homeschool ? Please help.

[Mary2e]

I don't think you've ruffled any feathers. You keep saying that people are sensitive but all I see are posters trying to answer your questions. I don't think anyone is being sensitive.

I did want to say, however, that I think assumptions are being made. We have to be very careful not to over-generalize. Not all homeschoolers who are religious are zealots or idiots...and they have a right to their opinions. Not all homeschoolers are lacking in upper level science or math. There are many, many shades of gray here, just as with traditionally-schooled kids.

And while some homeschoolers certainly don't get a complete education the same can be said for some children in regular school. Let's talk about the drop-out rate and the fact that those kids don't get what they need, or kids who finish school having taken the bare minimum of courses. It's a problem that affects all children, homeschooled or not, and I would look to the parents. Yes, some homeschooled parents are not "doing right" by their kids, but the same is true for parents in every sector of society.

I don't disagree, but the way some folks are jumping at me, claiming I said things I did not, refutes your statement.

I said a small subset... that's all I ever said. I realize that only 28 states test, and that concerns me. The states that only have a portfolio for HS children is what concerns me.

As for PS not doing their jobs either - I agreed with that to - but also said there are mechanisms in place, such as standard testing, to attempt to correct that issue. Is it corrected all the time? No, but at least the opportunity exists. It doesn't exist for those students that don't get standard tests in the 22 states that don't test.

I haven't made any blanket statements and would love to be pointed to where I have. But the HS parents seem to be really sensetive about this. And that makes me wonder why.

 

[meandtheguys2]

Why would portfolios concern you? There are documented problems with standardized test. Everyone agrees that they do not give an accurate assement of ability. Teachers teach to the tests out of necessity, and kids lose.

Portfolios in OH are examined by certified teachers. They are a collection of work from the school year, and are probably far more accurate in showing how a child is progressing academically.

OH laws require testing or portfolios. We test every 2 or 3 years, and do portfolios in between. I know my kids test well. They score consistently in the 98/99 the percentile. Portfolios show what we may be missing, however, and allow the input from people I respect. Frankly, the easiest option is to test. I could literally sit back on my heals for the next 2 years with my two oldest boys, and not teach a thing. And still have them score 50th percentile on age appropriate tests.

I think you see ruffled feathers where there are none. As with most issues, we see what we want to see.

 

[Mary2e]

I'm going to bow out of this discussion because, unless you're a religious parent that is teaching your girls traditional roles instead of math, there's nothing I'm disagreeing with here. If you think sewing is more important than math or science, well, you're doing your child a disservice unless you are teaching them both.

You want to home school? Good for you. I hope your child is getting a better education than those in PS.

My concern is for those children falling through the cracks with little to no oversight and no standard testing as a safety net.

Seriously folks... get a grip...

Why aren't you concerned with those chldren and the impression they are leaving on the rest of the country?

What are you doing to change it except quote statistics on how your homeschooled child is doing well?

 

[Taqwus]

I go to a fairly prestigous private college now and have had no difficulties because I have never taken any sort of calculus. I don't even need calc to graduate from this college. I would ask anyone who feels my education is lacking to spend one night in school with me. My friends don't call me Hermione for nothing

Just curious what school/curriculum you are going for. The only ones I know of that are considered hard and would not have Calculus are medical degrees, though I know it might help if you had any rate of change type stuff

Do you want to hear something funny?


My sister just lost her job from a lay off BECAUSE OF HER COLLEGE DEGREE!

The person who made the decision is about 2 fries short of a Happy Meal. The logic imposed was that since she was the only one with a degree, she would have the easier time of finding a job.

As true as that MIGHT be it is a bit screwed up, don't you think?

There might have been something else, was she costing them more in terms of pay. I got laid off of that I was making 14$ when the other people near me were making $10 if they were lucky

When you home school, you can alter your schedule and allow for more creative learning processes. You're at an advantage with bees when you home school because you can change your schedule around to account for devoted studying for it. You also are not tied down to a 6 hour day that has to encompass X number of subjects.

That is one part of homeschooling I like, but I think it should augmented with a more regimented structure like from a public school

To answer in regards to regular chemistry, yes you can safely teach it at home.

hehe you never died your arm purple or managed to set fireproof things on fire

Calculus is not a basic course. It is an advanced course.

