Hidden college costs?

[MrsPete]

I dare say there a quite a number of kids making the decision where to go to college without considering the overall cost.

Oh, I agree with that; after all, an awful lot of adults today are not really financially saavy. How could their children appreciate the value of being debt-free when their parents have taught them (by example) that you can have what you want today by charging it?

But in a situation like the OP's, where one school makes sense financially and the parent knows it, the parent should be able to show it to the student on paper . . . and the student should be able to understand -- when shown -- that one choice can lead to graduating debt-free and starting her professional life with a clean slate (which is hard enough!), while the other will be harder financially.

I agree with you, eliza...but this is where parents really need to step up their game and TEACH their kids about the realities of money and budgeting.

Too often we shelter our kids from our own budget situations. This is not the time to be secretive.

We made it explicitly clear to our daughter that when it came to college, there were some hard and fast rules regarding the money aspect:

1) The school she chose to attend would require that she graduate with the maximum amount of Stafford Loan debt available for an undergraduate degree: $27,000. There is always a chance that we will be able to help her pay it off, but absolutely no guarantees. She WOULD have skin in the game.

2) Our contribution to her expenses would be ONLY for tuition, room and board. Everything else was on her. She would have to use her own savings and income from summer jobs to pay for books, supplies, and any fun spending money she needed. She would get nothing extra from us...no allowance at all.

3) She received a renewable merit scholarship that requires her to maintain a specific GPA to get that money every year. Her job is to KEEP that scholarship...we do not have extra in our budget to cover that if she loses it, so she needs to keep her grades up to hang on to that funding source.

We didn't just let her 'figure it out' on her own though. We sat down with her and showed her how to take the funds she had and work a budget for her freshman year. We helped her lay out how much she should plan to spend each week for various things, and told her to use that new laptop she got to keep track of every penny she spent in various categories. Every six weeks or so, she'd let us know where her budget was at. At every break, she sat down with us to go over her numbers and see where she could make adjustments. This process turned her into a very smart shopper, always looking for bargains and also giving her the strength to say "no" to extra spending because she knew she had to meet her budget.

She sees the college bills. She knows how much we're spending. And using/managing her OWN money has taught her how much it stinks to see that bank balance go down.

This makes perfect sense to me. We're telling our kids exactly what we can afford to pay, and we're emphasizing the choices that'll lead them to graduating debt-free.

Ah, I'm not sure where you are getting this idea from. U-M is considering "public ivy" and is consistently ranked as one of the best universities in the country.

As a person who has done a lot of hiring, it DID matter where you went to school. Certain universities have much better programs for certain disciplines than others.

No, there are only eight Ivy League schools (wait -- is it 8, or is it 10? I forget), and U-M is not one of them. You're proving my earlier point: People throw around the term "Ivy League" when they really mean "excellent school, among the best in the country".

And your school doesn't matter for every profession. For example, a first-year teacher needs to have earned a teaching license and good references from student teaching. Same for a nurse: Passing the state tests matters more than the school name. An engineer who can talk about having done a good internship will trump another recent graduate from a more prestigious school. Yet in other jobs, just the opposite is true.

 

[jodifla]

Oh, I agree with that; after all, an awful lot of adults today are not really financially saavy. How could their children appreciate the value of being debt-free when their parents have taught them (by example) that you can have what you want today by charging it?

But in a situation like the OP's, where one school makes sense financially and the parent knows it, the parent should be able to show it to the student on paper . . . and the student should be able to understand -- when shown -- that one choice can lead to graduating debt-free and starting her professional life with a clean slate (which is hard enough!), while the other will be harder financially.This makes perfect sense to me. We're telling our kids exactly what we can afford to pay, and we're emphasizing the choices that'll lead them to graduating debt-free.No, there are only eight Ivy League schools (wait -- is it 8, or is it 10? I forget), and U-M is not one of them. You're proving my earlier point: People throw around the term "Ivy League" when they really mean "excellent school, among the best in the country".

And your school doesn't matter for every profession. For example, a first-year teacher needs to have earned a teaching license and good references from student teaching. Same for a nurse: Passing the state tests matters more than the school name. An engineer who can talk about having done a good internship will trump another recent graduate from a more prestigious school. Yet in other jobs, just the opposite is true.

Yes, I know that. The Ivy League schools are private. But "public ivy" was coined to refer to public schools that give an ivy -league education.


From WikiPedia:

Public Ivy is a term coined by Richard Moll in his 1985 book Public Ivies: A Guide to America's best public undergraduate colleges and universities to refer to universities which "provide an Ivy League collegiate experience at a public school price."[1] Public Ivies are considered, according to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, to be capable of "successfully competing with the Ivy League schools in academic rigor... attracting superstar faculty and in competing for the best and brightest students of all races."[2]


The Ivy League schools are all private.

