Help with school note/advice

[Magpie]

One thing I have noticed lately is the cultural issues posters resort to when they backgrounds or experience differs from what those here is the States are sharing. From Airlines to uncaring parents to healthcare and education, it turns into "mine is better than yours", and I find that a bit offensive. Your statement that the way a poster phrased her statement about "hundreds" of parents suggested that she lived in a terrible environment, so much more "rough" than your own, is naïve. My sister is a respiratory therapist and she will often phrase things differently than I. My niece is a State Trooper. She definitely has a different experience that mine and yours, and the way she phrases things is different as well, ...and BTW...she deals with the border patrol and her assessment of your Candy Land description would differ greatly than yours. You see......she deals with an segment of "your" citizens who probably do not darken your door, buthtey exist, and the numbers she would flatly say she has observed or dealt with would sink your argument like a rock. It's all about experiences.

I agree, experiences do colour our view of things. Also, stats.

 

[cabanafrau]

I'm talking about your statement that you've dealt with "hundreds" of parents who don't care about their kids. You make it sound almost routine. Unless you define "care" differently, I think you must live in a much worse environment than we do. Most parents here care. Does that mean they're capable? Not necessarily, but it gives social workers a place to start.

And no - I would never argue that kids should wait forever for their parents to pull it together. Obviously, though the system tries very hard not to get to that point - termination of parental rights is sometimes the best option for the child.

By the way, I'm not in any way saying that we don't have our own issues. Back in the 80's, we got very lazy about vetting foster care parents, which resulted in some children being abused while in care. Some of the resulting lawsuits are still working their way through the system.

(Edit: typo)

If your friend the family law lawyer works extensively within the abuse and neglect caseload, I'm sure they've seen hundreds of cases where you are too. I did work in that area of the system almost exclusively for several years, that's why I saw so much of it. People who work in that arena are very committed, dedicated -- and can easily burn out.

As far as what you're suggesting about parents caring/not caring. I'd suggest the issues where you are aren't much different than here. I think if you were involved on a face to face level for even a short while you'd come to a very different understanding of exactly what I'm talking about. It's very rare to hear a parent tell you they don't care -- verbally. When you see them repeatedly not attempting to take any steps to address the issue you begin to realize that what they do or do not do becomes much more important many times than what they say.

 

[Magpie]

You might want to be consistent with what you believe. Earlier on this page you claimed neglectful parents in Canada care about their kids.

My point is the very nature of neglect is not caring.

We're defining "caring" differently. In my experience, people can care deeply and still screw up and do damage to the people they love. The fact that they've screwed up doesn't mean they don't care. The fact that (most) do care actually gives us a place to start from, with regards to helping families in distress.

What I'm agreeing with - and I've been quite consistent from the start - is that every country has neglected and abused children.

Whether they have the same rates of abuse and neglect is another issue altogether, and I would assume that not only do they not have the same rates, but the nature of abuse will vary according to the local culture. Populations under stress (economic, social, war, pollution, lead in the water, etc...) will naturally have higher rates of child abuse.

 

[SirDuff]

Decided that we were way, way off topic.

 

[Nancyg56]

We're defining "caring" differently. In my experience, people can care deeply and still screw up and do damage to the people they love. The fact that they've screwed up doesn't mean they don't care. The fact that (most) do care actually gives us a place to start from, with regards to helping families in distress.

What I'm agreeing with - and I've been quite consistent from the start - is that every country has neglected and abused children.

Whether they have the same rates of abuse and neglect is another issue altogether, and I would assume that not only do they not have the same rates, but the nature of abuse will vary according to the local culture. Populations under stress (economic, social, war, pollution, lead in the water, etc...) will naturally have higher rates of child abuse.

We have very different definitions of what a caring parent is. A caring parent can screw up one time, but when time and again they make the same "mistake" I think we need to decide that they do to care. They want to perhaps, but just do not cross the line from neglect to caring. Not in my book.

