Help with school note/advice

[cabanafrau]

It's funny how stats are skewed by "American insistence", as if stats are never misused or misunderstood when they're cited to bolster arguments from certain perspectives -- even when there is open admittance one is only interested in their own perspective. I'm also amused that the superior, patronizing and judgmental comments and the discussion that ensued were criticized as ironic. If the same types of comments were emanating from an American voice they would have been decried for what they are, insulting.

Must go and hide under my desk now. I've been told 'tis very dangerous here.

 

[Magpie]

It's funny how stats are skewed by "American insistence", as if stats are never misused or misunderstood when they're cited to bolster arguments from certain perspectives -- even when there is open admittance one is only interested in their own perspective. I'm also amused that the superior, patronizing and judgmental comments and the discussion that ensued were criticized as ironic. If the same types of comments were emanating from an American voice they would have been decried for what they are, insulting.

Must go and hide under my desk now. I've been told 'tis very dangerous here.

Are you quoting me?

Because my use of the phrase "American insistence" was in a sentence that points out that ALL American students get tested and included in the stats, while in other countries, only some students may be tested. Thereby invalidating the stats. Because the US rates LOW on international measures of math and reading, and I actually agree that overall, American students are almost certainly not as bad as the stats would make them look.

I know we've been bickering back and forth recently, but not everything I say is an insult to you or your country. Especially not in a post talking about how cheating is rampant in some NON-American educational systems.

(I think I was probably most insulting to Pakistan, in that last post! Is there anyone here from Pakistan who wants to weigh in?)

 

[Aladora]

My daughter had more than $30k worth of work done on her knee. It cost me less than $100 and the date from injury to survey was less than one month. Most of the wait time was due to needing the swelling to go down.

All in the US.

Does everyone in the US experience what she did? No but I seriously doubt everyone in Canada has the same experience that you son did either.

During my entire pregancy and my son's delivery, the only out of pocket cost was $10 for copies of the ultrasound photos.

During my breast cancer treatment, subsequent bilateral mastectomy, reconstruction and further preventative surgeries after I found out I was BRCA2+, the one and only out of pocket cost was $4 for a bottle of over the counter anti-nausea medication. Every other expense was covered. Chemo, prescription meds, genetic testing, 4 surgeries all covered. I talk to many American women who are or have dealt with breast cancer and I know for a fact that my experience is not what they face. From diagnosis to first surgery was 15 days and that included Christmas Day!

Listen, we pay for our health coverage. Trust me, my tax bill every year emphasizes this! However, no one in Canada has to declare bankruptcy because of medical expenses and no one is turned away from care because they have no insurance. Which is better? I personally feel that our system is a better one but you might feel differently and that is the brilliance of our two countries, we are able to have differing opinions and to express them on a forum like this.

But truly, this is a debate/discussion for another thread!

 

[mjkacmom]

During my entire pregancy and my son's delivery, the only out of pocket cost was $10 for copies of the ultrasound photos.

During my breast cancer treatment, subsequent bilateral mastectomy, reconstruction and further preventative surgeries after I found out I was BRCA2+, the one and only out of pocket cost was $4 for a bottle of over the counter anti-nausea medication. Every other expense was covered. Chemo, prescription meds, genetic testing, 4 surgeries all covered. I talk to many American women who are or have dealt with breast cancer and I know for a fact that my experience is not what they face. From diagnosis to first surgery was 15 days and that included Christmas Day!

Listen, we pay for our health coverage. Trust me, my tax bill every year emphasizes this! However, no one in Canada has to declare bankruptcy because of medical expenses and no one is turned away from care because they have no insurance. Which is better? I personally feel that our system is a better one but you might feel differently and that is the brilliance of our two countries, we are able to have differing opinions and to express them on a forum like this.

But truly, this is a debate/discussion for another thread!

Not saying I love our health insurance (right now we've met our deductible, I can make appointments with any specialist and pay nothing), but I paid zero OOP for the birth of my 5 kids, including monthly u/s with my twins.

 

[jrmasm]

During my entire pregancy and my son's delivery, the only out of pocket cost was $10 for copies of the ultrasound photos.

