Homework rant

[Trek Girl]

I totally agree with this! AND, realistically, while it might make a minor difference to some, MOST people will not end up with substantially better jobs or careers 10 years in from attending a top notch school vs. a normal one. Many of the tops in their fields went to state schools, or other lesser known private colleges.
All that stress and anxiety, (or not if your kids are brilliant, but still assignments to complete every night and on school breaks, etc) with less time leftover to work on social skills, work ethic in an environment where you do not get the near "immediate" feedback of grades, staying physically fit, learning to cook or travel or clean up the house, etc doesn't seem to create well rounded people, or people who are necessarily good employs.
I also many teens pushing this hard on academics end up with self esteem which is too linked to seeing those grades and feeling like they are "the smart one"--and when they eventually hit something they do not do well, or those "grades" quit coming in once they have a real world job, this can lead to problems.

I've been following this thread, and I have to speak to this point right here from experience. It may not be true for everyone, but it certainly is in my case. I took the Honors/Advanced courses in high school, had hours of homework every night, basically had no social life. I've always been an introvert, so I didn't have much of a desire to have a big group of friends, anyway. But because of my work load, I didn't even give myself a chance to try being more social. Besides, I actually did enjoy the work, so I didn't mind. What can I say - I was, and still am, a nerd.

I continued a similar course in college, especially after I was accepted into my university's honors college during the second semester of my freshman year. I had a very limited social life there, too, because I was always busy with school work, even on the weekends. What you say about strictly linking identity to being intelligent was absolutely the truth in my case. It was the only thing I felt that I was known for, so that became my identity. It's what made me feel special.

After I finished undergrad, I was accepted to law school. I was smart, so it seemed like the logical next step for me because it's supposed to be one of those things that smart kids do - they go into things like law or medicine. Well, after two semesters, I flunked out. It wasn't because I didn't try, because I did. Reflecting on what went wrong, I know that a large part of it was probably my failure to make connections with my classmates and join study groups. They seem highly important to law school success, and if I had to do it all over again, that's what I would change about my experience there. Smh - my social ineptitude is probably what did me in there. I'm not saying that all kids who take advanced courses end up socially awkward. That's just true for me, as far as I know. I'm just saying I should have been more well-rounded and should have focused on some more things besides school when I was younger.

Of course, I was absolutely crushed because I could no longer consider myself 'the smart one'. I was depressed for a really long time after that, and my self esteem was incinerated. I did end up going to grad school and graduating, but it's still been a struggle to figure out who I am, especially now that I'm finished with school. Who am I now that my success can't be measured by grades? It took me a while to accept that grades and intelligence (or perceived intelligence) are only aspects of one's identity. It's important to have drive and ambition, but you can't let yourself get too wrapped up in that stuff. Taking regular classes instead of AP/Honors courses isn't going to doom anyone to a life of mediocrity, and taking all advanced courses and going to a top-ranked college doesn't guarantee success.

I'm not a parent, but if I had a kid, I would want him or her to take the hard classes and do well, but I would also try to see where my kid's head is at in all this. I would want to try to make sure that my kid knows that their academic prowess is only one aspect of a personality and that he or she is still special and smart even if academic performance falters. If a kid can take the advanced courses and still be happy and pursue outside interests, that's fantastic. But if a heavy school workload prevents that and causes a high amount of stress, I would rather my kid drop a few of the advanced classes. The anxiety and stress just isn't worth it, imo. High school is important, for sure, but it should also be enjoyed. It's the last few years of childhood, you know? This is especially true when it comes to family vacations. When kids start college, getting the whole family together for a trip can be tricky. Better enjoy it while you can.

Sorry for the long post, but I had to get that out.

 

[okeydokey]

I don't mind productive homework, but I hate busywork that is only assigned in order to have something to collect. There is no need to do 40 math problems if you demonstrate mastery after doing 5.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Yes, like my brother. He's a cosmetic dentist in Dallas and doing very ($$$) well.