When I started Algebra II was not even considered a basic course now look at it. Pretty much as time goes on the learning our kids receive will become better and better and courses we consider advanced will become basic
In 1991 Physics was an elective and if it was required it was usually just the Algebra based one, now most places require it and and pretty much any degree over a business/arts degree requires it

It -kiiiiiiills- me to see parents describe their kids as "not the college type," I have to admit. My mom just finished her Bachelor's the other day, because she found that she needed it to keep a job. The woman has over 20 years of experience in IT, with an Associates degree from a community college.

The type of thinking that says their kid is not a college type is dying out thankfully, yes I know there are a few who have a "calling" and will be able to achieve better than the average 500-600$ per week a non=degree person makes (according the bureau of statistics)
A while back I use to be a bartender and I would hear a lot of stories like that, parents didn't go to college and do not think their kids should

And while some home schoolers certainly don't get a complete education the same can be said for some children in regular school. Let's talk about the drop-out rate and the fact that those kids don't get what they need, or kids who finish school having taken the bare minimum of courses. It's a problem that affects all children, home schooled or not, and I would look to the parents. Yes, some home schooled parents are not "doing right" by their kids, but the same is true for parents in every sector of society.

I think this poster should realize one big difference here is that most kids who drop out of public schools are poor, how many home schooled kids can find who come from poor families. They are really comparing apples to fish there

 

[meandtheguys2]

I'm going to bow out of this discussion because, unless you're a religious parent that is teaching your girls traditional roles instead of math, there's nothing I'm disagreeing with here. If you think sewing is more important than math or science, well, you're doing your child a disservice unless you are teaching them both.

You want to home school? Good for you. I hope your child is getting a better education than those in PS.

My concern is for those children falling through the cracks with little to no oversight and no standard testing as a safety net.

Seriously folks... get a grip...

Why aren't you concerned with those chldren and the impression they are leaving on the rest of the country?

What are you doing to change it except quote statistics on how your homeschooled child is doing well?

I guess the issue is that I've never met anyone who teaches that way. I personally know over 100 homeschooling families. They all provide an excellent well-rounded education. Homeschoolers want moor for their children, not less. To have such an odd focus on this issue/example, I am assuming you know someone personally. Yes, I would be concerned if I were to meet that person, but frankly, that person would probably be underground. At that point they are legally truant from school, rather than poorly homeschooling.

You didn't, btw, answer re. why you have an issue with portfolios. It is easy to ask questions and accuse people of being offended, but a lot harder to participate in a discussion.

Poor impressions derived from extreme behavior are seldomly accurate. All children deserve excellent education. Whether they attend the local school, or homeschool.

Crankyshank, I had to laugh. You are right. I made it through my PhD without ever having to take Calculus. My boys will take it because they are into that kind of thing! They may never be able to spell well, though!

 

[pansmermaidzlagoon]

the whole "you are only as good as your teacher" thing: let me tellyou, from the spelling and grammar errors coming home on papers from teachers and teaching materials (!!!!!), I really can't see how the OP could do any worse!!!!

From what I have seen, at least home school parents (the good ones, the majority any way...) evaluate their weaknesses and supplement them or have one parent teach their strengths, etc.....

I have considered homeschooling...and admire anyone who takes on this awesome task. It is a huge commitment in terms of time and effort! I have also read the studies on outcomes - I see far less to worry about than our current social experiment of no child left behind, new math, etc!!!!

(I never took Calculus - High School Honor Society student; college double major with a concentration in a third - graduated cum laude; admitted to grad school in a life sciences area....was not an issue)

 

[LadyShiva]

You didn't, btw, answer re. why you have an issue with portfolios. It is easy to ask questions and accuse people of being offended, but a lot harder to participate in a discussion.

Wow. That is so far off the mark of what she said!

As she has left, let me reiterate her point. She doesn't understand why homeschoolers do not pressure for education standards in order to help those children receiving inadequate "religious-based" gender-discriminatory schooling.

So, would you mind answering her question? I also would love to know why it is ok to teach sewing instead of basic classes.

Brandie

 

[LadyShiva]

the whole "you are only as good as your teacher" thing: let me tellyou, from the spelling and grammar errors coming home on papers from teachers and teaching materials (!!!!!), I really can't see how the OP could do any worse!!!!

From what I have seen, at least home school parents (the good ones, the majority any way...) evaluate their weaknesses and supplement them or have one parent teach their strengths, etc.....