The original eight Public Ivies

The original eight Public Ivies list by Moll (1985):[2]

* College of William & Mary (Williamsburg, Virginia)
* Miami University (Oxford, Ohio)
* University of California (campuses as of 1985)[6]
* University of Michigan (Ann Arbor)
* University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
* University of Texas at Austin
* University of Vermont (Burlington)
* University of Virginia (Charlottesville)

 

[MrsPete]

No doubt. But I think they offer their acceptances based on those they think WON'T deposit by May 1.

My challenge was that LOTS of students do this. I find it hard to believe that there are LOTS of students and parents with money they can afford to throw away on college deposits. Not when I read on boards like College Confidential how many are straining their financial resources to afford school.

Yes, this is true. Colleges know that a certain number of the students who accept a placement will not show up: Someone's counting on financial aid that won't come through, someone will discover that she's pregnant, someone will get an unforseen scholarship from another school, someone will be moved from the wait-list to the accepted list at another school. Yes, things will happen. But these things happen in May, and they happen to 2-3 students per graduating class (we graduate about 350/year from my school). This is not a wide-spread phenomenon.

I'll give an example of a typical situation: One of my students was awarded a very big, prestigious scholarship in LATE MAY. It's the type of scholarship that you don't turn down -- in addition to being a full-ride scholarship, it provides status during colege, it provides a trip to Europe between the sophomore and junior years -- and it's the type that opens doors after graduation. BUT she'd already accepted and paid deposits for College #1, and the scholarship could only be used at College #2. She had her heart set on College #1, and her family couldn't really afford to walk away from the deposits they'd made . . . but it would've been worse to walk away from a full ride at College #2. Taking the scholarship meant that she wouldn't have to take out loans. It just wasn't a choice: She HAD TO take that scholarship, which meant she HAD TO move to College #2. How'd this unusual situation happen? She was initially turned down for the scholarship, but she was an alternate -- someone who was ahead of her lost it for some reason (perhaps his or her final grades weren't quite good enough?). Again, this is not a typical situation. To my knowledge, she's the only graduate from our 2010 class who made such a decision.

Also, we're starting to see colleges accept students for SPRING semester instead of fall semester; that is, colleges know that they're going to lose some students after first semester . . . so they're accepting students to take the place of the expected drop-outs. This isn't a large number, and it tends to be people who were qualified but applied late. It leaves the student in a difficult position: Do they work during the fall semester and save money? Do they do a semester at community college 'til they can go to the university of their choice? Do they choose a different university?

 

[MrsPete]

. . . Public Ivy is a term coined by Richard Moll in his 1985 book Public Ivies: A Guide to America's best public undergraduate colleges and universities to refer to universities which "provide an Ivy League collegiate experience at a public school price."[1] Public Ivies are considered, according to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, to be capable of "successfully competing with the Ivy League schools in academic rigor... attracting superstar faculty and in competing for the best and brightest students of all races . . .

Yes, I've heard of this . . . but one guy coining a term doesn't make these schools into Ivies. They are excellent schools, flagship universities in their state systems, deserving of their own recognition, but they are not Ivy League Schools -- even if a "scholarly source" such as Wikipedia says so. I'm not even saying they aren't as good academically as the traditional Ivy League Schools; I'm just saying that they don't fit into that category!

Note that your quote even disproves itself: How can a school successfully compete with an Ivy League if it IS an Ivy League?

An analogy: It's like saying that you stayed at a fantastic Florida resort with lovely grounds, pools, golf and tennis courts, restaurants, etc., etc., etc. . . . and it happened to be located in Georgia. That resort might be fantastic -- just as good as any in Florida -- but if it's in Georgia, it's not in Florida! Likewise, a school either is one of the eight (is it eight?) Ivies, or it is not. You can't add to a title that's historical.

 

[mistysue]

Ah, I'm not sure where you are getting this idea from. U-M is considered "public ivy" and is consistently ranked as one of the best universities in the country.

As a person who has done a lot of hiring, it DID matter where you went to school. Certain universities have much better programs for certain disciplines than others.

That is great that you pay attention to schools. As a person who has both done a lot of hiring and been hired many times, I can say most people don't know the difference between any schools but a select few they have had personal experience with. If I go out of state and talk about Michigan schools, it is unusual that a person knows the difference between UofM and MSU- yet if you are in Michigan you know they are different. My point was while this may seen like a crisis or critical thing to the OP, she might want to step back and think about whether this is really going to make a change in the future.

Past getting your first job, in most cases your school won't matter. Most employers are more worried about your job performance and real work experience. I personally am thankful that this is how the world is, my crappiest employees have been the ones with the "best" education. It is what you put into it and choose to take out, not where you get it that will make the real difference.