Yep. My sister in law went to state schools. Colorado State and then UC Davis. She had decent, but not stellar grades. Never graduated with honors at any level (HS-law school). she lives in a multi million dollar home in California (which she can very much afford), was named a "California super lawyer" for 6 years running, has been California Lawyer of the Year, and been one of National Law Reviews "Top 40 Under 40" Etc.
My 8th and 10th graders are already past the highest math she ever did

My brother in law is as successful in his field, also from Colorado State with average grades.

And my husband.

I hear you. I receive a lot of unsolicited advice (my son is the only grandson on both sides of the family) and I'm pretty close to telling a lot of people to put a sock in it.

And considering my son wants to be either a professional hockey player or a scuba diving policeman at Atlantis, I do not think he will be taking an absurd course load in high school. We'll see.

May I ask the parents of the children taking a heavy load of APs and Honors, what careers do your children want to go into? And what colleges? I enjoy reading about young people's career goals, that's why I read College Confidential.

Do you really only care if they are taking heavy AP course loads?

My DD16 takes a mixed bag. She spent years thinking she wanted to be an engineer with an emphasis on LEAN production, but after spending last summer working at a summer camp for girls with disabilities she has decided what she really wants to be is an OT.

She is looking at many schools. She is trying to decide if she would prefer to do a combined program that lets her finish with the master's in 5 1/2 years, or do her undergrad in Psychology and then get a Master's from CSU (DH and I went there) which has one of the best OT programs in the nation. She is also looking at schools in Canada.

DS14 is not in highschool yet. Unlike his sister, he is not doing an American program at all. He is in a German Waldorf School, where well rounded is a requirement It is a very unique place that suits him well. There is really no choice of classes and everyone takes almost everything. In addition to all the academics needed to pass the German University entrance exams, the school has a working farm, and all of the kids help with things like growing vegetables, harvesting, feeding animals, sheering sheep, herding the sheep and goats to the river, milking goats, building fences, etc. Additionally here is a woodworking course and a sewing course, art, choir, gym and a style of dance that is unique to Waldorf education. The rest of his class takes Russian, but since he started 6 years after everyone else, he is exempt from that and helps out more on the farm in those hours.
He takes Spanish, and metal forging as elective after the main school hours.

He would like to attend university in Germany (which my pocketbook fully supports) and probably major in math or computer sciences and work in designing programs for businesses (think SAP) but is also thinking about something in the tourism industry or even possibly in agriculture. I tell him he is young and he does not have to decide yet.

 

[sam_gordon]

I do not think it should be the job of other students to help another student out. Though I do like the idea of a teacher being able to help a student out.

Who said anything about it being the "job" for other students? It makes more sense to me to ask for help from someone in the same position than it does to wait (potentially) hours to ask an adult who may not know how to solve the problem.

I don't mind productive homework, but I hate busywork that is only assigned in order to have something to collect. There is no need to do 40 math problems if you demonstrate mastery after doing 5.

But what if one person in the class NEEDS 40 math problems to "master" it? The point is you can't generate homework on an individual basis. I like the idea from the PP who limits homework in her class to 20 minutes. But if every teacher did that, you're still at 2 hours each night (assuming 6 courses a day).

 

[Minnesota!]

I have no dog in this fight because I don't have kids, but several responses have been "attacky".

My opinion about homework is that if a kid needs to do 2 hours of homework for a class, then the teacher isn't teaching well and is attempting to have the child "self-instruct" by learning it through homework.

Homework should be a review of what was learned in a 40-60 minute (I would assume) school period. It should b enough to cement a concept in a child's head.

It shouldn't take 2 hours to review 40-60 minutes worth of instruction.

I completely agree! It is ridiculous.

My children are still in elementary school, so I don't have these high school class issues yet, but after reading this thread I'm even more convinced to follow my brother's lead with his h.s. kids: regular classes only.

