help - what am I doing wrong - printing 8x10 images

[DVC Jen]

OK let me see if I am understanding what everyone is saying. Shoot with alot of extra space around the main focal point or "model" to allow for cropping when you print?

Also it was mentioned that one could actually crop or ?resize? the photo to a 5x7 and then it could be printed out after uploaded to mpix or a similar site as an 8x10?

I understand about just buying a larger frame and having it matted - BUT I have started to have quite a few people asking me to do portraits of their children and they aren't going to want to go to the added work of finding a large frame and having a mat put in it to accept an 8x12 inch print. They are going to want the 8x10 that they have requested.

Am I going to have to go to a full sized sensor of an expensive dslr in order to get these common print sizes?

My youngest daughter was just photographed with her dance studio. The photographer was using a Nikon - D80 I think and I ordered an 8x10 of that - as well as 2 5x7's and a few wallets. They all look the same when they come - they do not have different cropping. THAT is what I want to be able to do. I just don't know how and it is frustrating the heck out of me.

*I* personally can live with a 5x7 or even 4x6 of most of the prints I take for my personal use and of my own family - but if I want to get into doing portraits even on a very small informal basis - I want to be able to give people what they want.

Can anyone tell me exactly how to do that?

 

[MICKEY88]

OK let me see if I am understanding what everyone is saying. Shoot with alot of extra space around the main focal point or "model" to allow for cropping when you print?

Also it was mentioned that one could actually crop or ?resize? the photo to a 5x7 and then it could be printed out after uploaded to mpix or a similar site as an 8x10?

I understand about just buying a larger frame and having it matted - BUT I have started to have quite a few people asking me to do portraits of their children and they aren't going to want to go to the added work of finding a large frame and having a mat put in it to accept an 8x12 inch print. They are going to want the 8x10 that they have requested.

Am I going to have to go to a full sized sensor of an expensive dslr in order to get these common print sizes?

My youngest daughter was just photographed with her dance studio. The photographer was using a Nikon - D80 I think and I ordered an 8x10 of that - as well as 2 5x7's and a few wallets. They all look the same when they come - they do not have different cropping. THAT is what I want to be able to do. I just don't know how and it is frustrating the heck out of me.

*I* personally can live with a 5x7 or even 4x6 of most of the prints I take for my personal use and of my own family - but if I want to get into doing portraits even on a very small informal basis - I want to be able to give people what they want.

Can anyone tell me exactly how to do that?

odds are if you look really closely at the dance pics they are slightly different.

cropping to 5x7 and printing 8x10 wouldn't really be any better than cropping to 8x10 to start.


I would try adding frames then cropping. I've uses a plain black frame that way even adding 2 or more frames outside the image you can crop out the frame and it looks like a black border on your print, white would also work...

if you can't do that easily with your software I'd be more than happy to do it for you if you want to email me the file..

 

[0bli0]

Jennifer - if you want to keep the full you can definitely add some of the dark colour on the right of the photo to extend it.

personally, i'd recommend having a go at cropping from the top of the head instead of the bottom of the photo. try some crops yourself and you can also experiment with the addition of the dark space. most of the portraits parents tend to buy from us (and the ones i usually print of my kids) are cropped in so the eyes are about 2/3 of the way to the top and the face (and cropped head) takes up half of the height of the photo or more. obviously it depends on the style of shot your'e looking to do. the slightly more body than headshot photos are just prety popular.

the photo you're looking to print is an excellent shot and i think you'd have several options for crops.

 

[photo_chick]

I tend to shoot for cropping, especially if it is for someone else. I tend to try and leave a tad on one end of the long side to chop off later, not that I am very successful at it... I usually leave too much!

Another thing you can do.... print it in its own aspect ratio on an 11x14 sheet, you choose the size border you want. That way you get a standard sized print in the end. You can either leave the white border, or cut a mat for it.

 

[photo_chick]

anwer to this in my other post...

I've always thought the ideal viewfinder would have very faint lines showing framing for various size prints...LOL

My DD's APS camera has registration marks for panoramic and 4x6 photos in it, you would think they could do this for a DSLR!

 

[Anewman]

OK let me see if I am understanding what everyone is saying. Shoot with alot of extra space around the main focal point or "model" to allow for cropping when you print?

I for one am not saying that, IMO it really would not require "a lot" of extra space and it surely is not ALL around the subject.


You asked what pros might do...
If they WANT SALES they will make sure they can get good 8x10s and pretty much all print sizes, one way of doing this is to frame a bit loose. nobody is forcing anyone.

But the FACT remains that if you want to print at 8x10 from a 3/2 sensor you must either CROP or distort the image.

Also it was mentioned that one could actually crop or ?resize? the photo to a 5x7 and then it could be printed out after uploaded to mpix or a similar site as an 8x10?

To print at 5x7 you would need to crop, and then crop again to get to 8x10. The Crop required to print at 5x7 is a bit less than the crop required for 8x10, but they are not the same aspect ratio. I would not recommend stretching or distorting the image to fit into a different aspect ratio.

I understand about just buying a larger frame and having it matted - BUT I have started to have quite a few people asking me to do portraits of their children and they aren't going to want to go to the added work of finding a large frame and having a mat put in it to accept an 8x12 inch print. They are going to want the 8x10 that they have requested.

If the customer wants 8x10 the customer wants 8x10, the ball is in the photographers court.

Am I going to have to go to a full sized sensor of an expensive dslr in order to get these common print sizes?

I believe Full framed sensors are also 3/2 ratio.

There is not a single size sensor that would cover ALL common Print sizes.
3/2 does a pretty good job covering todays most used sizes such as 4x6, 8x12, 12x18 and 20x30 with no crop at all. If they created a sensor to match the 8x10 print, it would then not match any of the other sizes.

My youngest daughter was just photographed with her dance studio. The photographer was using a Nikon - D80 I think and I ordered an 8x10 of that - as well as 2 5x7's and a few wallets. They all look the same when they come - they do not have different cropping. THAT is what I want to be able to do. I just don't know how and it is frustrating the heck out of me.

The crop between 8x10 and 5x7 is very minor, but they are different. And neither match the native sensor size so they were both cropped from the original shot.

It sounds like the photographer took cropping into consideration when he/she framed the shot.

*I* personally can live with a 5x7 or even 4x6 of most of the prints I take for my personal use and of my own family - but if I want to get into doing portraits even on a very small informal basis - I want to be able to give people what they want.

Can anyone tell me exactly how to do that?

 

[MICKEY88]

*I* personally can live with a 5x7 or even 4x6 of most of the prints I take for my personal use and of my own family - but if I want to get into doing portraits even on a very small informal basis - I want to be able to give people what they want.

Can anyone tell me exactly how to do that?

your camera is fine, no need to upgrade, the trick is to leave room for cropping... if you really want a tight closeup of a face you can do that with your cropping after taking the pic.

here are a few samples of my framing idea..

 

[MarkBarbieri]

Here is an chart showing some common aspect ratios:

It's from an article on aspect ratios at http://johncornicello.com/articles/aspectratio.html

i would also throw 16:9 in as a common aspect ratio for situations when you want to display full frame on a modern TV.

If you are going to shoot a lot of potraits, you're just going to have to learn to leave room at the top and/or bottom to give you the flexilibity to print different aspect ratios.

Am I going to have to go to a full sized sensor of an expensive dslr in order to get these common print sizes?

A more expensive camera won't solve this problem for you. The aspect ratios are just different and no single photo taken with any sensor fixes that problem.

If you want better portraits, don't upgrade your camera. Upgrade your lighting equipment. A well lit portrait taken with a $300 p&s will almost always look much better than a poorly lit picture taken with $10,000 worth of camera and lenses. When I say lighting equipment, that doesn't have to mean lots of expensive studio lights either. You can do a lot with windows and reflectors as well.

FWIW, this is a problem for movies as well. A typical movie is shot with a much wider aspect ratio than an old TV. Most are even wider than modern TVs. When they put a movie on TV, they either have to put black bars across the top and bottom or they have to crop the entire movie. Because the action takes place in different parts of the picture, they have to crop each scene differently. With DVD's, they sometimes give you the choice of a cropped version and a non (or lightly) cropped version. Ironically, they call the cropped version "full frame".

For even more trivia, some computer animated movies don't get cropped for the "full frame" version. Sometimes they just use the computer to generate the parts of the picture that would be covered with the black bars. I think this was first done with A Bug's Life.

 

[DVC Jen]

OK - I am not going to let myself get frustrated by this. I can do it! I just have to practice on setting up the shots correctly and allowing space for cropping... and then learn more about and become better at this cropping stuff. I also want to learn a lot more about lighting.

I will make it my summer challenge since I am a teacher and have summers off.

Now - should I warn my kids and their friends or just torture the heck out of them when they are least expecting it?

 

[MarkBarbieri]

Just keep a stack of chocolate bars on hand. Most people are much more compliant in situations that invovle chocolate.

 

[DVC Jen]

Just keep a stack of chocolate bars on hand. Most people are much more compliant in situations that invovle chocolate.

for my oldest that would work - my youngest however - hates chocolate.

I don't get it either. I would say I found her under a cabbage leaf, but she looks just like me.

 

[Steve's Girl]

I agree with what others have already said - the most important thing is to compose the shot to allow for cropping. However, I sometimes find myself spending so much time trying to compose that I miss some really great natural photos of my kids. The one I recently printed in an 8X12 was after I was done with the kids' posed photos and they all kind of relaxed and looked really natural. I wasn't really ready to take the photo, but I couldn't say to three kids "hold that pose!" I just clicked and got what I could. In the end, I liked that one best. It wasn't composed perfect, but it looked natural, it reflected their personalities. So, I'm upset that I didn't compose properly, but I'm also pleased that I got that photo. So, I had to print it in an odd size, at least I got it! And the only reason I knew about 8X12 size is that a local photographer that we went to a few years ago did the same thing and I loved the photo and bought the 8X12 without even hesitating.

So, I guess I am saying don't spend so much time worrying about composition that you miss the moment!

 

[DVC Jen]

I agree with what others have already said - the most important thing is to compose the shot to allow for cropping. However, I sometimes find myself spending so much time trying to compose that I miss some really great natural photos of my kids. The one I recently printed in an 8X12 was after I was done with the kids' posed photos and they all kind of relaxed and looked really natural. I wasn't really ready to take the photo, but I couldn't say to three kids "hold that pose!" I just clicked and got what I could. In the end, I liked that one best. It wasn't composed perfect, but it looked natural, it reflected their personalities. So, I'm upset that I didn't compose properly, but I'm also pleased that I got that photo. So, I had to print it in an odd size, at least I got it! And the only reason I knew about 8X12 size is that a local photographer that we went to a few years ago did the same thing and I loved the photo and bought the 8X12 without even hesitating.

So, I guess I am saying don't spend so much time worrying about composition that you miss the moment!

great advice!

I am mostly referring to when i am doing portraits for someone else and not myself (which I am doing more and more of).

I haven't charged anyone for my work yet and I just don't feel comfortable doing so until *I* am 100% happy and confident in my abilities. They only pay the cost and shipping of the prints. Right now everyone I have taken portraits for knows I am brand spanking new to this photography thing and learning a lot. So I don't promise anything - but me doing my best for them. I can see improvement from session to session and I am very happy with that. I can see what I have done wrong (for the most part) and I am working on fixing these things.

I have just been frustrated when someone has really liked a shot I have taken and when I go to order the print from mpix for them in an 8x10 format it ends up being cropped to the point of where neither one of us likes it anymore.

So - that is my summer project - learn how to set up the photo so I can crop it to fit an 8x10 format and still be something someone would want.

THEN when I get that mastered and get my lighting issues corrected - I can start charging a small fee - for my time at least.

