How Did Michael Eisner Make Disney Profitable?

[DancingBear]

I disagree; I think there was a change in fact, and not just in perception, after Wells' death.

Re WDW, I don't have much problem with the development there anyway, particularly through 1994, when a lot of attractions were being added to the parks. Again, we could revive the master plan debate, but that likely won't lead anywhere. I also don't have any problem with the Studios and AK opening as half-parks, in the WDW context (as opposed to HK, for example). The problem came later, in using EuroDisney's problems and the Studios/AK model to justify the DCA and HK half-park plans.

What mistakes in animation precede 1994? I suppose you might say Pixar, but, IMO, the Pixar relationship itself was not the problem, but the fact that it later (AFTER the success of Toy Story) lead to taking animation in bad directions.

CapCities was after 1994. Whether Eisner had a hunger for a media empire in 1994 or not is immaterial; nothing bad had happened in fact to the Company yet related to such a hunger.

 

[YoHo]

Really? The CEO and President were forced into it by the guy that came over with Eisner from Paramount?

Whatever the discussions were within the Company, ultimately, as I said way back, Mechanic got the go-ahead and got the marketing budget, etc. You can parse each decision within the Company all you want, but the point is that stuff got done--stuff that Card Walker and Ron Miller couldn't get done.

I let this one go earlier, but now I have to comment. So Walker and Miller couldn't get this done.

HOMEVIDEO WASN'T AROUND WHEN WALKER AND MILLER WERE IN CHARGE!!!

How could they be expected to take advantage of a market that wasn't just in it's infancy, it had barely been conceived when they got pushed out?



And Eisner still resists. How late was Disney to the DVD market?
I'm not parsing decisions here. I'm relying on the information of people who worked in the company that have written it down in one form or another. You apparently are reading it all through some rose colored glasses.


You know sometimes the public perception of a corporation and it's managment is remarkably different from what the actuallities of the situation are. In fact it happens all the time. It's SOP. Why do you have such a hard time applying this to Disney in the 80s?

 

[sotoalf]

The Grand Floridian and other hotels. Many critics argue that the GF was Ei$ner's biggest mistake, not the biggest kudo. Impersonal, elitist, devoid of magic and themeing. But it signaled the end of the managed park era, and instead Disney went all SuperWalmartShopping Center, abandoning any sense of planning in the parks. Traffic, bus delays, separation from parks and shopping, all of these showed an extreme lack of vision for anything other than a quick buck.

This is not entirely true. How is the GF devoid of magic and theming? I will admit that the Caribbean Beach, Port Orleans, and the now-defunct Dixie Landings are basically the same hotel painted in different colors, but the CB was a godsend to our family in 1989. Since back then we couldn't afford to stay at the Poly, CR, or GF (and in those bygone days they were often booked a year in advance), the CB represented the only way we could stay on property – unless we stayed at one of the DTD resorts (yuck).

As for abandoning any sense of planning, well, how do you explain the sudividing of hotels and theme parks? "MK Resorts." "Epcot Resorts." "AK Resorts." If anything, the World feels a touch more intimate than it did in the mid '80s.

You're right about the Walmartization of Disney. DTD Westside is the worst addition to Disney in years, filled with stores and restaurants you can find in any big city. You can argue, however, that it isn't so much that Disney's imitating big-city homogenization but that big cities look a lot like Disney nowadays (ever been to Times Square lately?).

 

[raidermatt]

Of course there's been some planning. The point is it should have been much more cohesive than it became, and should also have included better transportation planning, both from an efficiency standpoint and a "Show" pov.

I think everyone also understands the benefit of the budgets and mods to families who want to stay on-site but simply can't afford the deluxes. But again, that's not the point. The point is they could have been executed in a far better manner, rather than appearing to you as the same hotels with different paint.

On what changed in 1994, I'll agree with DB in that it was more than just perception. The biggest change was the increase in power wielded by Eisner. The checks and balances were gone, and his influence on the company became more pronounced.