It's not worth the stress in their teenage life to be loaded with APs and Honors classes when they'll still go to college and have careers with regular classes. In the big scheme of things in this life, going to college for 3 years instead of 4 is such a small reward for all the h.s. stress associated with it.

I don't believe the tons-of-AP/Honors-students learn time management and stress management: they learn how to unhealthily obsess over getting the magnificent scores to get into the magnificent colleges and they feel crap when they don't get into their first choice college. I read about it every day on College Confidential.

I will do the same thing. No "top 25/50" school is worth my kids wasting their youth behind a desk doing homework.

FWIW - our school is now doing the flipped classroom that someone else mentioned and it is AMAZING! The success of the program has really been fantastic. I hope it expands. Really really has done fantastic things for kids...

 

[NHdisneylover]

I've been following this thread, and I have to speak to this point right here from experience. It may not be true for everyone, but it certainly is in my case. I took the Honors/Advanced courses in high school, had hours of homework every night, basically had no social life. I've always been an introvert, so I didn't have much of a desire to have a big group of friends, anyway. But because of my work load, I didn't even give myself a chance to try being more social. Besides, I actually did enjoy the work, so I didn't mind. What can I say - I was, and still am, a nerd.

I continued a similar course in college, especially after I was accepted into my university's honors college during the second semester of my freshman year. I had a very limited social life there, too, because I was always busy with school work, even on the weekends. What you say about strictly linking identity to being intelligent was absolutely the truth in my case. It was the only thing I felt that I was known for, so that became my identity. It's what made me feel special.

After I finished undergrad, I was accepted to law school. I was smart, so it seemed like the logical next step for me because it's supposed to be one of those things that smart kids do - they go into things like law or medicine. Well, after two semesters, I flunked out. It wasn't because I didn't try, because I did. Reflecting on what went wrong, I know that a large part of it was probably my failure to make connections with my classmates and join study groups. They seem highly important to law school success, and if I had to do it all over again, that's what I would change about my experience there. Smh - my social ineptitude is probably what did me in there. I'm not saying that all kids who take advanced courses end up socially awkward. That's just true for me, as far as I know. I'm just saying I should have been more well-rounded and should have focused on some more things besides school when I was younger.

Of course, I was absolutely crushed because I could no longer consider myself 'the smart one'. I was depressed for a really long time after that, and my self esteem was incinerated. I did end up going to grad school and graduating, but it's still been a struggle to figure out who I am, especially now that I'm finished with school. Who am I now that my success can't be measured by grades? It took me a while to accept that grades and intelligence (or perceived intelligence) are only aspects of one's identity. It's important to have drive and ambition, but you can't let yourself get too wrapped up in that stuff. Taking regular classes instead of AP/Honors courses isn't going to doom anyone to a life of mediocrity, and taking all advanced courses and going to a top-ranked college doesn't guarantee success.

I'm not a parent, but if I had a kid, I would want him or her to take the hard classes and do well, but I would also try to see where my kid's head is at in all this. I would want to try to make sure that my kid knows that their academic prowess is only one aspect of a personality and that he or she is still special and smart even if academic performance falters. If a kid can take the advanced courses and still be happy and pursue outside interests, that's fantastic. But if a heavy school workload prevents that and causes a high amount of stress, I would rather my kid drop a few of the advanced classes. The anxiety and stress just isn't worth it, imo. High school is important, for sure, but it should also be enjoyed. It's the last few years of childhood, you know? This is especially true when it comes to family vacations. When kids start college, getting the whole family together for a trip can be tricky. Better enjoy it while you can.

Sorry for the long post, but I had to get that out.

I'm glad you posted your experience, no apology for the long post needed. And I am sorry you went through that depression

I think my DD is similar, and she had some serious depression and anxiety issues when we moved to Germany and she kept trying to keep up that level of work in a language she did not even know at all when we arrived, and while trying to catch up to 6 years of French that the other kids had had.

