HOw cruel can you get

Daxx said:
Yes, I agree that all religions have some pretty strange stuff ... but nowhere does the Catholic religion tell me that I must pay them money to go to the next level of education/enlightenment. I don't have to have my child baptised, and I will not be excommunicated from the church if I don't do this. My church doesn't expect me to choose between them or my husband should he not be a Catholic. Jewish friends have had their sons circumcised at the hospital and forgone the bris. Sure, it might disappoint parents, but their religion isn't going to drop kick them. And, I know Jewish people who eat ham and bacon! Shocking ... but I don't see their faith giving them the boot.

I'm Catholic, many years of Catholic school, and please go google "indulgences." Catholics actually have a long historical tradition of "paying for enlightenment" - that practice lasted hundreds of years and helped to spark Protestantism. I spoke to two priests in this marriage hunt of mine who refused to marry me and my Presbyterian fiance unless I committed to raise our children as Catholics. And heck, if you practice, you tithe, right? Every week?

I think that Scientology is actually somewhat forgiving of those members who diverge off one rule or another. Certainly they're more forgiving than Evangelical Christians.
 
Tracey1974 said:
I can't wait until they break up and she does a tell-all book! Of course I hope they don't ONLY for the baby's sake, but I can't wait to hear her side of the story!


Nicole never said a word so I have a feeling Katie will not either.

I have a manual from Scientology looks like a text book. There is a lot of information in it.

"Tools for better living" all Religions claim this. Tool/Rules.
 
Caradana said:
I'm not going to defend scientology because I don't know all that much about it, but I do know that I have to dunk my Catholic baby in water and verbally give him to the Lord, and my Jewish friends have to ritualistically hock off part of their sons' southern regions. So let's just acknowledge ... common religions involve some pretty strange stuff too.



:thumbsup2
 
Caradana said:
I'm not going to defend scientology because I don't know all that much about it, but I do know that I have to dunk my Catholic baby in water and verbally give him to the Lord, and my Jewish friends have to ritualistically hock off part of their sons' southern regions. So let's just acknowledge ... common religions involve some pretty strange stuff too.

I was going to post something similar but I figured it would fall on deaf ears. Of course mainstream religions want nothing to do with money. :rotfl2: (Really, I could fill a whole page with that guy.)
 

MAKmom said:
Nicole never said a word so I have a feeling Katie will not either.

I have a manual from Scientology looks like a text book. There is a lot of information in it.


"Tools for better living" all Religions claim this. Tool/Rules.



Do tell! :listen
 
I know that other celebrities such as John Travolta and Kelly Preston, as well as Kirstie Alley are also Scientologists. Has anyone heard if they did this with their children when they were born?

And for the record, I agree with Dana, I am Catholic, went to Catholic school for many years, and still think that many Catholic practices are just plain strange. A prime example is celibacy for priests, but that is a whole different topic. :)
 
cardaway said:
But many Catholics have been told they have to give or leave (happened to family members). Obviously not leave the whole religion, but certainly leave that parish. I don't see tithe as that different than what Scientology is doing.
The church wants you to support them. If you are enrolled in the church, you are asked to donate. The donation is entirely up to you. It's not based on salary (you don't have to share that info. w/the church) and is solely based on how much you want to give. However, you do not have to enroll w/a church. Big difference!!!! Many people will enroll in a church b/c they want their child to go to that parish school, b/c they want to get married in the church or have their child baptised in the church. Nobody asks you to pay large sums of money to "advance" your knowledge in the church.

There's also a huge difference in leaving a religion in its entirety (Scientology)and not being part of a parish. Nobody can force you to leave the parish - you can stay in any parish and not give ... you're just not considered a parishoner . The church may remove you from the parishoner list and that only means that they will just not offer you some of the "perks" that parishoners receive (ie: break on tuition, ability to be buried from that church). Regardless ... I have had family members not affiliated w/any church be buried in our family's church. Likewise, I know a lot of people who have become members of a church just to get their child baptised. Once the child is baptised, they "leave" (don't attend mass and don't donate)and "come back" when it's time to move on to the next sacrament. Nobody asks you to leave your religion behind nor do they boot you out of the church. You're just not given the "perks" of a parishoner. Huge difference from being booted out of the religion entirely!
 