 

[Plus4206]

In defense of DTD West Side all I can say is I don't live in a big city. The only place I'll probably ever run into a Virgin Mega Store,Wolfgangs or Bongo's is at DTD. I do admit that WS is not on my top 10 or 20 list of things to do there ( with the exception of Wolfgangs.... have to sit at the sushi bar and have a few combos ) but it's still a heckava lot better then the shops out on I-Drive or 192.

 

[DancingBear]

I let this one go earlier, but now I have to comment. So Walker and Miller couldn't get this done.

HOMEVIDEO WASN'T AROUND WHEN WALKER AND MILLER WERE IN CHARGE!!!

How could they be expected to take advantage of a market that wasn't just in it's infancy, it had barely been conceived when they got pushed out?

The Walker/Miller reference was clearly a more general comment than referring to just home video. Even so, the concept was certainly out there, enough so that Disney elected to join the lawsuit to block Sony's Betamax.

And Eisner still resists. How late was Disney to the DVD market?

A post-1994 issue.

I'm not parsing decisions here. I'm relying on the information of people who worked in the company that have written it down in one form or another. You apparently are reading it all through some rose colored glasses.

You know sometimes the public perception of a corporation and it's managment is remarkably different from what the actuallities of the situation are. In fact it happens all the time. It's SOP. Why do you have such a hard time applying this to Disney in the 80s?

I'm basing my opinion on information also. What exactly is the information you're looking at which contradicts my spin on the situation?

 

[DancingBear]

On what changed in 1994, I'll agree with DB in that it was more than just perception.

Hold it. I may have to reconsider my position.

 

[YoHo]

The most recent example would be Disney War.

Disney War goes into pretty gory detail about who was making what decisions and Eisner's thoughts on those decisions.

The Sony Betamax scandle was not THE watershed moment for the home video market. The home video Market became relevent when companies like blockbuster sprang into existance.

 

[airlarry!]

This is not entirely true. How is the GF devoid of magic and theming? I will admit that the Caribbean Beach, Port Orleans, and the now-defunct Dixie Landings are basically the same hotel painted in different colors, but the CB was a godsend to our family in 1989. Since back then we couldn't afford to stay at the Poly, CR, or GF (and in those bygone days they were often booked a year in advance), the CB represented the only way we could stay on property – unless we stayed at one of the DTD resorts (yuck).

As for abandoning any sense of planning, well, how do you explain the sudividing of hotels and theme parks? "MK Resorts." "Epcot Resorts." "AK Resorts." If anything, the World feels a touch more intimate than it did in the mid '80s.

Ken, compare the implementation of the Grand Floridian to the planned hotels, the Venetian etc. In fact, compare, for the time remember, to the Poly and Contemp. These were idealized renderings of themes from the Magic Kingdom. What does the GF evoke in MK? Oh, for about a dollar I can (if needed) contrive a way to fit the GF into the theme of small town America that makes up Main Street, but let's not cheapen the discussion.

Hey, I've stayed there. I'm not knocking the hotel per se. I'm knocking Cou$in Mikey's insistence on a 'real resort' where his 'friends' could stay away from the 't-shirts and burgers' crowd.

For my money, the Dixie Landings resort would have been a better fit for the MK area. Not perfect, mind you, but better.

As for the planning of the resort, just because motels mushroomed around vague boundaries near each park does not make planning.

I'm talking about the serious thoughts about presentation, transportation, connection between hotel and park, entertainment...all of these things were there in the original plan.

Before DB drops his venti latte in his lap and screams in rage at his monitor, I'm not sayiing that the plan was perfect, or that changes could not have been made.

But will it surprise you to read that I think Ei$ner et al were the wrong crew to make those changes?

(Their idea of planning was the trying to find the quickest way to get the money from the motels over into a holding company for Go.com.)



P.S. DB, welcome to Car Three. Please use your cupholder.