 

[Magpie]

If your friend the family law lawyer works extensively within the abuse and neglect caseload, I'm sure they've seen hundreds of cases where you are too. I did work in that area of the system almost exclusively for several years, that's why I saw so much of it. People who work in that arena are very committed, dedicated -- and can easily burn out.

As far as what you're suggesting about parents caring/not caring. I'd suggest the issues where you are aren't much different than here. I think if you were involved on a face to face level for even a short while you'd come to a very different understanding of exactly what I'm talking about. It's very rare to hear a parent tell you they don't care -- verbally. When you see them repeatedly not attempting to take any steps to address the issue you begin to realize that what they do or do not do becomes much more important many times than what they say.

I do agree that I would have a different view, if I were in your shoes. I was thinking about that recently, while talking to a police officer I know. He sees the worst of people... and as a result tends to assume the worst about the people he meets. He was lamenting the loss of stop-and-frisk here, because in his mind, if he thinks you look suspicious, he should be able to stop you without any other reason. His view is based on experience. And, he reminded me, in a way, of a psychiatrist I knew whose bread-and-butter was working with kids with ADD. She had a tendency to see undiagnosed ADD traits everywhere she looked. Her view was based on experience, too.

Honestly, I don't know for sure what the truth is - my view, your view, anyone's view. I personally prefer my perspective, and I do find the stats interesting.

 

[cabanafrau]

Because Canada is a much, much smaller country. We have 35 million people. You have 318 million people!

And correspondingly many more universities to choose from.

Yes, you're right, our medical insurance system IS definitely superior. When my teenage son cut the tip of his thumb off, my only out-of-pocket expense was the cab ride over to the Emergency room to get it sewn back on. Plus, prescription painkillers from the pharmacy (which was under 20 dollars, as I recall). We were in and out in less than an hour. It's amazing how fast you get seen when you're spurting blood everywhere! Also, he could bring his prescription painkillers to school in his lunchbox and take them when needed - no zero-tolerance drug policies here.

Which isn't to say I don't think we should have a prescription drug policy like the UK has, where almost all drugs are covered. Canada's medical insurance system is good, but it should definitely be even better!

And, the fact remains that if I need to see a specialist for some obscure disease, I'm much more likely to find that person in the States. (See above - population!) If I'm very lucky - my provincial health insurance will pay to send me to him (but that's not guaranteed, and the uncertainty around "orphan diseases" is another major issue here).

It's funny how your lower population numbers don't factor into your estimates of neglected children being so much lower than ours.

Funny thing is, living here a stone's throw from a major Canadian/U.S. border crossing, how often it is that I've run across Canadians in the waiting rooms over the years at routine medical appts in mine and my mother's general practice physicians and in the pediatrician's office when my children were growing up. I also ran into a wall of them the last two times I went into the eye doctor -- I don't think that's a particularly specialized area of practice either. Clearly my personal experience belies and undercuts what you suggest is an absolute.

 

[Nancyg56]

I do agree that I would have a different view, if I were in your shoes. I was thinking about that recently, while talking to a police officer I know. He sees the worst of people... and as a result tends to assume the worst about the people he meets. He was lamenting the loss of stop-and-frisk here, because in his mind, if he thinks you look suspicious, he should be able to stop you without any other reason. His view is based on experience. And, he reminded me, in a way, of a psychiatrist I knew whose bread-and-butter was working with kids with ADD. She had a tendency to see undiagnosed ADD traits everywhere she looked. Her view was based on experience, too.

Honestly, I don't know for sure what the truth is - my view, your view, anyone's view. I personally prefer my perspective, and I do find the stats interesting.

Unless you are in the middle of any environment you have no idea what is really happening. And you really need to be willing to hear unpleasant or pleasant truths. I went for years believing I lived in my own Utopia. My town is awesome, but until I was faced with some very real unpleasantries, I had no idea how one segment of our first responders were being treated, and then made it my business to make changes. That meant forcing citizens of our town to face realities that they had not wanted to see, and that had been buried deeply. You see, we all are in the same boat. Our neighbors may not be as they seem Selectmen and Commissioners may have hidden agendas. And Stats are only as good as what is posted. Turns out there was crime in my perfect little town......but as a town, not many knew that. I would not be as sure as you that your crime rates are as low as you want them to be, or that your children who are neglected and who are known within your system is as low as your lawyer insisted they were.