It has taken a lot to convince her, even at this younger age, that she is awesome because she is HER and the grades are not her. Sometimes I think we're lucky we moved and hat sparked an issue while she was still younger at at home and not later like what happened to you.

And I had to giggle at your screen name--she is "Vulcan Girl" online.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Who said anything about it being the "job" for other students? It makes more sense to me to ask for help from someone in the same position than it does to wait (potentially) hours to ask an adult who may not know how to solve the problem.


But what if one person in the class NEEDS 40 math problems to "master" it? The point is you can't generate homework on an individual basis. I like the idea from the PP who limits homework in her class to 20 minutes. But if every teacher did that, you're still at 2 hours each night (assuming 6 courses a day).

Sure you can. For math, you send home problems with an answer sheet. Tell them to work at it until they can get three in a row right and then stop. If they spend an hour and are still not able to, stop and make an appointment with you to get more help.
Give a small grade, for doing it at all (they should have at least three to show you)--if you want to grade homework--and let them know that it is in their best interest to be honest about this because if they do not master it then they will do poorly on the tests.

When DD was in a typical German, university track school--the norm was to give "homework" which was never graded, and went over quickly in class the next day. It was assumed that the students would do as little, or as many, of the problems as needed in order to master the material.

 

[dizcrazee]

I don't mind productive homework, but I hate busywork that is only assigned in order to have something to collect. There is no need to do 40 math problems if you demonstrate mastery after doing 5.

I agree. Meaningful, reasonable homework is fine and reinforces what they are learning in class. "Busy work" type homework that is time-consuming and overly repetitive is ridiculous and counter-productive. It takes time away from other important things and creates resentment.

I'm a teacher, by the way (college prof.). I give just enough homework to help my students comprehend and retain the material we are learning.

 

[MouseketeerMMC]

Who said anything about it being the "job" for other students? It makes more sense to me to ask for help from someone in the same position than it does to wait (potentially) hours to ask an adult who may not know how to solve the problem.

I think you are taking my post with too much seasoning! lol

I just do not believe that other students should have to be responsible or the first in line for helping other students out when it should be the teachers. I understand what you are saying that it can sometimes be a quick and easy way to correct the problem.

 

[zoemurr]

My children are still in elementary school, so I don't have these high school class issues yet, but after reading this thread I'm even more convinced to follow my brother's lead with his h.s. kids: regular classes only.

It's not worth the stress in their teenage life to be loaded with APs and Honors classes when they'll still go to college and have careers with regular classes. In the big scheme of things in this life, going to college for 3 years instead of 4 is such a small reward for all the h.s. stress associated with it.

I don't believe the tons-of-AP/Honors-students learn time management and stress management: they learn how to unhealthily obsess over getting the magnificent scores to get into the magnificent colleges and they feel crap when they don't get into their first choice college. I read about it every day on College Confidential.

Signed up for this schedule herself based on what her teachers recommended. I was not there, nor did I have to sign anything. I suppose I could have called the school and forbid it, or punished her for it.. but I don't think it is my job to squash her drive. Now a parent pushing a kid to do this.. that's an entirely different thing. (Her school counselor did not allow her to take another class this year and mandated a study hall.. she tried.. and she was not allowed to take two AP classes in 10th grade.. she tried that too.)

She doesn't really know what she wants to do later. (Although she loves to read, and working in a publishing house has come up, as has majoring in Spanish.)

There is a very small group of kids who take all of these classes together. I definitely think some of it is to be the "smart one" and her need to rise to the expectations of others. She also has high expectations for herself.

To Vicki: a 93GPA was only in the 50% percentile?? Wow. Was that because so many kids were higher after theirs were weighted? Half of the school graduated w/a 4.0?

 

[WDSearcher]

I guess my only question here is ... if the kid who is taking all of those classes and doing all of the homework doesn't have a problem with any of it, why is the parent ranting?