 

[sotoalf]

Don't worry: I got my coffee in my cupholder (I hate Starbucks!).

You underestimate how well the GF fits in the MK area. If the Polynesian and Contemporary are resort representations of Adventureland and Tomorrowland, respectively, then I posit that the GF represents Disney's idealized version of turn-of-the-century nouveau riche luxury was like, which has a vague connection to Main Street's impossibly fantastical recreation of "small town life."

Of course, all three hotels have about as much to do with the real thing as Starbucks does with regular coffee, but this is Disney, where the fantasy overpowers reality (let's not even consider if WDW could get away with a resort with the offensively generic and nonsensical "Asian" moniker today).

 

[YoHo]

except that Mainstreet is very very very specifically themed to turn of the century north east coast small town. In fact it's patterned exactly off a small town in conneticut.

The Grand Floridian does not in any way represent turn of the century small town conn.

If anything it represents Some Like it hot era Coronado Island in San Diego. Represents it badly I might add.

 

[Plus4206]

The Victorian styling of the GF fits very well with the Northeast beach areas.

And I always thought Walt built Main Street based on his happy memories in Marceline (sp ). Didn't his boyhood hometown even have The Emporium store ? Not saying you're wrong Yoho, but this is the first I've heard that MS was based on a town in Conn. If in fact it was, then the GF is not terribly far off target.

 

[airlarry!]

Well.........maybe I wasn't clear.

Polynesian.
Contemporary.
Venetian.
Mediterranean.
Atlantean. (okay the last one comes from an actual LSU grad student proposal circa 1980s)

Grand Floridian?!?!?!?

Be it Marceline or Westbury Conn, it doesn't reeeeeally matter.

Walt's friends were painting with sketches when they put up the hotels. They were using broad swaths of color that envoked a mood or an idea, vaguely referenced back to the parks. Sure neither one is very representational...but it doesn't matter because the themes were so general and broad.

And that was good. It left a little bit to your imagination.

The Grand Floridian, when you read about the history behind this hotel, was meant to do nothing more than go after AAAA ratings, appeal to the Ei$ner's 'friends' and evoke grandeur and plush (before plush was plush). The official Disney backstory is nothing like the backstories of the other two hotels...its an homage to Florida's rail tycoons.

It is a subtle difference in design, and shows the difference between being a 'marketeer' (thank you Mr. Voice for the reference to that new word) and an 'imagineer.'

Ken, nice try on the analogy, but you could have even said that "The Grand Floridian, rising majestically, quietly away from 'Main Street' America, but with a design style that invokes the time period of the thoroughfare, is placed away from the park in a nod to the memories of those railroad tycoons who built huge palaces of safe retreat for their other well-to-do friends who escaped the hustle and bustle of the city to spend some much-needed rest and recuperation time away from the sweaty masses."

Okay. That's probably how Ei$ner himself sold it to the board in a powerpoint presentation but is that really the best that Disney could have come up with? That beats the Atlantean hotel?

1994. The beginning of the middle of the end.

 

[YoHo]

The Victorian styling of the GF fits very well with the Northeast beach areas.

And I always thought Walt built Main Street based on his happy memories in Marceline (sp ). Didn't his boyhood hometown even have The Emporium store ? Not saying you're wrong Yoho, but this is the first I've heard that MS was based on a town in Conn. If in fact it was, then the GF is not terribly far off target.

No, it really doesn't. It's almost a direct copy of the Hotel Coronado which is in San Diego California. It was seen in the Film Some like it Hot and used to represent a beach Hotel in Florida. It bares absolutly positivly no stylistic resemblence to anything east coast excepting that parts of the architecture were lifted from the Hotel on Mackinac Island and even that is an amalgamation of styles.


Main Street USA in DisneyLAND is based on Marceline.
Main Street USA in Walt Disney WORLD is based on various town in and around New England.

They look strikingly different.

This is the kind of stuff the old company would do and the company as it is now couldn't even fathom.