During my breast cancer treatment, subsequent bilateral mastectomy, reconstruction and further preventative surgeries after I found out I was BRCA2+, the one and only out of pocket cost was $4 for a bottle of over the counter anti-nausea medication. Every other expense was covered. Chemo, prescription meds, genetic testing, 4 surgeries all covered. I talk to many American women who are or have dealt with breast cancer and I know for a fact that my experience is not what they face. From diagnosis to first surgery was 15 days and that included Christmas Day!

Listen, we pay for our health coverage. Trust me, my tax bill every year emphasizes this! However, no one in Canada has to declare bankruptcy because of medical expenses and no one is turned away from care because they have no insurance. Which is better? I personally feel that our system is a better one but you might feel differently and that is the brilliance of our two countries, we are able to have differing opinions and to express them on a forum like this.

But truly, this is a debate/discussion for another thread!

Absolutely. But it is all little tiresome (and has already been covered on this thread ) to hear over and over how terrible it is in the US and how freaking fantastic things are elsewhere, and stated as FACT. Especially when your experience is nothing like what is being described. KWIM?

 

[jrmasm]

Not saying I love our health insurance (right now we've met our deductible, I can make appointments with any specialist and pay nothing), but I paid zero OOP for the birth of my 5 kids, including monthly u/s with my twins.

I didn't pay for my children's birth or my prenatal care either.

 

[SirDuff]

Absolutely. But it is all little tiresome (and has already been covered on this thread ) to hear over and over how terrible it is in the US and how freaking fantastic things are elsewhere, and stated as FACT. Especially when your experience is nothing like what is being described. KWIM?

Given that neither the OECD nor the WHO (or anyone else) feels comfortable saying any country has the best system, I find it amusing that some DISers can! Heck, I work in international comparisons of health care systems (though primarily in low- and middle-income countries now) and we won't publish reports with absolute rankings (though, within these countries there are clear strong versus weak, which isn't as true in high income/developed countries).

 

[leebee]

If you live in the US and are paying "nothing" or minimal cost for health care, you are either in an economic group that is covered by government assistance, or you are paying through your health insurance... premiums, co-pays, deductibles, cost shares. It's not free!

 

[Magpie]

Given that neither the OECD nor the WHO (or anyone else) feels comfortable saying any country has the best system, I find it amusing that some DISers can! Heck, I work in international comparisons of health care systems (though primarily in low- and middle-income countries now) and we won't publish reports with absolute rankings (though, within these countries there are clear strong versus weak, which isn't as true in high income/developed countries).

I may have missed it, but who claimed their country had the "best" system?

I hear the UK has a very good system, but the World Health Organization ranks France first: http://thepatientfactor.com/canadia...zations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/

Since you say WHO is "not comfortable" saying any country has the best system, I am guessing they provided this ranking with a certain amount of discomfort.

(Full disclosure - the report is from 2000.)

 

[Aladora]

Absolutely. But it is all little tiresome (and has already been covered on this thread ) to hear over and over how terrible it is in the US and how freaking fantastic things are elsewhere, and stated as FACT. Especially when your experience is nothing like what is being described. KWIM?

There are facts and there are opinions. The fact is that no one in Canada is going broke paying for health care. There are no deductibles and in most provinces there is no cost other than what is taken off our taxes. (3 of them, Ontario, Alberta and BC have extra premiums but the offset of this is a sliding scale for premiums ranging from $0 to $150 for a family. Not my favourite and I've lived in 2 of those 3 provinces, lucky me!) Health care in Canada is not "free" but it is universal and everyone is entitled to care, regardless of their economic position.

As i said in my previous post, *I* personally feel as though the Canadian system is a better one but I also acknowledge that there are many others (some of them even Canadians, *gasp*) who have a different opinion.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that my experience is nothing like what us being described. Yes, there are sometimes longer than acceptable waits to see specialists but no one goes broke paying for treatment. No one has to put off going to see a doctor because they have no health insurance, although right now where I live there is a serious lack of family doctors but that is a whole other issue!