 

[Magpie]

Clearly my personal experience belies and undercuts what you suggest is an absolute.

Clearly!

"Myth #1: Canadians are flocking to the United States to get medical care."

http://www.aarp.org/politics-society/government-elections/info-03-2012/myths-canada-health-care.html

"The first myth Carroll takes on is the oft-heard one about Canadians supposedly "flocking" to the U.S. to get medical care. An eye-popping pie chart, generated by peer-reviewed journal "Health Affairs," shows only a tiny sliver of Canadains heading south for care - less than 1%."

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/myths-about-canada-us-health-care-debunked-2012-08-09

Medical tourism IS up in Canada: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/winds...utside-canada-fraser-institute-says-1.2997726 (about 1% actually!)

But, to be fair, it's also up in the US: https://www.health-tourism.com/medical-tourism/usa-research/ 1.25 million Americans went abroad for medical treatment in 2014!

 

[Nancyg56]

I agree, experiences do colour our view of things. Also, stats.

And Stats are only as good as the data submitted.

 

[Magpie]

Unless you are in the middle of any environment you have no idea what is really happening. And you really need to be willing to hear unpleasant or pleasant truths. I went for years believing I lived in my own Utopia. My town is awesome, but until I was faced with some very real unpleasantries, I had no idea how one segment of our first responders were being treated, and then made it my business to make changes. That meant forcing citizens of our town to face realities that they had not wanted to see, and that had been buried deeply. You see, we all are in the same boat. Our neighbors may not be as they seem Selectmen and Commissioners may have hidden agendas. And Stats are only as good as what is posted. Turns out there was crime in my perfect little town......but as a town, not many knew that. I would not be as sure as you that your crime rates are as low as you want them to be, or that your children who are neglected and who are known within your system is as low as your lawyer insisted they were.

That's fantastic!

One of the problems is, being in the middle of that environment can also warp your perspective of the larger environment you live in. I try to stay very aware of this, myself, in my own work. One thing I found very helpful, by the way, was seeing a live map of my city, which showed where police responses happened, as they happened, and indicated what kind of (reported) offense they were responding to. It was very eye opening, and surprisingly reassuring.

Yes, crime happens. But we're definitely not having a crime wave, at least locally.

 

[cabanafrau]

Clearly!

"Myth #1: Canadians are flocking to the United States to get medical care."

http://www.aarp.org/politics-society/government-elections/info-03-2012/myths-canada-health-care.html

"The first myth Carroll takes on is the oft-heard one about Canadians supposedly "flocking" to the U.S. to get medical care. An eye-popping pie chart, generated by peer-reviewed journal "Health Affairs," shows only a tiny sliver of Canadains heading south for care - less than 1%."

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/myths-about-canada-us-health-care-debunked-2012-08-09

Medical tourism IS up in Canada: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/winds...utside-canada-fraser-institute-says-1.2997726 (about 1% actually!)

But, to be fair, it's also up in the US: https://www.health-tourism.com/medical-tourism/usa-research/ 1.25 million Americans went abroad for medical treatment in 2014!

So I'm seeing mythical Canadians at the doctors -- and have been for years?

I wonder, do I seek treatment for that in the U.S. or Canada?

 

[Magpie]

And Stats are only as good as the data submitted.

Most of the stats I posted above come from the CIA World Factbook.

By the way, this is seriously a fun site to browse: https://www.ifitweremyhome.com/ You can compare your home to any country in the world, and every stat is linked so you can judge for yourself whether you trust the source.

 

[Magpie]

So I'm seeing mythical Canadians at the doctors -- and have been for years?

I wonder, do I seek treatment for that in the U.S. or Canada?

According to this, you're seeing the 1 percent.

I'm guessing border towns have a lot of them!

