Have we reached the saturation point?

[Barca33Runner]

So, I was wondering do people feel that when a race sells out it makes it seem more valuable to them? Like limited edition pins for sale, it's only worth it if it's limited. To me I don't care if it sells out or not. Otherwise, does it really matter if it sells out? Does RunDisney want it to sell out or do they like it staying open longer so people can register later or even weekend of like at Light side. Then no one can complain they can never get in. Or is the appeal sometimes because it was hard to get in, like a limited edition.

I think rD wants sellouts. It's a good marketing tool to keep demand high into the future.

@roxymama conveyed my feelings earlier as to sellouts. Personally, I don't really care if it's a sellout and I'd probably prefer fewer people than currently run the races; but I want the race to continue to exist and lower demand could cause rD to eliminate a race. It's a delicate balance. I've never felt any extra satisfaction for being in a sold out race.

 

[ZellyB]

Yeah, I don't care if it's a sell out and in fact probably prefer that it isn't as long as attendance doesn't drop to the point that they eliminate the race. Mostly I'd like to see less frenzy for signing up right when they open so I have some time to be sure I really want to do it or not commit too far out, but with the fear of a sell out, I'm worried to delay. I suspect that's why the status bars about the percentage of slots filled went away. If people can see that there are still plenty of slots, they'll wait to sign up, but with it being unknown, FOMO kicks in.

 

[WhereInFlorida]

FOMO requires me to register at noon on registration day, even though I know better.

 

[camaker]

I think rD wants sellouts. It's a good marketing tool to keep demand high into the future.

@roxymama conveyed my feelings earlier as to sellouts. Personally, I don't really care if it's a sellout and I'd probably prefer fewer people than currently run the races; but I want the race to continue to exist and lower demand could cause rD to eliminate a race. It's a delicate balance. I've never felt any extra satisfaction for being in a sold out race.

RunDisney will always want a sell out. It maximizes their profits. They will also want the races to sell out as early as possible because it allows them to nail down their total costs early and it means more money in the bank accruing interest until they have to start paying out for weekend expenses.

The questions that I'd love to have answered (but never will be) are:

1. How many runners does RunDisney need to break even on a race weekend?
2. How many runners does RunDisney need to turn what they consider an acceptable profit on a race weekend?

If attendance begins dropping below the answer to question 2, then I think RunDisney will be quick to eliminate affected weekends. I don't see them having much patience trying to drum up acceptable numbers for subsequent runnings of a weekend once they drop below that threshold. MAYBE a year or two to make sure it wasn't a fluke, but they won't put up with it for very long.

 

[cavepig]

Personally, I don't really care if it's a sellout and I'd probably prefer fewer people than currently run the races; but I want the race to continue to exist and lower demand could cause rD to eliminate a race. It's a delicate balance. I've never felt any extra satisfaction for being in a sold out race.

Yeah, I don't care if it's a sell out and in fact probably prefer that it isn't as long as attendance doesn't drop to the point that they eliminate the race. Mostly I'd like to see less frenzy for signing up right when they open so I have some time to be sure I really want to do it or not commit too far out, but with the fear of a sell out, I'm worried to delay.

Pretty much my thoughts too, sell out to keep the races returning & RunDisney happy but at the same time don't be crowded for my races! It does seem them not selling out gets people later though, like I've seen on FB a lot more just sign up for Darkside hot off the heals of Lightside or they see it's still open so guess I'll do it now.

RunDisney will always want a sell out. It maximizes their profits.

Right, I would think they want sell outs too based on logic, but what is a sell out anymore with them as they seem to always have spots available for most races lately, even Princess was open at marathon weekend in person. Seems though they are at the supply = demand versus for while of demand > supply.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

So, I was wondering do people feel that when a race sells out it makes it seem more valuable to them? Like limited edition pins for sale, it's only worth it if it's limited. To me I don't care if it sells out or not. Otherwise, does it really matter if it sells out? Does RunDisney want it to sell out or do they like it staying open longer so people can register later or even weekend of like at Light side. Then no one can complain they can never get in. Or is the appeal sometimes because it was hard to get in, like a limited edition.