 

[SirDuff]

I hear the UK has a very good system, but the World Health Organization ranks France first: http://thepatientfactor.com/canadia...zations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/

Since you say WHO is "not comfortable" saying any country has the best system, I am guessing they provided this ranking with a certain amount of discomfort.

(Full disclosure - the report is from 2000.)

They got BLASTED for that report and have not done anything like it since. That report is generally raised as to why they shy away from anything that looks like ranking.

 

[Magpie]

They got BLASTED for that report and have not done anything like it since. That report is generally raised as to why they shy away from anything that looks like ranking.

I did not know that! Thanks for the info - the media is still happily using that report, as late as this year. (Bad media!)

 

[SirDuff]

I did not know that! Thanks for the info - the media is still happily using that report, as late as this year. (Bad media!)

WHO published it, so it is fair game for the media (even if people at the WHO wish the report hadn't been published). Though, frankly, even if the WHO liked the rankings, using rankings from almost two decades are is pretty useless (published in 2000 means that the data were from a few years before that).

Also, I shouldn't be speaking for the WHO as a whole. The people that I work with at the WHO (who come from two or three departments) have major issues with rankings (and the politics surrounding them). They know, of course, that everyone wants ranks/scorecards, so trying to figure out how to do it without trauma. Again, my discussions are not around countries like Canada and US so the areas at the WHO who deal with them may feel differently - though I suspect that, if anything, they are even more adverse, not less (because, let's be honest - US/France/Canada can cause more problems if they don't like the publication than Chad/South Sudan/Nigeria).

If you are interested, I like the OECD Health at a Glance. It is released every two years. It ranks countries (OECD countries) on specific aspects, but doesn't assign an overall rank. Some interesting reading.

 

[jrmasm]

There are facts and there are opinions. The fact is that no one in Canada is going broke paying for health care. There are no deductibles and in most provinces there is no cost other than what is taken off our taxes. (3 of them, Ontario, Alberta and BC but the offset of this is a sliding scale for premiums ranging from $0 to $150 for a family. Not my favourite and I've lived in 2 of those 3 provinces, lucky me!) Health care in Canada is not "free" but it is universal and everyone is entitled to care, regardless of their economic position.

As i said in my previous post, *I* personally feel as though the Canadian system is a better one but I also acknowledge that there are many others (some of them even Canadians, *gasp*) who have a different opinion.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that my experience is nothing like what us being described. Yes, there are sometimes longer than acceptable waits to see specialists but no one goes broke paying for treatment. No one has to put off going to see a doctor because they have no health insurance, although right now where I live there is a serious lack of family doctors but that is a whole other issue!

I wasn't clear. MY experience is nothing like stories thrown around about how terrible the US healthcare system is. And as I said to another poster, I acknowledge that my experience isn't the same as all other Americans. Just as your experience being able to gain the care you needed in a timely manner isn't the same experience for all Canadians.

So we're back to where we started.

 

[cabanafrau]

Are you quoting me?

Because my use of the phrase "American insistence" was in a sentence that points out that ALL American students get tested and included in the stats, while in other countries, only some students may be tested. Thereby invalidating the stats. Because the US rates LOW on international measures of math and reading, and I actually agree that overall, American students are almost certainly not as bad as the stats would make them look.

I know we've been bickering back and forth recently, but not everything I say is an insult to you or your country. Especially not in a post talking about how cheating is rampant in some NON-American educational systems.

(I think I was probably most insulting to Pakistan, in that last post! Is there anyone here from Pakistan who wants to weigh in?)

Oh, I'm certain the comment about your mother probably not surviving if she hadn't left America wasn't in the least meant to be insulting. That's just a single taste of the gems you've sprinkled throughout this thread alone. Unlike you, I'm not most interested simply in my own perspective, although I did find that comment especially telling.

 

[Magpie]

.

WHO published it, so it is fair game for the media (even if people at the WHO wish the report hadn't been published). Though, frankly, even if the WHO liked the rankings, using rankings from almost two decades are is pretty useless (published in 2000 means that the data were from a few years before that).