I have considered homeschooling...and admire anyone who takes on this awesome task. It is a huge commitment in terms of time and effort! I have also read the studies on outcomes - I see far less to worry about than our current social experiment of no child left behind, new math, etc!!!!

(I never took Calculus - High School Honor Society student; college double major with a concentration in a third - graduated cum laude; admitted to grad school in a life sciences area....was not an issue)

And if you publish in a journal, your articles will have the typos edited out of them by a professional editor, I presume?

Brandie

 

[MushyMushy]

I don't disagree, but the way some folks are jumping at me, claiming I said things I did not, refutes your statement.

I said a small subset... that's all I ever said. I realize that only 28 states test, and that concerns me. The states that only have a portfolio for HS children is what concerns me.

As for PS not doing their jobs either - I agreed with that to - but also said there are mechanisms in place, such as standard testing, to attempt to correct that issue. Is it corrected all the time? No, but at least the opportunity exists. It doesn't exist for those students that don't get standard tests in the 22 states that don't test.

I haven't made any blanket statements and would love to be pointed to where I have. But the HS parents seem to be really sensetive about this. And that makes me wonder why.

Quite frankly, I think this over-reliance on standardized testing by the public school system is extremely worrisome and I'm not sure where you get the idea that it's a valid indicator of a good education. Portfolio assessment would be far superior to that, and that's what a lot of states (including mine) use for their homeschoolers.

I don't see where any homeschool parents are being "sensetive," but they're trying to answer your questions. You just keep arguing around and around the point without attempting to discuss what's actually being said.

 

[Crankyshank]

Just curious what school/curriculum you are going for. The only ones I know of that are considered hard and would not have Calculus are medical degrees, though I know it might help if you had any rate of change type stuff

I am a history major. I never said my major was hard, although my non history major friends would and have said it is. The difficulty level of a major is incredibly subjective. I said my school was fairly prestigious, which it is for a small Catholic college. My school requires 3 math credits for liberal arts majors, but it does not have to be calculus. I am going to be taking "essentials of math" which is basically Algebra III with some basic calculus thrown in.

 

[LadyShiva]

Quite frankly, I think this over-reliance on standardized testing by the public school system is extremely worrisome and I'm not sure where you get the idea that it's a valid indicator of a good education. Portfolio assessment would be far superior to that, and that's what a lot of states (including mine) use for their homeschoolers.

I don't see where any homeschool parents are being "sensetive," but they're trying to answer your questions. You just keep arguing around and around the point without attempting to discuss what's actually being said.

So subjective analysis of a body of work by a student is preferable to testing basic skills at various grades levels?

I agree that tests that utilize essays are much harder than multiple choice tests.

Brandie

 

[Crankyshank]

Crankyshank, I had to laugh. You are right. I made it through my PhD without ever having to take Calculus. My boys will take it because they are into that kind of thing! They may never be able to spell well, though!

You mean you were able to take the standardized testing required for graduate programs without Calc? Oh that makes me feel so much better! I haven't taken math of any sort in 15yrs so the GRE is stressing me out

 

[disneymom3]

Those 28 states require standardized testing per the info that Jenny found.

As mush as I hate the philosphy of HSLDA their map and info is probably the best all in one resourse on what the various state laws are.
http://www.hslda.org/laws/default.asp

sha_lyn---what is going on here??? Is the sky falling??

It about killed you to put that link in there, didn't it?

That is exactly what I was thinking. sha-lyn!

I don't know, honestly. I guess that there is an assumption that no parent wants their child to be stupid. A parent undertaking the task of homeschooling does so for some pretty strong reasons. It isn't an easy job. It is hard, and frustrating, with the underlying stress of fearing I've forgotten something.

Hey speak for yourself there missy! I for one am hoping my child is going to grow up to be a complete uneducated failure. When I don't feel like teaching I just send them down to the local bar and figure that they will learn real life experiences there.

Seriously, as for the concern about religious zealots, first off, hard as it is to accept that is their right as citizens of the US. There are people living on communes or in cults who do not give their children a typical education. Think about those folks someone just had a thread about who live in UT and have multiple child brides etc. Yes, there is all kinds of crap going on out there in the world. There are bigots who teach racism to their children who go to public school, there are radical Muslims who scream at my children when we go to the park down the road about killing Christians (I have not figured out how they even know we are Christians ) We live in a diverse country and we are not going to like everything that everyone does.