Not me - makes it more of a pain because of the quick sellouts. I could care less if a race sells out. I either want to run it, or I don't.

 

[PaDisneyCouple]

5. The final thing is the experience. For me, runDisney is still very magical but I know it's not that way for everyone. The number of racers makes unavoidable bottlenecks and while runDisney races are great for those who are slower or just starting out with their generous time limits they can be hang-ups for those who are faster because of a small subset who lie on their PoT. Some people let that get to them and ruin their experience. Some of the runners who want to take pictures with characters can't without getting swept and that ruins their experience. Combine that with the mess of the expo when it first opens and you can see why people lose the magic. The only way for Disney to fix that is to decrease the race entrants (which could lead to them charging more) and fixing their expo issues somehow. Perhaps adding something like package pickup (which they were going to do then didn't) when you check-in at the hotel (at least for WDW)?

Our 2016 W&D expo experience was much better than 2015 W&D, but we got lucky to step into the expo line (ignored the bib pick up line) as they opened the doors. I think there is a stress level that can be off-putting to some: registration (may even have to take vacation time to make sure one's at their computer), expo (must be there at door opening to get merchandise). There were people at W&D in the runDisney store section in 2016 who had suitcases to put their stuff in, and they were sprawled all over the floor near the check out line, taking photographs for who-knows-what reason. Then the photos of the marathon weekend line to get into the expo.
Figure out a way to make the expo a better experience and not have merchandise be vaporized in the first 2 hours.

 

[GreatLakes]

Almost everything I was going to say has already been said but this is an interesting topic. First and foremost, I am not sure if a lack of selling out on registration days necessarily a sign of declining demand. Knowing Disney's propensity to over-milk every single product or service they have success with I suspect the registration limits have been upped over the years until they got to the point where they hit either a physical maximum or diseconomy of scale.

On thing I didn't see mentioned explicitly but something that has lessened the luster of RunDisney events for me is the corporate-ness of it. I don't like for-profit races and avoid them. RunDisney should not be run directly as a profit making event. RunDisney should make enough to not lose money and anything remaining should go to the title charity/charities. RunDisney should, instead, be a tool to drive profit for the other divisions. The hotel occupancy, park souvenirs, restaurant revenue, etc that the people in town to run or support runners generate should be where the black balance sheet numbers come from, not from the events themselves. The entire feel of the weekend would be different because every add on wouldn't need to be so high and larger attention could be paid to the racing experience without the necessity to justify it on a spreadsheet. The only profit making aspect of RunDisney should be merchandise and that really shouldn't even be pooled under the RunDisney division. It should be part of product and merchandise.

A few people mentioned the relay. Many marathons have relays, this isn't some new frontier RunDisney needs to boldly go to. It is figured out. My suspicion, and it is only an educated guess, is that the reason the logistics were as bad as they were for the relay is because Disney approached it with their profit goggles on and tried to do it in a way that minimized cost instead of maximizing the experience. I've done a few relays and no one had to be at relay locations at the same time as the starting runners. They were bused to their staring locations in waves after the race started. No one will convince me that a relay isn't a viable option for RunDisney provided they don't try to maximize revenue on the logistics.

The lack of unique race experiences is also hurting them I think. Someone mentioned the formula of the weekend never changes and they are right. A slightly different theme for another 5K / 10K / Half weekend with challenge isn't going to instill excitement as much as when there were only 1 or 2 events or unique events. The moving of W&D to a morning race was a bad choice. A night race with a late night after party is what made that event fun and unique.

My last RunDisney event was marathon weekend 2011 even though I have been to WDW almost every year since. I just don't feel the need to plan my trip around races. I am not opposed to doing another one, I can pretty much guarantee I will do events again when the timing works out right, but I don't circle dates on the calendar in anticipation of every event like I did back when I started.