 

[EMom]

As a Texan, I am beginning to be thankful for the fact that we border Mexico and not Canada. This never-ending, trying-too-hard, sugary sweet, Snow White-esque "my country is soooooo much better than yours" blather grew tiresome long ago and was never authentic. I will say, I realize not all Canadians are like that.

 

[cabanafrau]

As a Texan, I am beginning to be thankful for the fact that we border Mexico and not Canada. This never-ending, trying-too-hard, sugary sweet, Snow White-esque "my country is soooooo much better than yours" blather grew tiresome long ago and was never authentic. I will say, I realize not all Canadians are like that.

That's not my real life experience with Canadians at all. We enjoy heading over the border and having dinner or taking a short vacation. They also do quite a bit of shopping in our area (despite our rampant crime and gun violence). At least I thought they did -- they may be another myth I've built up in my mind like the one's in the doctor's waiting rooms I've been imagining for years. I really gotta figure out where I get that checked.

 

[EMom]

That's not my real life experience with Canadians at all. We enjoy heading over the border and having dinner or taking a short vacation. They also do quite a bit of shopping in our area (despite our rampant crime and gun violence). At least I thought they did -- they may be another myth I've built up in my mind like the one's in the doctor's waiting rooms I've been imagining for years. I really gotta figure out where I get that checked.

I agree. I've met a lot of very pleasant Canadians over the years. Some are just very vocal. You always hear about Ugly Americans, but I suppose every country has their version.

 

[EMom]

Above you express sorrow and worry because I must live in a "rough" area.



You follow that up with what you've learned anecdotally from a friend who works in family law in your area, dealing with cases of parental neglect. Based on what you then go on to say about the causes behind the parental neglect in your area I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest you live in a similarly rough environ to my own and not in some Lake Wobegon atmosphere as so many of the Canadian posters have been attempting to suggest lately.

Do some of the addicted or mentally ill parents love their children yet neglect them? Yes. For many they are sadly unable to use that love to help them work at treatment at all so they can resume caring for their children properly. If they will not even work at treatment there is no hope of sending kids home to that situation. Kids cannot sit in a state of suspended animation indefinitely in the hopes their parent will pull it together.

Yes, talk is cheap. So cheap as to be meaningless. Actions are what matter. I've said it before...You cannot push "pause" on a kid while you take forever to get your act together. They need parents to PARENT all the time and to do a decent job of it. They deserve that.

 

[cabanafrau]

Yes, talk is cheap. So cheap as to be meaningless. Actions are what matter. I've said it before...You cannot push "pause" on a kid while you take forever to get your act together. They need parents to PARENT all the time and to do a decent job of it. They deserve that.

Amen!

 

[grnflash]

Because Canada is a much, much smaller country. We have 35 million people. You have 318 million people!

And correspondingly many more universities to choose from.

The PP asked why so many Canadian students come here and population is the answer? 'Cause California has the same population as Canada and has 4 universities ranked in the top 10 in the world (and all but one are public), yet Canada has none. Maybe, just maybe, the answer isn't population but an overall superior university system? Maybe not, maybe Canada is just superior in every way.

Some of the stats you cite as well are unreliable (US medical tourism in particular), and drawing broad conclusions from isolated, anecdotal sources is almost always unreliable.

Do I personally believe Canada may have a lower incidence of child neglect. I do. Canada's "skill set" is different than that of the US. And having that better skill, fewer neglected children, is a great, great thing. Perhaps it's not until adulthood that Canada's skill set begins to fail. Idk. But if we're going on stats (which is not wise if said stats are not investigated), then it is a stat that over 2x more Canadian citizens emmigrate to the US than the reverse (US citizens emmigrating to Canada.) And the stat only includes actual immigrants, not those living in another country on work or school visas. Further, the stat is based on raw numbers, not percentages - which makes the Canada to US immigration difference even larger since the US population is almost 10x greater.

My point here isn't in any way to knock Canada, I think it's a great country with a different, sometimes enviable, skill set. But your selected stats don't paint the whole picture.

And I noticed you didn't include this one citing the US having the 10th best quality of life thus far this year with Canada at 15, equally as unreliable as it may be.

https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp