Have the menus changed because of free dining?

[Mouseaholic!!!]

I think the assumption that the DDP is a cause of menu changes is flawed. I don't think Disney is changing menus because they made some sort of error in overselling or underpricing the DDP. They are simplifying menus because they have deliberately chosen a strategy of appealing to the masses and the DDP is just one cog in that strategy. Lets face it - there are far, far more picky and unadventurous eaters than foodies among the overall population of Disney visitors, and Disney has taken an approach that appeals to that majority at the expense of the foodie minority.

Even if they did away with the dining plan tomorrow, I would expect to see the menus remain standardized and simplified, just as drink menus, souvenir options, and myriad other things around the World have been standardized. There's no Disney Booze Plan but the lounge menus are looking more and more alike with every passing month, and there's no Disney Merchandise plan but more and more of the shops are filled with the same products. It is Disney's overall business plan at this point in time, not a byproduct of the DDP.

Ultimately - this is the shame.

Disney worked SO hard to create a level of fine dining for we adults who want more than to MOOOO between breakfast, lunch and dinner. Many of us seek a dining experience which does not include shoveling down our food fast so we can get to Sorin fast. (ok, I LOVE sorin)

They had managed to create options on property which finally blew away the notion that the food at disney was limited and poor quality.

They would encourage locals to come to EPCOT in the evenings for the dining experience....heck, they created the Food and Wine experience and it was working.

Now they are riding a reputation. They have just gone back to their roots......cheep food.


We are less and less interested in reservations at WDW. We now turn our dining adventures OFF SITE for good food and have greatly lowered our expectations for foor onsite.

How sad to throw away what they had worked so hard for.

 

[ThumperandLitenin]

Ultimately - this is the shame.

Disney worked SO hard to create a level of fine dining for we adults who want more than to MOOOO between breakfast, lunch and dinner. Many of us seek a dining experience which does not include shoveling down our food fast so we can get to Sorin fast. (ok, I LOVE sorin)

They had managed to create options on property which finally blew away the notion that the food at disney was limited and poor quality.

They would encourage locals to come to EPCOT in the evenings for the dining experience....heck, they created the Food and Wine experience and it was working.

Now they are riding a reputation. They have just gone back to their roots......cheep food.


We are less and less interested in reservations at WDW. We now turn our dining adventures OFF SITE for good food and have greatly lowered our expectations for foor onsite.

How sad to throw away what they had worked so hard for.

Possibly the post of the century!!!!!!!!

You nailed it. In an effort to make a buck - and I do not begrudge Disney for doing so - they are cheapening the brand. Look what happened to General Motors when every car line shared a model; i.e, badge engineering.

Disney is doing the same thing - living off a Cadillac memory while supplying Chevrolets.

There is nothing wrong with the DDP. It makes perfect sense to me that some folks want to have a "paid-in-full" vacation. I love going to a character meal and watching the little ones. The noise and chaos that goes with that is part of the atmosphere.

I just don't want to hear that at Cali Grille, Artist Point or the Yachtsman, as well as see people dressed in park clothes. There's a place for everything.

Leave out certain restaurants as OOP-only, and enhance the atmosphere, don't dumb it down. All Disney is really doing is driving the guests who enjoy a quiet, intimate meal off the grounds. I bet they make more off the wine bill from an OOP guest than they do from a DDP meal.

 

[TDC Nala]

Leave out certain restaurants as OOP-only, and enhance the atmosphere, don't dumb it down. All Disney is really doing is driving the guests who enjoy a quiet, intimate meal off the grounds. I bet they make more off the wine bill from an OOP guest than they do from a DDP meal.

Not gonna happen. The DDP guests are the guests they WANT. And people on DDP still order wine.

 

[ThumperandLitenin]

Not gonna happen. The DDP guests are the guests they WANT. And people on DDP still order wine.

Nala, why do you think want DDP guests? Why does Disney want DDP guests in their signature restaurants, other than to fill seats, if it is at the expense of the OOP guests who are probably going to spend more per capita?

Why would Disney care if the DDP Smith party of five is eating at Trails' End Buffet or the Yachtsman? In fact, I would think they would prefer they eat at Trails' End.

Does Disney care that they are running OOP guests off the grounds to other dining places?

I have to believe the margin at the sig restaurants is higher than the regular TS restaurants.

 

[Colleen27]

Ultimately - this is the shame.

Disney worked SO hard to create a level of fine dining for we adults who want more than to MOOOO between breakfast, lunch and dinner. Many of us seek a dining experience which does not include shoveling down our food fast so we can get to Sorin fast. (ok, I LOVE sorin)

They had managed to create options on property which finally blew away the notion that the food at disney was limited and poor quality.

They would encourage locals to come to EPCOT in the evenings for the dining experience....heck, they created the Food and Wine experience and it was working.

Now they are riding a reputation. They have just gone back to their roots......cheep food.


We are less and less interested in reservations at WDW. We now turn our dining adventures OFF SITE for good food and have greatly lowered our expectations for foor onsite.

How sad to throw away what they had worked so hard for.