 

[Plus4206]

You're right about the fly over scene in Some like it Hot. I had never realized it before, but just a few weeks ago while channel surfing I just happened to see that very scene and the first thing that poped in my mind was "hey,thats the GF". But I can also go to local beach resorts here in Jersey and see similar B&B's but obviously on a much less grand scale.

 

[sotoalf]

The Grand Floridian, when you read about the history behind this hotel, was meant to do nothing more than go after AAAA ratings, appeal to the Ei$ner's 'friends' and evoke grandeur and plush (before plush was plush). The official Disney backstory is nothing like the backstories of the other two hotels...its an homage to Florida's rail tycoons.

It is a subtle difference in design, and shows the difference between being a 'marketeer' (thank you Mr. Voice for the reference to that new word) and an 'imagineer.'

You're not wrong: when Henry Flagler was invoked as inspiration, I did think, even in the early '90s, "Um, the railroad tycoon? the robber baron?" But that's Disney, and their skewed view of history, so I shrugged it off.

Where CAN read "the history behind this hotel"? Any good books about this period of Disney's development? It seems like Disney does a strikingly good job of erasing its own history. Until six or seven years ago you could find an illustrated history of WDW at any resort/park gift shop; even that has gone the way of Discovery Island.

 

[YoHo]

You're right about the fly over scene in Some like it Hot. I had never realized it before, but just a few weeks ago while channel surfing I just happened to see that very scene and the first thing that poped in my mind was "hey,thats the GF". But I can also go to local beach resorts here in Jersey and see similar B&B's but obviously on a much less grand scale.

You find Terracotta tiled roofs in Jersey?


Jersey is supposed to be evoked via the Yacht and Beach club.


Of course, the more important issue is that the hotels built and the master plan pre-Eiser called for far more exotic locales then Florida beach and New Jersey Beach. It called for Venice and Asia.

But that's another discussion.

 

[YoHo]

You're not wrong: when Henry Flagler was invoked as inspiration, I did think, even in the early '90s, "Um, the railroad tycoon? the robber baron?" But that's Disney, and their skewed view of history, so I shrugged it off.

Where CAN read "the history behind this hotel"? Any good books about this period of Disney's development? It seems like Disney does a strikingly good job of erasing its own history. Until six or seven years ago you could find an illustrated history of WDW at any resort/park gift shop; even that has gone the way of Discovery Island.

A good start would be Since the World Began.



Another comment that is sure to spark an argument.


Sombody mentioned how Caribbean beach resort was a godsend to their family because they could afford WDW.
Not really so much. Looking at hotel rates throughout the 70's and 80's, it becomes evident that right after Eisner came in, the hotel prices had to big boosts that don't tie to inflation or price index at all. Had those rate hikes not happened, but the percentges had remained as they had been, then that room at the poly or Contemp would cost you the same amount as a room at the Caribbean did when it opened.

So really, Disney didn't do you any favors.
Doesn't really help with the lead time to book, but then, that's a capacity issue more then a price one.

 

[Plus4206]

No, ya don't see much Terracotta in Jersey, but it is starting to become more popular at the shore. But the GF doesn't have Terracotta either.

I'm not a fan of the GF but more for its "snobbish" appeal rather then asthetics.

I really don't have a problem with the Epcot resort area theming. The World Showcase is showing off other countries, the resort area is showing off a slice of Americana. But I would also have been equally satisfied with a more exotic theme.

 

[Plus4206]

Not really so much. Looking at hotel rates throughout the 70's and 80's, it becomes evident that right after Eisner came in, the hotel prices had to big boosts that don't tie to inflation or price index at all. Had those rate hikes not happened, but the percentges had remained as they had been, then that room at the poly or Contemp would cost you the same amount as a room at the Caribbean did when it opened.

But this goes back to the old argument of how much money should Disney leave on the table. Is it fair for a company - any company - to accept considerably less for their product when the market says otherwise ?