Caradana said:
And heck, if you practice, you tithe, right? Every week?
No, I don't tithe. I teach in a Catholic school ... they get enough of my money by my reduced salary!
 
Daxx said:
The church wants you to support them. If you are enrolled in the church, you are asked to donate. The donation is entirely up to you. It's not based on salary (you don't have to share that info. w/the church) and is solely based on how much you want to give. However, you do not have to enroll w/a church. Big difference!!!! Many people will enroll in a church b/c they want their child to go to that parish school, b/c they want to get married in the church or have their child baptised in the church. Nobody asks you to pay large sums of money to "advance" your knowledge in the church.

There's also a huge difference in leaving a religion in its entirety (Scientology)and not being part of a parish. Nobody can force you to leave the parish - you can stay in any parish and not give ... you're just not considered a parishoner . The church may remove you from the parishoner list and that only means that they will just not offer you some of the "perks" that parishoners receive (ie: break on tuition, ability to be buried from that church). Regardless ... I have had family members not affiliated w/any church be buried in our family's church. Likewise, I know a lot of people who have become members of a church just to get their child baptised. Once the child is baptised, they "leave" (don't attend mass and don't donate)and "come back" when it's time to move on to the next sacrament. Nobody asks you to leave your religion behind nor do they boot you out of the church. You're just not given the "perks" of a parishoner. Huge difference from being booted out of the religion entirely!

You just perfectly explained how the religion you're describing is exactly like Scientology in how what you give is tied to your standing with that church. Not sure why you don't see that. :confused3

Now it's possible that one church may be doing something others don't, and it's already been covered that it true with Scientology as well.
 
I don't really see what money has to do with being able to wash, feed, and talk to your baby after it is born.
 
Daxx said:
The church wants you to support them. If you are enrolled in the church, you are asked to donate. The donation is entirely up to you. It's not based on salary (you don't have to share that info. w/the church) and is solely based on how much you want to give. However, you do not have to enroll w/a church. Big difference!!!! Many people will enroll in a church b/c they want their child to go to that parish school, b/c they want to get married in the church or have their child baptised in the church. Nobody asks you to pay large sums of money to "advance" your knowledge in the church.
Sure they do. Kids have to be baptized, first communion, confirmation, wedding, etc. Typically the church does not do these things for free. Some churches are pretty aggressive about making sure that a family pays for the courses, for the ceremony and lets not forget weekly collections!!

There's also a huge difference in leaving a religion in its entirety (Scientology)and not being part of a parish. Nobody can force you to leave the parish - you can stay in any parish and not give ... you're just not considered a parishoner . The church may remove you from the parishoner list and that only means that they will just not offer you some of the "perks" that parishoners receive (ie: break on tuition, ability to be buried from that church). Regardless ... I have had family members not affiliated w/any church be buried in our family's church. Likewise, I know a lot of people who have become members of a church just to get their child baptised. Once the child is baptised, they "leave" (don't attend mass and don't donate)and "come back" when it's time to move on to the next sacrament. Nobody asks you to leave your religion behind nor do they boot you out of the church. You're just not given the "perks" of a parishoner. Huge difference from being booted out of the religion entirely!
And there are a lot of churches who do not allow parents to opt out until the next sacrament. I would also be willing to bet that some money changed hands in order for those family members to be buried in the church....if nothing else you don't get the plot for free do you.

What you seem to be overlooking is the history of the Catholic church. Back in the middle ages families had to "donate" family members as well as give money (ie families have to have their children take orders as priests or nuns). Families were expected to make large donations or face ex-communication.

Scientology is a much younger religion and is still going through growing pains. Perhaps if it becomes more mainstream some of it's revenue enhancing practices will desist.
 