 

[tar heel]

OP -- I think you misunderstood the numbers you were looking at on the website. All universities have fees, and some of them are pretty hefty. For example, at the university my middle son attends, there are five categories of fees required for all students. These cover everything from the athletic program to student organizations to health services to the bus system. In addition, there are 21 additional fees that a student may be required to pay depending on their program or individual classes.

Add to that the fact that even though tuition is due August 18, the tuition and fees listed now on my son's university's website are ESTIMATED fees. They are, in fact, wrong as just this week the Board of Governors raised tuition $450 per year.

 

[Green Tea]

Yes, I know that. The Ivy League schools are private. But "public ivy" was coined to refer to public schools that give an ivy -league education.


From WikiPedia:

Public Ivy is a term coined by Richard Moll in his 1985 book Public Ivies: A Guide to America's best public undergraduate colleges and universities to refer to universities which "provide an Ivy League collegiate experience at a public school price."[1] Public Ivies are considered, according to the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, to be capable of "successfully competing with the Ivy League schools in academic rigor... attracting superstar faculty and in competing for the best and brightest students of all races."[2]


The Ivy League schools are all private.

The original eight Public Ivies

The original eight Public Ivies list by Moll (1985):[2]

* College of William & Mary (Williamsburg, Virginia)
* Miami University (Oxford, Ohio)
* University of California (campuses as of 1985)[6]
* University of Michigan (Ann Arbor)
* University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
* University of Texas at Austin
* University of Vermont (Burlington)
* University of Virginia (Charlottesville)

University of Pennsylvania is in the Ivy League. It is public. Sort of. But private too. It has a complicated funding structure. Private but with some state support.

Top schools that are not in the Ivy League (actually an athletic conference) that are often said to be as high a caliber are Stanford and Duke. There are good public colleges, good private colleges. Rankings in national listings are based on Carnagie classifications. Regional university, liberal arts, large university, etc. Look at the Swathmore, Williams, Washington & Lee, Davidson, Pomona...... various "athletic leagues" but always high on the list of the top colleges in the nation-in the liberal arts classification.

 

[claudia]

Did she accept admission, and a scholarship, at two different schools? I have never, ever heard of someone doing that. I was under the impression once you accept an admission you actually have to notify any other schools and decline their offers.

If someone is on a waiting list they usually accept their second choice admission. Then if they get into the waiting list school, they decline the second choice admission and accept the waiting list admission. But at any given time they've only accepted admission to one school.

You are correct, bluesaturn. If a student accepts two offers of admission that student may find himself or herself with two withdrawn offers of admission.

That is is exactly what I was going to reply.......none of what OP is stating makes any sense....

 

[Green Tea]

The schools are not going to withdraw offers of admission if you double deposit. But you will lose your money at the one you don't attend.

OP: Wasn't the full amount listed of the estimated cost of attendance? Even if it wasn't broken down in the way it is now, thousands of dollars in fees sounds quite surprising to be a surprise.

 

[Sadie22]

If a student accepts two offers of admission that student may find himself or herself with two withdrawn offers of admission.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/20/us/20deposit.html

The above article from the New York Times is from four years ago, but still very relevant.

 

[monsterkitty]

She is also set to play a varsity sport but it seems to me like it is no different than high schools that have pay to play. At this college, you must have 3 credit hours of PE for a degree. If she wants tennis to count we still must pay for the three credit hours she just would play tennis coupled with 500.00 of tickets we must sell I am be blindsided by both.

If I am reading this correctly, your DD is going to play tennis for the school she wants to attend. If she has commited to playing tennis for that school and she has also accepted a scholarship from another school, the NCAA clearinghouse may not like this. Once you commit to a school for a sport there comes into play a whole rule book in regards to eligibility for her and for the team.

Could you please be more specific on this point? I am confused (could be my hair color, though... )

 

[kawing123]

Financial aid packages are not even made final at minn until later. Sometimes one must do this. With the economy the way it is, many universities are clammering just to get enough kids to go away to school communting schools like the two I am talking about are not experiencing a hardship. Anyone waitlisted at an ivy school would most likely forfeit monies paid and go. People waitlisted at other univerisities are probably students at the low end of the admission criteria. People change their minds. This is not a dress or a pair of shoes this is one of the biggest and most expensive committments a young adult will make. Not an impulsive decision. Sometimes circumstances of one individual will be different from another. No need to rush into anything.

 

[Green Tea]

People change their minds. This is not a dress or a pair of shoes this is one of the biggest and most expensive committments a young adult will make. Not an impulsive decision. Sometimes circumstances of one individual will be different from another. No need to rush into anything.

It sounds like your child's mind has been made up. She is more comfortable at the smaller school. You are trying to get her to change her mind.