If I were in management at WDW I would first and foremost make sure RunDisney was restructured as a part of their corporate charity arm to remove any overt profit pressure. I would get some new blood in that takes some risks and creates unique events that aren't so formulaic. Lastly, I would stop the focus on the challenge events and make each individual race the focus. I wouldn't eliminate the challenges but the current management team on occasion make the individual races feel like afterthoughts that are only necessary because they form a part of the challenge whole.

I'm sure some of this will be controversial but I think it is really the best road forward.

 

[rteetz]

Lastly, I would stop the focus on the challenge events and make each individual race the focus. I wouldn't eliminate the challenges but the current management team on occasion make the individual races feel like afterthoughts that are only necessary because they form a part of the challenge whole.

I think that is partly our own fault. Look at the Dopey Challenge for example. The Goofy was already there for about 8 years. Before Dopey people were running the unofficial Dopey, the 5K, Half, and Full. runDisney noticed that people wanted to run all the races so they took advantage of it. Then it was natural to continue to the other events. I think the Challenge's are so focused on because to non-runners and even some runners they look like a crazy thing that only crazy people would do. Whether its 19.3, 39.3, or 48.6, to non-runners thats a lot of miles. When I would tell people I am running Dopey they would look at me like I am nuts. Now when I first did the 10K that was like oh that's cool good for you.

 

[GreatLakes]

I think that is partly our own fault. Look at the Dopey Challenge for example. The Goofy was already there for about 8 years. Before Dopey people were running the unofficial Dopey, the 5K, Half, and Full. runDisney noticed that people wanted to run all the races so they took advantage of it. Then it was natural to continue to the other events. I think the Challenge's are so focused on because to non-runners and even some runners they look like a crazy thing that only crazy people would do. Whether its 19.3, 39.3, or 48.6, to non-runners thats a lot of miles. When I would tell people I am running Dopey they would look at me like I am nuts. Now when I first did the 10K that was like oh that's cool good for you.

To be honest I think the Dopey was a better event when it was unofficial. Kind of like when a grass roots organization becomes a lobbying group. I've done multi-race challenges at non-Disney events and it has a different feel. The I-Challenge at the Illinois marathon, the Nut Job Challenge at Frederick, and the Cleveland marathon challenge all struck a better balance, IMO, of not overshadowing the entire event than Disney does with theirs.

All those other challenges seem less about selling an add-on and more like giving people something beyond the main event to try while Disney just feels the opposite.

I know I sound harsh when discussing RunDisney and it is because I'm disappointed and know they can do better. I love WDW and go often. I can forgive the obvious money grab add-ons that are part of the park experience because Disney is running a business. I just feel like the RunDisney arm of the company shouldn't be run that way. RunDisney events can, and SHOULD, be money making propositions for the other divisions. I just feel down in my heart of hearts that endurance events are, at their core, not-for-profit (as opposed to non-profit) charity events. It is great that RunDisney gets new runners into the sport, tailors their events for athletes of all speeds, and gives us a chance to run through the most magical place on Earth. None of that has to change to make the races a bit more community focused.

 

[rteetz]

To be honest I think the Dopey was a better event when it was unofficial. Kind of like when a grass roots organization becomes a lobbying group. I've done multi-race challenges at non-Disney events and it has a different feel. The I-Challenge at the Illinois marathon, the Nut Job Challenge at Frederick, and the Cleveland marathon challenge all struck a better balance, IMO, of not overshadowing the entire event than Disney does with theirs.

All those other challenges seem less about selling an add-on and more like giving people something beyond the main event to try while Disney just feels the opposite.

I know I sound harsh when discussing RunDisney and it is because I'm disappointed and know they can do better. I love WDW and go often. I can forgive the obvious money grab add-ons that are part of the park experience because Disney is running a business. I just feel like the RunDisney arm of the company shouldn't be run that way. RunDisney events can, and SHOULD, be money making propositions for the other divisions. I just feel down in my heart of hearts that endurance events are, at their core, not-for-profit (as opposed to non-profit) charity events. It is great that RunDisney gets new runners into the sport, tailors their events for athletes of all speeds, and gives us a chance to run through the most magical place on Earth. None of that has to change to make the races a bit more community focused.