I get the whole "I'd love to have family time," but you said you were just on vacation (aka "family time") and you yourself said it wasn't like this every night.

So ... is it just that it was the first night back after vacation and you were hoping for a little family time to ease back into the "real world" and that got thwarted by all the homework, or was there some special event that you had to cancel or cut short due to the workload?

I guess I don't understand the problem. (Which I guess puts me several percentiles down, considering we're on page eight!

 

[goofy4tink]

I think you are taking my post with too much seasoning! lol

I just do not believe that other students should have to be responsible or the first in line for helping other students out when it should be the teachers. I understand what you are saying that it can sometimes be a quick and easy way to correct the problem.

There's a very valid reason why so many kids get together to study....they learn from each other. Sometimes they learn more from each other than from the teacher. One teacher can seldom have the teaching style to reach all kids in the classroom. So, kids can benefit from getting help from their friends.\

And those Ap and Honors classes? Kind of tired of them. They reflect very well on the schools. This is why counselors tend to push them. I have a friend who's ds graduated last year, with my dd. He is a ridiculously bright young man....AP/honors classes all the way through high school per his counselor's advice. Well, when he got to junior year and was choosing classes, he was practically forced to take AP chem. He said no, he didn't want that. The counselor was horrified...'do you know what it will look like on your transcripts?' Well, sure, but he was going to be a business major and had not interests in chemistry of any kind. Took what he needed to fulfill graduation requirements but that was it. His counselor just kept at him until mom had to call and say, he is NOT taking an AP or honors science class..no need.

I feel badly for the poor kids that are practically forced to take all these AP/honors classes in high school. If they are struggling, then they shouldn't be in those classes. Sure, you can really raise your gpa, but in all reality? An A in a level 3 or 4 class is going to reflect better than a C in an AP class. But, we keep on putting our kids feet to the fire...all in an effort to get them into what we believe to be prestigious colleges and universities. And believe me.....plenty of people are making very good livings at very good occupations coming out of less 'well known' schools.
Very few people are actually employed in a job that was their first major in college...some are in different occupations than the major they graduated with. I just think there is way too much emphasis on scores, and class levels today. Everyone seems to focus on AP/honors classes. And those classes are always the most full. Go figure. I highly doubt that we have raised children that are that much smarter than they were 20 years ago.

 

[Jill in Chicago]

Hey OP! I'm glad you and your daughter enjoy spending time together. It sure does get tough as they get older. Nothing wrong with missing your daughter, and especially knowing she will be moving on after high school.

Yep the homework is intense for Advanced Placement Classes. Sounds like your daughter is up for the challenge. AP classes were not offered to DH and I back in the late 70's, and we were not prepared for the crushing blow of college homework. Your daughter, as were our sons, will not be surprised when they hit college.

Our boys were very active, like your daughter, with additional groups and volunteer work. Grab the time together when you can. Write them notes. Back them goodies. I used to buy Panera Bread so when they made lunches they had extra nice bread "from Mom." Favorite dinners are also a great way to lure them in. LOL! Text them even when you are in the same house together. It makes them smile.

You are blessed to have a daughter you want to be with, and she with a Mom who wants time together.

The best time for our boys to regroup with mom and dad was late in the evening. Wooeee, not the best time for me, but I stayed up on the weekends they were home. I would plop down in the living room and read a book and sure enough they would wander in to chat.

 

[gina2000]

I interview for my alma mater, which has a school of foreign service. So a lot of these applicants want to work for the state department & diplomatic corps. But there are also many applicants who want to go into law or medicine. Very few who want to stop at just an undergraduate degree.

Are you a Hoya?

 

[ColoradoMom!!]

WOW - well one advantage of getting older is having lived through this stuff. It's not black and white, each kid is different, and you can do as little or as much honors/AP as you want.