So, would you mind answering her question? I also would love to know why it is ok to teach sewing instead of basic classes.

Brandie

I guess I am confused about where it is okay to teach sewing instead of basic classes. In states with a portfolio review, sewing is not going to cut it instead of History or what have you. In states with standardized testing, they will be tested on those core areas so if they don't know them there are additional requirements that must be met to ensure that they do learn them. What I do see is people saying that while Calculus and Chemistry are not necessarily basic classes, if their children are interested or at that level, they will make sure they are able to take those classes.

Just also wanted to point out that many people on this thread who are posting positively about homeschooling are not even homeschoolers themselves so this perceived defensiveness is perhaps not very accurate. Again, if I started a thread asking why someone would subject their children to the boredom of public school and the "social" nightmare of middle school and then attacked anyone who did actually use the public school system, don't you(in general you) think it would bring out some defensiveness?

 

[LadyShiva]

Julie, I think you may have hit on my issue obliquely. You accept religious schools with more equanimity than I do. You linked religious tolerance with primary school, whereas I wouldn't. I would prefer secular education, and any and all education (yes, including the Amish and the cults in Utah, CO, et al) being forcibly required to provide a base education of a certain ability, up to 12th grade.

I don't see religion as a good force when it comes to education. That's why I completely disregarded the book curriculum from Bob Jones University, et al, that (I believe) sha_lyn posted and probed further on lab-based classes.

I think religious institutions take advantage of lesser requirements, and it freaks me out. I don't think I should go into specifics here, except to state that I believe we agreed earlier that religious institutions are exempted from requirements.

I see people partially homeschooling but having to turn to colleges, public schools, etc, to fulfill educational requirements, and that validates these feelings that religious-based homeschooling is lacking.

Does that make sense? I'm really not trying to bash, but I am trying to share my feelings with this post. I fundamentally believe relying on religious texts to teach is wrong. I believe they should be used for character development, but NOT academic development.

Brandie

 

[MushyMushy]

So subjective analysis of a body of work by a student is preferable to testing basic skills at various grades levels?

I agree that tests that utilize essays are much harder than multiple choice tests.

Brandie

Portfolio assessment doesn't have to be subjective, but I can see where it might be in some subjects. If there's a certain standard set, the portfolio can demonstrate those outcomes, as well as show the student's progress over time.

I'm not completely familiar with it myself, so I'm not comfortable discussing it in any great detail, but what I have researched of it, I've come to the conclusion that it is a lot better than standardized testing.

 

[sha_lyn]

It about killed you to put that link in there, didn't it?

You know it did ....LOL

Their color coded rating system of how easy it is to home school in different states kills me.
Al is ranked as one of the easiest (other than those with no regulations) yet they require that you either enroll under a private religious school umbrella or be/hire a certified teacher. For HSLDA that isn't a big deal since they are a Christian organization, but for home schoolers in general it is a huge deal.
HSLDA tends to support laws that strengthen the freedom to HS for religious reason (with a religious curriculum, under the supervision of a religious institute etc) but they do not support laws that allow for HS without the religious overtone.

Quite frankly, I think this over-reliance on standardized testing by the public school system is extremely worrisome and I'm not sure where you get the idea that it's a valid indicator of a good education. Portfolio assessment would be far superior to that, and that's what a lot of states (including mine) use for their homeschoolers.

ITA... Some people are excellent at taking multiple choice test, and can guess and eliminate answers in a way that really doesn't indicate their knowledge. Others don't do well under the pressure of testing. Their overall progress and performance during a year is a much better indicator at what they have been taught and retained.

As she has left, let me reiterate her point. She doesn't understand why homeschoolers do not pressure for education standards in order to help those children receiving inadequate "religious-based" gender-discriminatory schooling.

So, would you mind answering her question? I also would love to know why it is ok to teach sewing instead of basic classes.

Standards... Do you mean standardized testing? See the top part of my post.
As for standards, regulations etc. I personally don't have a problem with a few basic HS laws such as GA has. I do wish that there was an alternative to the testing every 3 years

as for the sew vs basics..... As I said before, those HS'ers have other options such as establishing a religious school. For the most part that small religious element of HS'ers live in isolated mostly self sustaining areas (ie Amish, Mennonite etc farming communities). While I don't agree with their religious philosophies, I stand by their rights to be able to practice their religion. If that includes believing in creationism and discounting advanced science and math, so be it. When we start dictating what one religion can teach, we start the erosion process on the religious freedoms of everyone.