I've never done a challenge at a non Disney event and can see where you are coming from but right now I don't see a problem with how they do the challenges. Now if they added even more challenges things might change.

I also think runDisney has grown so much that it really can't be a community feel anymore. The large numbers of people and the fact that you are running in a theme park atmosphere takes away from that. I'm sure running at Disneyland since there is less park time and you run in Anaheim that it's different.

I ran my first marathon at WDW this year. I will say felt more of a community feel at that event alone than any other runDisney event I've done. I really think that's because there is a big amount of spectators out and you run in more than just theme parks. The 5K, 10K and even the half to an extent don't have that feel for me. The WDW Marathon is a one of a kind experience. Again it's the only Marathon I've done though.

 

[bevcgg]

I think Avengers is in real danger of being eliminated. The half this year was wonderful with just over 9K runners- but when you consider the size of other races like Hot Chocolate that has that many and more- how long can RD do a race with that "few people"???

I was fortunate to be able to attend 4 race weekends last year- they were all fun. But by the time Avengers go here- I was a bit "over" the RD experience- which was exactly the same for all 4 weekends. And I spent a lots less $$ on the expo, merch etc. by that last race. This year I will do one, and may just fly in for the half and not spend extra $$$/nights for the challenge experience- again. Of course there is no need to rush that decision since it isn't selling out. ( And I am working towards Dopey in 2019.)

I love RD- the whole experience is what got me running to start with. Other races can't compare to the character stops, the magic of the parks, all the costumes etc. I still plan to at least do one a year- a trip from Denver either direction- but I no longer feel the desire experience all the "different races" because they are no longer "different" at all but the same. That makes me a bit sad.....

 

[wilkeliza]

One thing I miss are the shorter distance weekends. Tower of Terror and Everest were fun for that niche especially ToT. I struggle in those last 3 miles at a half but with a 10 miler I barely get out of my groove. My best race experience ever was the 2nd ToT 10 miler. I was better trained, prepared for the weather, and ended up having the time of my life! Same was for the cut Wine and Dine course. Yeah it was roughly 7ish miles but those 7 were incredibly fun. I never have stopped for a finish line character photo but that time I ran to Minnie for a hug. The problem with the race weekends that go to a half or full is that I leave feeling like I did "just the 10k" even though I know a 10k is still an accomplishment.

 

[Barca33Runner]

To be honest I think the Dopey was a better event when it was unofficial. Kind of like when a grass roots organization becomes a lobbying group. I've done multi-race challenges at non-Disney events and it has a different feel. The I-Challenge at the Illinois marathon, the Nut Job Challenge at Frederick, and the Cleveland marathon challenge all struck a better balance, IMO, of not overshadowing the entire event than Disney does with theirs.

All those other challenges seem less about selling an add-on and more like giving people something beyond the main event to try while Disney just feels the opposite.

I know I sound harsh when discussing RunDisney and it is because I'm disappointed and know they can do better. I love WDW and go often. I can forgive the obvious money grab add-ons that are part of the park experience because Disney is running a business. I just feel like the RunDisney arm of the company shouldn't be run that way. RunDisney events can, and SHOULD, be money making propositions for the other divisions. I just feel down in my heart of hearts that endurance events are, at their core, not-for-profit (as opposed to non-profit) charity events. It is great that RunDisney gets new runners into the sport, tailors their events for athletes of all speeds, and gives us a chance to run through the most magical place on Earth. None of that has to change to make the races a bit more community focused.

I think the tendency for any race weekend is for the longest race/challenge to overshadow the other events. I think it is more pronounced at Disney because of the "bubble"; with such a high percentage of everyone you see participating in the Weekend. I ran Cleveland and was barely even aware the Challenge existed (I don't know whether this is a good or bad thing). I also think the race announcers at Disney, because they have so much more time to fill and, relatively, so few things to talk about, tend to fall back on their "how many Dopey's do we have out there?", "how many Goofy's?", "who here is running in their first 10K?" schtick to the point that it's driven into the ground.