Also, I shouldn't be speaking for the WHO as a whole. The people that I work with at the WHO (who come from two or three departments) have major issues with rankings (and the politics surrounding them). They know, of course, that everyone wants ranks/scorecards, so trying to figure out how to do it without trauma. Again, my discussions are not around countries like Canada and US so the areas at the WHO who deal with them may feel differently - though I suspect that, if anything, they are even more adverse, not less (because, let's be honest - US/France/Canada can cause more problems if they don't like the publication than Chad/South Sudan/Nigeria).

If you are interested, I like the OECD Health at a Glance. It is released every two years. It ranks countries (OECD countries) on specific aspects, but doesn't assign an overall rank. Some interesting reading.

Yes, I am interested!! Thank you for the recommendation.

This looks like really interesting stuff, in case anyone else wants to check it out. There's links to reports on quite a few different countries (including the US and Canada).

http://www.oecd.org/health/health-systems/health-at-a-glance-19991312.htm

 

[Magpie]

Oh, I'm certain the comment about your mother probably not surviving if she hadn't left America wasn't in the least meant to be insulting. That's just a single taste of the gems you've sprinkled throughout this thread alone. Unlike you, I'm not most interested simply in my own perspective, although I did find that comment especially telling.

But, it's true!

I'm not going to get into the specifics of my mum's medical woes, but I will say that she was a single mother working several jobs to keep a roof over our head. She was uninsured. Her life was saved due to something that was found during a regular checkup (which she got every year, since it cost her nothing).

If she'd been living in the US at that time, she would NOT have gotten regular yearly check ups. Her condition (which was not causing obvious symptoms) would not have been found until much later. She would have died.

There's much she prefers about the US, and I think she does regret leaving. She often criticizes Canada. But, this is the one thing she'll give this country - the health care system here saved her life.

 

[Hikergirl]

If you take kids out during the school year, own that.

 

[Nancyg56]

But, it's true!

I'm not going to get into the specifics of my mum's medical woes, but I will say that she was a single mother working several jobs to keep a roof over our head. She was uninsured. Her life was saved due to something that was found during a regular checkup (which she got every year, since it cost her nothing).

If she'd been living in the US at that time, she would NOT have gotten regular yearly check ups. Her condition (which was not causing obvious symptoms) would not have been found until much later. She would have died.

There's much she prefers about the US, and I think she does regret leaving. She often criticizes Canada. But, this is the one thing she'll give this country - the health care system here saved her life.

Have you paid any attention to the fact that things have changed quite a bit since your Mom left? I also can look back and discuss those old day....I had three children and was widowed. No insurance becuase I could not buy into a plan. I paid everything OOP. But that was then. You cannot cite what used to be as a reason to compare notes. I will admit we have a long way to go, but there is no perfect system anywhere. For all the benefits your system may seem to have, I would not change it for the insurance DH and I have in place.

 

[Magpie]

Have you paid any attention to the fact that things have changed quite a bit since your Mom left? I also can look back and discuss those old day....I had three children and was widowed. No insurance becuase I could not buy into a plan. I paid everything OOP. But that was then. You cannot cite what used to be as a reason to compare notes. I will admit we have a long way to go, but there is no perfect system anywhere. For all the benefits your system may seem to have, I would not change it for the insurance DH and I have in place.

So, in your opinion, has the new health plan really helped for the better? I've been hearing mostly critical commentary from US news sources, who seem to be saying that it's only made things worse. But, I know how unreliable they can be! If things are actually improving, that's fantastic.

I do agree that there is no perfect system anywhere. And we also have improvements we need to make.

And, just like you, I would not trade my gov't health insurance for your private one. I'm grumpy enough as it is about having to pay deductibles for my family's dental care, and keep an eye on yearly caps and other such insurance nonsense. I really, really wish this country had the same system in place for dental and eye care, that it has for general medical care. Oh... and more gov't coverage for prescription meds would be nice, too (although I do appreciate the private coverage we have, as well as the gov'ts efforts to keep prices low).

BTW, the OECD stats have been really interesting to look at - the US is a world leader in cancer care, but your life expectancy at birth is awful and you're almost off the chart when it comes to obesity. Canada has decent life expectancy, but only "good" cancer care - with notably lower survival rates compared to the US - and obesity is also a serious issue. Thanks to @SirDuff for recommending them!