I couldn'rt find anything about some of these claims but it's possible that a lot of this is nonsense. This, from the Scientology website, already refutes some of the "facts".

What is a quiet or silent birth?

Having a quiet, gentle birth is all about providing the best possible environment for the birthing mother and her new baby.

It is labor and delivery done in a calm and loving environment and with no-spoken words by everyone attending as much as possible. Chatty doctors and nurses, shouts to “PUSH, PUSH” and loud or laughing remarks to “encourage” are the types of things that are meant to be avoided.

As L. Ron Hubbard, Founder of Dianetics and Scientology, wrote, “Everyone must learn to say nothing within the expectant mother’s hearing during labor and delivery.” And, “A woman who wants her child to have the best possible chance will find a doctor who will agree to keep quiet especially during the delivery, and who will insist upon silence being maintained in the hospital delivery room as far as it is humanly possible.”

Does this mean that a mother cannot scream or moan at all?

Of course they can make noises — the point of silent birth is NO WORDS. This is a principle of Dianetics and to fully understand why, read the book Dianetics the Modern Science of Mental Health, by L. Ron Hubbard. It is words that are the culprit. Outside of not speaking, the objective is generally to have as peaceful and relaxing an environment as possible for the mother and child. It is doubtful that any woman could give birth without making any noise at all.

Mothers naturally want to give their baby the best possible start in life and thus keep the birth as quiet as possible.

Does the application of these principles preclude a mother from using medicines?

The Church has no policy against the use of medicines to help a person with a physical situation. This, too, is up to the mother and her doctor.

For more information:

If you have any questions, or would like to speak with a representative of the Church of Scientology International about the above, please contact Pascal Cottier. Phone: (323) 960-3500 — e-mail: mediarelationsdir@scientology.net


What does Scientology say about the raising of children?

L. Ron Hubbard has written a great deal about raising children. In Scientology, children are recognized as people who should be given all the respect and love granted adults.

Scientologists believe children should be encouraged to contribute to family life and not just be “seen and not heard” as the old saying goes. Children are spiritual beings, and as such they need to exchange with those around them in order to thrive and live productive, happy lives. For more information on raising children, the book Child Dianetics and the course “How to Be a Successful Parent” are recommended reading.

Most children raised in good Scientology homes are above average in ability and quickly begin to understand how and why people act as they do. Life thus becomes a lot happier and safer for them.

For more information, see How Can Scientology Help Me with Children?

Do Scientologists use medical doctors?

Of course. The Church of Scientology has always had the firm policy of not diagnosing or treating the sick. Medical doctors are trained to deal with the physical aspects of illness and injury. A Scientologist with a physical condition is always advised to seek and obtain the needed examination and treatment of a qualified medical professional. Once under medical treatment, a Scientologist then addresses his illness or injury with auditing to handle any spiritual trauma or other factors connected with the physical condition which may have predisposed him to illness or injury.

There are also many medical doctors who are Scientologists themselves.

What is the Scientology view on drugs?

Scientologists use medical drugs when physically ill and also rely on the advice and treatment of medical doctors. Scientologists do not take street drugs or mind-altering psychiatric drugs of any kind.

Scientologists believe that psychotropic or street drugs damage a person physically, mentally and spiritually. They decrease awareness and hinder abilities. They are a “solution” to some other problem and themselves become a problem.

Mr. Hubbard developed an entire body of technology to enable individuals to recover from the harmful mental and spiritual effects of drugs. His discoveries are widely used in countries all over the world. (See “What is the Purification Program?” and “What is Narconon?”
 
So Scientologists don't breastfeed? Doesn't pretty much every doctor and health organization on earth agree that's the best nutritional choice for an infant?

Mom can't be with the baby -- how about dad? Shouldn't he be prevented from bonding?

Children get sick because they CHOOSE to? Gee, my girls chose all those ear infections. My niece chose to have a portion of her intestines on the outside of her body; I'm sure it was a good time for her having that surgery on the day she was born. How would they KNOW to make these choices?