I don't disagree that RunDisney turns me off with all of the blatant profiteering they do (high-priced races, challenges that cost more than the sum of their parts, their attempt at the micro-transaction model with all of the add-ons, etc.). The big one that bothered me recently was the virtual races where they seemed to advertise the races as being for charity, but the only donations being made to charity were the voluntary extra donations made by participants when they registered.

It's tough, I think we are all pretty aware of the short-comings of RD and I think it's sometimes difficult to reconcile those short-comings. For me, I know that I would never have started running if it hadn't been to train for an RD race and I probably would have been one and done if it wasn't for the fun I had while running it. I also know that it's not the same for everyone and can fully understand the turn-offs that would make someone not want to RunDisney anymore.

 

[rteetz]

Looks like there will be one night race this year. Only problem is its in Paris. The 5K is moving to a night race apparently.

 

[Ariel484]

The challenges overshadow the other events everywhere - look at this message board. There's a Marathon Weekend thread, but there's also a Dopey Challenge thread.

 

[camaker]

I don't disagree that RunDisney turns me off with all of the blatant profiteering they do (high-priced races, challenges that cost more than the sum of their parts, their attempt at the micro-transaction model with all of the add-ons, etc.). The big one that bothered me recently was the virtual races where they seemed to advertise the races as being for charity, but the only donations being made to charity were the voluntary extra donations made by participants when they registered.

I agree with most of what you've said here, but I'm curious about the challenge statement. Why shouldn't the challenges cost more than the sum of their parts? You get all the benefits of the parts (shirts, medals) plus an additional shirt and medal for the challenge. That's an added cost for them to put on the challenge, not to mention the extra graphics, banners, systems to monitor the challenge, so I would expect it to be passed along to the customer.

 

[rteetz]

The challenges overshadow the other events everywhere - look at this message board. There's a Marathon Weekend thread, but there's also a Dopey Challenge thread.

True but there aren't separate threads for the other challenges. I think Dopey has its own thread because of how big that challenge is. 48.6 isn't no easy task. It also is an incredibly popular challenge with 2017 being the only year it didn't sell out (I might be wrong here but it normally sold out before this).

 

[kydisneyfans]

I started running 2 years ago and did my first Disney race last year.
We did the Star Wars races on both coasts, then Wine and Dine at WDW. This year we are doing the Star Wars races again, but not the Wine and Dine. My favorite race I've done anywhere was RnR Las vegas, and we're going back this year.

My thoughts:
-West coast vs east coast-the West Coast races have SOOOO much more course support-the marching bands, the cheerleaders, the hotel guests. Outside of the park half the route is lined with supporters. WDW has little outside of a DJ here and there, and a great view of the sewer plant. I actually think WDW running is gulp-boring. I want the Kessel and CtoC medals so we're going in April.

-Characters-if you are not a fast runner, you have zero opportunity to get character photos, which makes the races unique. Maybe some character spots should open a few hours into the race for the slower runners to have opportunities also.

-Cost-love the medals, love the shirts. I don't see the races being outrageous. On the flip side, I'm doing 3 half marathons with RnR this year for the price of 1 Disney, with similar swag and IMO, a much better expo experience, and a better after race experience.

-Early entry-no refunds-With Crohn's, I can't forecast when a flare would hit or even if I can run 11 months ahead, it's tough to sink money into something that offers no refunds.

We will continue to do Disney races, but feel that other race experiences are out there to be had. In the future though I see myself doing more RnR racing and less Disney racing to get some variety, some different scenery, and save a few $$.

 

[Barca33Runner]

I agree with most of what you've said here, but I'm curious about the challenge statement. Why shouldn't the challenges cost more than the sum of their parts? You get all the benefits of the parts (shirts, medals) plus an additional shirt and medal for the challenge. That's an added cost for them to put on the challenge, not to mention the extra graphics, banners, systems to monitor the challenge, so I would expect it to be passed along to the customer.

I guess that really doesn't bother me much and does make sense. Probably should have just stuck with high-priced races.

ETA: I think I had a blanket-ideal that there is cost efficiency as you bundle more things together, but I see that it doesn't really work in certain situations.