Our older son took all AP and Honors in english and social studies although his strong suit was math. He did end up taking AP Calc AB his senior year, got an A both semesters and totally bombed the AP exam. Who cares? Getting credit for an AP course was never our goal. He had some of the best teachers and great kids in those classes and he loved them. They also prepared him for the ACT (or SAT). His AP World History teacher for his junior year is one of the most outstanding teachers I have ever met, and as a 7-12 social science credentialed teacher myself, I have great expectations.

He only ever wanted to go to one school, CU Boulder. It is a great school, but not top 25. Some of his peers were not accepted, but it isn't Harvard either. He loves it and is doing well.

He was never overloaded in HS, played baseball and saxophone in jazz band. He did work hard, but also had a great social life. But it is all about balance. I know some of his classmates who did kill themselves in more AP classes and went to colleges where the admission requirements were less than CU. But so what?

The only thing I will mention to a previous poster is not to count out the Honors and AP out of fear or thinking they simply aren't necessary for your student's goals. In our case they were simply excellent classes taught by excellent teachers and had some real great kids in them. Also the weighted grades in them do have an inpact on GPA and class rank.

My younger son is now a freshman at the same school and isn't as academically inclined as my older son. He will not be taking any AP or Honors and it makes me sad that he will miss out on some of those great experiences. Also, some of what goes on in his regular classroom as far as being surrounded by some students who constantly disrupt is a bummer too. But that's a whole new thread entirely.

As far as homework is concerned, I agree that more doesn't equal quality education. I think math is probably the one subject that needs the most at home practice. Busy work is just lazy teaching.

 

[manning]

A number of years back there was a piece, I think 60 minutes, about a teacher who got top grades from his student and he wasn't an easy grader. He did not believe in homework on weekends and holidays. His seasonal amount of homework was monday through thursday nights. He said if he couldn't get the job done under those conditions he was taking pay under false pretense and not a good teacher.

 

[MouseketeerMMC]

There's a very valid reason why so many kids get together to study....they learn from each other. Sometimes they learn more from each other than from the teacher. One teacher can seldom have the teaching style to reach all kids in the classroom. So, kids can benefit from getting help from their friends.

And this is why a teacher should make extra time before school and afterwards for students to be able to go and get help when needed. My main point is that other students should not be obligated to do what a teacher is paid to do. If a student does not understand how to do something the teacher should be able to have enough time through planning out their day to have extra time.

A number of years back there was a piece, I think 60 minutes, about a teacher who got top grades from his student and he wasn't an easy grader. He did not believe in homework on weekends and holidays. His seasonal amount of homework was monday through thursday nights. He said if he couldn't get the job done under those conditions he was taking pay under false pretense and not a good teacher.

I work with a teacher who shares this same philosophy.

 

[VickiVM]

To Vicki: a 93GPA was only in the 50% percentile?? Wow. Was that because so many kids were higher after theirs were weighted? Half of the school graduated w/a 4.0?

Yep...Bingo!

http://www.usnews.com/education/bes...hool-district/ronald-reagan-high-school-19631

Approx. 1/2 the population takes AP courses.

Glass half empty/half full syndrome: Your kids are better for the exposure and competition to perform and will likely do better...or your kids don't stand a chance of achieving excellence among their peers unless they are very gifted.

 

[kaytieeldr]

How did we get from homework taking 3-4 hours each night to each class giving 2 hours of homework each night?

You have to ask? This is The DIS

 

[sam_gordon]

And this is why a teacher should make extra time before school and afterwards for students to be able to go and get help when needed. My main point is that other students should not be obligated to do what a teacher is paid to do. If a student does not understand how to do something the teacher should be able to have enough time through planning out their day to have extra time.

But weren't you the one who brought up that parents often don't get home until after 5? Transportation before/after school can be a big problem in some families.

I never suggested (and I didn't read it in goofy4tink's reply) that other students should be "obligated". I don't see a problem with a student reaching out to another with "I don't understand #3 on our assignment." ESPECIALLY if the students are friends.