 

[MICKEY88]

I agree with what others have already said - the most important thing is to compose the shot to allow for cropping. However, I sometimes find myself spending so much time trying to compose that I miss some really great natural photos of my kids. The one I recently printed in an 8X12 was after I was done with the kids' posed photos and they all kind of relaxed and looked really natural. I wasn't really ready to take the photo, but I couldn't say to three kids "hold that pose!" I just clicked and got what I could. In the end, I liked that one best. It wasn't composed perfect, but it looked natural, it reflected their personalities. So, I'm upset that I didn't compose properly, but I'm also pleased that I got that photo. So, I had to print it in an odd size, at least I got it! And the only reason I knew about 8X12 size is that a local photographer that we went to a few years ago did the same thing and I loved the photo and bought the 8X12 without even hesitating.

So, I guess I am saying don't spend so much time worrying about composition that you miss the moment!

the key is to simply leave extra space when shooting, one way to do that if using a zoom, is to compose the shot the way you want it, then back off a little, if you back off too far you can always crop the extra before printing...

although composition is important, when shooting kids it is sometimes more critical to get the shot quickly..so shoot wide then crop via PC...

 

[Steve's Girl]

great advice!

I am mostly referring to when i am doing portraits for someone else and not myself (which I am doing more and more of).

I haven't charged anyone for my work yet and I just don't feel comfortable doing so until *I* am 100% happy and confident in my abilities. They only pay the cost and shipping of the prints. Right now everyone I have taken portraits for knows I am brand spanking new to this photography thing and learning a lot. So I don't promise anything - but me doing my best for them. I can see improvement from session to session and I am very happy with that. I can see what I have done wrong (for the most part) and I am working on fixing these things.

I have just been frustrated when someone has really liked a shot I have taken and when I go to order the print from mpix for them in an 8x10 format it ends up being cropped to the point of where neither one of us likes it anymore.

So - that is my summer project - learn how to set up the photo so I can crop it to fit an 8x10 format and still be something someone would want.

THEN when I get that mastered and get my lighting issues corrected - I can start charging a small fee - for my time at least.

I understand exactly what you mean. I tend to be a perfectionist and want everything perfect. But photography is an art and everything doesn't have to be perfect. Everyone views art differently.

The photographer that I bought the 8X12 print from had been a professional photographer for 30yrs. I sure didn't think less of his abilities when I bought that print. I loved it and was so glad he captured it. So, don't be too hard on yourself!

 

[Steve's Girl]

Just wanted to add that you are doing a great job and should be very proud of your work!

 

[fitzperry]

The photographer that I bought the 8X12 print from had been a professional photographer for 30yrs. I sure didn't think less of his abilities when I bought that print. I loved it and was so glad he captured it. So, don't be too hard on yourself!

I'm sort of confused as to why anyone would "think less" of an image or the photographer who captured it because it is one aspect ratio as compared to another. I suppose that the 4-5 ratio lends itself better to the typical portrait, but many of my favorite images are anything but typical.

 

[DVC Jen]

Just wanted to add that you are doing a great job and should be very proud of your work!

Thanks - that means a lot.

 

[Steve's Girl]

I'm sort of confused as to why anyone would "think less" of an image or the photographer who captured it because it is one aspect ratio as compared to another. I suppose that the 4-5 ratio lends itself better to the typical portrait, but many of my favorite images are anything but typical.

Sorry, guess I worded that poorly. I'll try again...some photos simply look better printed in a particular ratio or a particular size. Certain crops will alter the "look" of a particular photo. Not that there is anything wrong with that photo, but as the photographer explained to me that if I wanted that particular "look", I would have to print in a certain size. I understood that and appreciated the explanation.

 

[MarkBarbieri]

It is possible to get a focusing screen for some cameras that have the crop lines drawn on them. Then you'll know while you are setting up the shot which areas will get cropped. I'm not too keen on this approach though because it presumes that you will be cropping the same amount from the top and the bottom. If you want to compose so that you always keep the bottom of the photo and just crop more from the top when necessary, a lined focusing screen wouldn't help. The other problem is that not all cameras allow you to replace the focusing screen.