 

[LadyShiva]

Portfolio assessment doesn't have to be subjective, but I can see where it might be in some subjects. If there's a certain standard set, the portfolio can demonstrate those outcomes, as well as show the student's progress over time.

I'm not completely familiar with it myself, so I'm not comfortable discussing it in any great detail, but what I have researched of it, I've come to the conclusion that it is a lot better than standardized testing.

I think in the higher levels, it is appropriate to test certain subjects with essay-based tests. However, essays have to be taught before multiple choice tests can be done away with. There is a lot of rote memorization in education, and I think memorization just needs to be accepted. Even up to Chemistry, Physics, and Biology, memorization has its place.

Part of the reason for standardized tests is the vast amount of material that has to be absorbed. I'd love to see a test with short answer versus multiple choice, but that's just me being a meanie.

Brandie

 

[Crankyshank]

While my elementary and high school (Catholic) does not require the MCAS (Massachusetts Standardized Test), and teachers are not required to have passed the MA teaching exam, I would challenge anyone (based on my example) who claims a religious education is subpar to a public one. I did have to take 4yrs of religion and attend Mass on occasion, but those religion classes were things like: World Religions, Death & Dying, ancient religions, etc..Classes that would behoove students to have knowledge of no matter what their religious affiliation (if any). They were hardly something that brought forth any religious drones.. My high school has rigorous testing and standards to be accepted into the school and to stay in the school. We also took voluntary standardized tests in 3rd, 8th, and 10th grade. Our graduation requirements were actually much stricter than the state requirements. My school prided itself on its academic excellence, as does pretty much every other religious secondary school that I know of in my area.

I spent 1 year at a state University (UMASS Amherst) and have to say my educational experience at a Dominican college is a lot more rigorous and well rounded than what was required of me at the U. It's been often remarked positively by my professors that you can tell, based on my writing skills, that I've come from the private school sector. They are certainly better than my public school educated sister's

 

[LadyShiva]

as for the sew vs basics..... As I said before, those HS'ers have other options such as establishing a religious school. For the most part that small religious element of HS'ers live in isolated mostly self sustaining areas (ie Amish, Mennonite etc farming communities). While I don't agree with their religious philosophies, I stand by their rights to be able to practice their religion. If that includes believing in creationism and discounting advanced science and math, so be it. When we start dictating what one religion can teach, we start the erosion process on the religious freedoms of everyone.

Yup, that's got to be the breakpoint for me. I completely disagree that having standards for primary education will cause a slippery slope to the breakdown of religious tolerance. That just disagrees with so much that makes up me, including my version of spirituality. I think not having standards as a culture, and holding people to basic standards, is a disservice to children.

I'm such a wacko.

Brandie

 

[LadyShiva]

While my elementary and high school (Catholic) does not require the MCAS (Massachusetts Standardized Test), and teachers are not required to have passed the MA teaching exam, I would challenge anyone (based on my example) who claims a religious education is subpar to a public one. I did have to take 4yrs of religion and attend Mass on occasion, but those religion classes were things like: World Religions, Death & Dying, ancient religions, etc..Classes that would behoove students to have knowledge of no matter what their religious affiliation (if any). They were hardly something that brought forth any religious drones.. My high school has rigorous testing and standards to be accepted into the school and to stay in the school. We also took voluntary standardized tests in 3rd, 8th, and 10th grade. Our graduation requirements were actually much stricter than the state requirements. My school prided itself on its academic excellence, as does pretty much every other religious secondary school that I know of in my area.

I spent 1 year at a state University (UMASS Amherst) and have to say my educational experience at a Dominican college is a lot more rigorous and well rounded than what was required of me at the U.

My husband is currently attending Regis University to complete his long-delayed Bachelor's. He's in a Eastern Religions class. More than one of his fellow students are not understanding there's no Jesus in Buddhism.

I had the same experience in my secular "Oh my goodness this school is gonna kill me" high school. Girl actually asked if there was a Jesus in Hinduism.

That, in a nutshell, is my problem with religious-based schooling. A lack of understanding of the world around them. Not everyone comes out oblivious to other cultures, but oh my, the ones that do make my head explode.

Brandie