 

[RNBelle]

Lots of my friends who started my Freshman year of college with me were no longer there at the end of the year. It was our joke that our freshman lot was always prime parking towards the end of the year, because it was always wide open with all of the kids who had withdrawn.

I don't have numbers, but I would assume the freshman drop out/transfer rate is high. The most likely of my friends to drop were the ones who a) were pressured to go to our school by parents/scholarship/boyfriend b) those who were homesick or had a long distance boyfriend and never established a social routine at college because they went home every weekend.

If your daughter wants to go to college and stay there, and enjoy herself-- please let her!

 

[LilyWDW]

Sit down with your daughter and go over all the numbers. Explain to her what it would mean if she picks the more expensive school. Give her options and allow her to make the decision.

I was in a way forced to choose a specific school for my undergrad. I was also pressured into a specific program because I was trying to make everyone else happy. Well, I didn't do so good early on. While I stuck with the same school, I did switch programs so that I would be happy. Once I was happy, my grades showed it. DO NOT pressure her! That will only have negative consequences.

Extra fees ARE normal. Do you have a list of them that you can post? If you already did, I apologize, I did not see it.

 

[Green Tea]

Retention after freshmen year is a great question to ask during the admissions process. Really high? the kids are a happy bunch, found a good fit and the school is meeting their needs. A lot transfer out? Bad match.

Also consider the percentage who attain their degree in 4 years? Smaller schools typically are able to get the students the classes they need to graduate. Larger state universities-not as much. Factor in the costs involved in 5 or 6 years to get an undergrad degree vs. the costs of a school that get someone thru in four.

 

[monsterkitty]

Financial aid packages are not even made final at minn until later. Sometimes one must do this. With the economy the way it is, many universities are clammering just to get enough kids to go away to school communting schools like the two I am talking about are not experiencing a hardship. Anyone waitlisted at an ivy school would most likely forfeit monies paid and go. People waitlisted at other univerisities are probably students at the low end of the admission criteria. People change their minds. This is not a dress or a pair of shoes this is one of the biggest and most expensive committments a young adult will make. Not an impulsive decision. Sometimes circumstances of one individual will be different from another. No need to rush into anything.[/QUOTE]

Ummm..most colleges begin in about a month, give or take a week. There is a lot to do if your daughter hasn't already done everything, such as request housing, select classes, freshman orientation, etc. It is almost late in the game, not "rushing" into anything.

 

[kimara3]

Financial aid packages are not even made final at minn until later. Sometimes one must do this. With the economy the way it is, many universities are clammering just to get enough kids to go away to school communting schools like the two I am talking about are not experiencing a hardship. Anyone waitlisted at an ivy school would most likely forfeit monies paid and go. People waitlisted at other univerisities are probably students at the low end of the admission criteria. People change their minds. This is not a dress or a pair of shoes this is one of the biggest and most expensive committments a young adult will make. Not an impulsive decision. Sometimes circumstances of one individual will be different from another. No need to rush into anything.

Most colleges present the financial aid packages in the spring (April/May) so that students and parents have the opportunity to weigh all the options before the acceptance deadline. After freshman year it may be later, but they know they need to give you that information before you commit. OP I wish your daughter the best in making this tough decision!

 

[bluesaturn]

Financial aid packages are not even made final at minn until later. Sometimes one must do this. With the economy the way it is, many universities are clammering just to get enough kids to go away to school communting schools like the two I am talking about are not experiencing a hardship. Anyone waitlisted at an ivy school would most likely forfeit monies paid and go. People waitlisted at other univerisities are probably students at the low end of the admission criteria. People change their minds. This is not a dress or a pair of shoes this is one of the biggest and most expensive committments a young adult will make. Not an impulsive decision. Sometimes circumstances of one individual will be different from another. No need to rush into anything.

Wait listed students are completely different from what you are describing with your daughter. A wait listed student only accepts for one school. Later if they receive a second admission they can turn down the originally acceptance to pick the wait listed school. But they don't accept for both schools, then make their mind.

Your daughter apparently ACCEPTED admission at two different schools. Is this correct? Or are there 3 schools (I can't tell)? If so, this is likely against the "rules". I remember all kinds of language when I signed my acceptance to undergrad saying that I could only accept admission to one school. I know when I accepted for grad school it explicitly stated that by accepting this admissions offer I MUST decline all other offers.

You're right, commuting schools are hurting much less right now than other universities. Therefore, it seems that they would be even more likely to drop your daughter if they found out she mislead them. There are likely tons of people waiting for her spot.

You're right again, college decisions shouldn't be taken lightly. But the time to decide is not now, one month (or less) before the school starts. I think it's going to lead to more rash decisions then it would have if she decided back in April or May.

 

[bluesaturn]

Financial aid packages are not even made final at minn until later.

Also, does this mean the U of M you referenced is Minnesota?