but when someone is told their job/pay will depend on another's performance, you'll do anything to guarantee they succeed! This is not what teaching is about. To teach is to excite another to learn! Once you start teaching to a test, there is no joy in it (ie, "Sorry little Bobby, we can't go off topic or talk about other interesting stuff because it's not part of the plan"). I enjoy my job but get frustrated that my students are limited to what they are "supposed" to learn according to the state.
Not really sure if that answered your question, but I'm sure there is a better way to justify our pay (which is pretty crappy for what we do, if you ask me), but grades alone is not enough.

 

[taylor3297]

In my years of teaching, I have seen many kids who just bubble in answers on the standardize tests because they don't want to take the test. When I called the parents to let them know that their child didn't try their best on the test, the parent would tell me that was my problem. So I would hate to have my pay based on those kids. This does happen more than one would think.

 

[Hoodie]

This is totally my opinion, but when someone is told their job/pay will depend on another's performance, you'll do anything to guarantee they succeed! This is not what teaching is about. To teach is to excite another to learn! Once you start teaching to a test, there is no joy in it (ie, "Sorry little Bobby, we can't go off topic or talk about other interesting stuff because it's not part of the plan"). I enjoy my job but get frustrated that my students are limited to what they are "supposed" to learn according to the state.
Not really sure if that answered your question, but I'm sure there is a better way to justify our pay (which is pretty crappy for what we do, if you ask me), but grades alone is not enough.

I know that's the reason teachers don't want to be evaluated based on grades, but how SHOULD they be evaluated?

 

[taylor3297]

I know that's the reason teachers don't want to be evaluated based on grades, but how SHOULD they be evaluated?

I received unannounced full classroom evaluations from my Principal and Assistant Principals each year. Also, my lesson plan book was evaluated with a set list of criteria. After each evaluation, I had a meeting with the administrator about the evaluation. I was expected to explain how I evaluated the kids on the lesson that was observed, what data did I receive from the evaluation, and how did I remediate those who didn't get certain objectives and how did I enrich those who understood the concepts. I think my evaluations were rather thorough.

 

[amandaluvsgoofy]

In my years of teaching, I have seen many kids who just bubble in answers on the standardize tests because they don't want to take the test. When I called the parents to let them know that their child didn't try their best on the test, the parent would tell me that was my problem. So I would hate to have my pay based on those kids. This does happen more than one would think.

Been there soooooo many times!

 

[amandaluvsgoofy]

I received unannounced full classroom evaluations from my Principal and Assistant Principals each year. Also, my lesson plan book was evaluated with a set list of criteria. After each evaluation, I had a meeting with the administrator about the evaluation. I was expected to explain how I evaluated the kids on the lesson that was observed, what data did I receive from the evaluation, and how did I remediate those who didn't get certain objectives and how did I enrich those who understood the concepts. I think my evaluations were rather thorough.

And I meant to multi-quote, but we do something similar for our annual observations. This could definitely be a way to justify pay. A combination of grades, evaluations, lesson plans, etc could help determine a teacher's pay rather than just grades alone.

 

[Hoodie]

I received unannounced full classroom evaluations from my Principal and Assistant Principals each year. Also, my lesson plan book was evaluated with a set list of criteria. After each evaluation, I had a meeting with the administrator about the evaluation. I was expected to explain how I evaluated the kids on the lesson that was observed, what data did I receive from the evaluation, and how did I remediate those who didn't get certain objectives and how did I enrich those who understood the concepts. I think my evaluations were rather thorough.

Do you get a rating? A grade for yourself, so to speak?

 

[SpecialK]

I know that's the reason teachers don't want to be evaluated based on grades, but how SHOULD they be evaluated?

I think you have to start with the administrators who are doing the evaluations. Some are really good, involved in the educational process and aware of what is happening in their school. Others are just phoning it in, trying not to make waves until they can retire.

Evaluators could look for student engagement, activities that address different learning styles, expertise in the subject area, preparation, reaching goals and objectives. The problem is keeping it objective.

 

[si-am]

You can evaluate teachers based on lots of factors other than student performance/achievement. Some ideas: classroom observations, professional learning participation, portfolios.

 

[themilesfamily]

I think teachers should be assessed on whether they show up, have good lesson plans, effectively present them to their class, and offer good follow-up for students who are having problems and care enough about their education to accept assistance.

Period.

Teachers should be paid to teach. They're not miracle workers.

At some point kids and families have to start taking some responsibility for their own progress or lack thereof.

For example, you can't let your kid sit up all night texting and playing video games and then wonder why he or she is not doing well in class the next day.

You can't be an absentee parent and instill zero discipline in your child and then expect them to go to school and actually respect and learn from a teacher.

If we have problems in schools it's not because teachers are any different today than they were 25 years ago. It's because there has been a total breakdown of the family in our culture. AND we have a youth culture that is riddled with drugs, alcohol, violence and disrespect towards authority. I don't blame the teachers. Teachers haven't changed -- families and our culture has.

But let's keep heaping blame on our teachers until absolutely NO ONE wants to seek it as a profession.

 

[Art 1]

I think it's bad. The problem with poor student performance starts at home with the parents. Well, I guess today we say parent.

 

[Hoodie]

At some point kids and families have to start taking some responsibility for their own progress or lack thereof.

For example, you can't let your kid sit up all night texting and playing video games and then wonder why he or she is not doing well in class the next day.

You can't be an absentee parent and instill zero discipline in your child and then expect them to go to school and actually respect and learn from a teacher.

If we have problems in schools it's not because teachers are any different today than they were 25 years ago. It's because there has been a total breakdown of the family in our culture. AND we have a youth culture that is riddled with drugs, alcohol, and disrespect towards authority. I don't blame the teachers. Teachers haven't changed -- families and our culture has.

But let's keep heaping blame on our teachers until absolutely NO ONE wants to seek it as a profession.

Absolutely agree. As my husband says - we can keep throwing money at it, but there are certain schools that will never get any better, largely because the parents don't care. If the parents don't care, why should the child?

I used to volunteer as a mentor in a poorer school. it was a voluntary program. There was a definite difference between the kids who were dropped off there because mom wanted an evening to herself and those who came because the parents knew the kids needed help that they couldn't provide (this was in a large ESL area).

 

[moburg]

I don't know. I know I am evaluated on the results of my work, even if that work relies on the work of others.