As for the silent birth thing . . . I have to point out logically: mom and dad have been TALKING during the 9 months of pregnancy. What's the difference between talking in month 9 and talking while mom's in early labor? Maybe if they think there's something to it, they could prevent speech after the baby comes out, but there's no difference while mom's in labor!
 
simpilotswife said:
Sure they do. Kids have to be baptized, first communion, confirmation, wedding, etc. Typically the church does not do these things for free. Some churches are pretty aggressive about making sure that a family pays for the courses, for the ceremony and lets not forget weekly collections!!
My church doesn't charge a penny for baptisms, etc. Kids take "Young Christian" classes for free. Vacation Bible School is free. Parents do pay if kids go to sleep-away camp. We gave a gift to the pastor who married us, but that was a choice.

We do make a weekly tithe, which is Biblical, but if we didn't, no one would say anything.
 
MrsPete said:
My church doesn't charge a penny for baptisms, etc. Kids take "Young Christian" classes for free. Vacation Bible School is free. Parents do pay if kids go to sleep-away camp. We gave a gift to the pastor who married us, but that was a choice.

We do make a weekly tithe, which is Biblical, but if we didn't, no one would say anything.


Ditto, here!!
 
Becky2005 said:
I did know of a boy who was a Scientologist growing up - or at least I *thought* he said he was - after reading other stuff I'm not so sure, considering he was in public school with us and he wore glasses (but I guess that is OK - just nothing you had to take internally was our understanding based on what he told us). He certainly was normal but maybe the family didn't practice it as in-depth.
.

I think your young friend may have been being raised Christian Scientist....which is very different from Scientologist!
 
Back in the '70's I had a book called "Birth Without Violence", written by a French doctor, I can't recall his name.

It covered the no shouting part, but talking was fine. It called for dim lights, the baby to be put immediately on Mom's belly, wait to cut the cord. Don't hold the baby up by its feet, let it uncurl naturally on the belly. Try to not touch the top of the head during delivery since it would be painful. ( from the birth passage ) There was more but I forget. It's been a while! :rotfl:

None of this applied if there was a danger to Mom or baby. The best part of the book was all the photos of SMILING newborns! Really! It was incredible.

I don't recall Scientology being a part of this, maybe they chose to copy some of it. Actually, now that I think about it, quite a bit of this is the norm now. People forget how babies were handled back then. Grabbing the head, holding upside down by the feet, shouting etc. Hhhmmmm - I should try to find it in my boxes of books!

The LeBoyer method maybe?
 
My best friend once did a report on Scientology in highschool. She reads ALOT , especially science fiction books. According to her the writter of Dune basically dared L Ron Hubbard that if he could make up his own religion (ahem...cult) , he'd give him a million dollars. :confused3
 
OK "weird" is one thing...but what I am talking about is outright deception, employing techniques that define a CULT.

The person I spoke of signed up for what she believed was a series of business seminars for people who had lost their jobs and were looking to change careers. A ficticious company name was used and there was no indication at all that this was connected to Scientology. (I have read since that Scientology has many such companies and this is a common practice)

You have :

deception in recruiting
exploiting personal crisis: in this case job loss - exploiting those in transition

brain washing techniques - they were broken down (rejection of old values, guilt, confession of personal weakness, finger pointing, I could go on and on here) and then built back up in the ways of Scientology (emotional leverage, etc) - their way (only later to be named and revealed as Scientology) was the answer to all....and then they were expected to pick up and move (separation/isolation) ...and again, if their family did not sign on they were to leave them behind

religions don't do this...cults do
 

New Posts


Disney Vacation Planning. Free. Done for You.
Our Authorized Disney Vacation Planners are here to provide personalized, expert advice, answer every question, and uncover the best discounts. Let Dreams Unlimited Travel take care of all the details, so you can sit back, relax, and enjoy a stress-free vacation.
Start Your Disney Vacation
Disney EarMarked Producer






DIS Facebook DIS youtube DIS Instagram DIS Pinterest DIS Tiktok DIS Twitter

Back
Top Bottom