On the flip side of that, though, I think you could make a case that Disney overimproved and was chasing too narrow a market with their focus on finer dining.

I only went to Disney once in the years I hear referred to as the best years for dining there. We walked up to Coral Reef on a Saturday and Sci-Fi on a Sunday over summer vacation, which tells me that either the menu, the price, or both kept demand well below supply/capacity. My then-16yo brother ordered off the kids menu at CR because there was nothing on the adult menu that he would eat. At the time, I thought that was just him being him, but now, more than a decade later, I've realized that he's pretty typical of American dining habits/preferences.

For you and I and others who appreciate good, creative food, it is a loss, but I think it is probably sounder business sense to appeal to the average guest (meaning middle income Americans with kids) rather than focus on quality to the degree that they're alienating those guests in order to create greater appeal to certain niche demographics.

And overall, even the diminished Disney dining experience isn't bad by any family-destination standard. We still have mostly good and very good meals when we're there, a couple I'd consider excellent, and only one or two losers in two dozen nights' worth of stays.

It seems to me that Disney is seeking a middle ground - food that is good enough to keep people on site and enjoying TS restaurants, not so fancy/creative that picky eaters avoid making ADRs, but not so homogenized that people start heading off site in droves at dinner time. At some point, if they continue the standardization they're going to lose enough people that it will bite them in the bottom line and the pendulum will start to swing back in the opposite direction.

 

[LYNSUE]

What? They got rid of the Pime Rib at the buffets? My Dad is going to have a heart attack, half the reason he goes to Disney is to hit a buffet each night of his vacation, and the Prime Rib is one of his favorites.

The lack of prime rib at the buffets may actually prevent your dad from having that heart attack.

 

[Colleen27]

There is nothing wrong with the DDP. It makes perfect sense to me that some folks want to have a "paid-in-full" vacation. I love going to a character meal and watching the little ones. The noise and chaos that goes with that is part of the atmosphere.

I just don't want to hear that at Cali Grille, Artist Point or the Yachtsman, as well as see people dressed in park clothes. There's a place for everything.

Leave out certain restaurants as OOP-only, and enhance the atmosphere, don't dumb it down. All Disney is really doing is driving the guests who enjoy a quiet, intimate meal off the grounds. I bet they make more off the wine bill from an OOP guest than they do from a DDP meal.

I don't think Disney wants their signature restaurants to be a place where children aren't welcome, though, based on how much of their marketing message revolves around providing an experience that the whole family can enjoy. I know that's one of our favorite things about Disney - we can have a nice dinner without feeling out of place for having children with us. We certainly wouldn't be interested in the dining plan if not for signature dining and other nicer experiences - I limit our character meals to 2-3 per week or longer trip because of the noise and the chaos!

I agree about the park clothes, though. The sigs should absolutely be better about enforcing the dress code, but let's face it - Disney seldom enforces rules in situations that could cause conflict with a guest. They establish rules - smoking areas, no Heelys in the park, signature dress codes - and hope that people are honest enough to follow them, but they're not strictly enforced.

As far as the wine bill, don't forget that many of us DDP guests order alcohol too. Disney will be making plenty off the wine bills on our next trip, because I fully intend to enjoy all of the wonderful wine flights and pairings that I had to abstain from due to being pregnant on the last trip! Dining at Artist Point for the first time and not being able to sample their ice wines was torture.

 

[auralia]

I believe they want to encourage the dining plan for one reason... in the end it does make people spend more... most people wouldn't get a desert w/ the meal, most wouldn't shell out for snacks, the kind of people we are talking about here eat one meal, counter service in the park per day and bring things with them into the park (nothing wrong with that) but then they get this dining plan and then end up spending more money then they would have just eating that one meal and Many Many people often have credits left over when their stay is done and never use them. That is money in disney pockets.

I am doing quick service dining plan just for ease of use (please note not free dining, we are doing the military deal), i don't really see it as a money saving feature as i wouldn't usually buy desert for my meals and i would only get water as i don't drink soda, and i would usually bring my own snacks, but I thought we would try it once. Also I'm bringing my neice w/ and i didn't want her not eating because she was worried about how much money I was spending, this way it's already spent so she can't feel bad and starve herself (and she would trust me).

and so in the end disney ends up making a better profit w/ the dining plan imho.

 

[Cheshire Figment]

Last Monday I went to Citrico's, taking my oldest grandnephew who had just arrived for College Program. (I figured the condemned should have a hearty meal.) With iced tea each, a shared appetizer, and each having an entree and dessert the bill, after my TiW discount, gratuity and tax, came to over $100 for the two of us.

There were families there with well-behaved children. However there was one family with both an infant (and you should have seen the maneuvering to get the giant stroller to the table) and about a five year old who could not be kept still or quiet. Luckily that family was far enough away that it did not really disturb our meal, but it is something that I could have done without. And I would have hated to have been at an adjoining table.

Maybe my idea to get rid of the basic DDP is too strong; But possibly all the current signature restaurants could be removed from DDP but still leave the dinner shows as using two credits.

 

[TheMaxRebo]

I think the assumption that the DDP is a cause of menu changes is flawed. I don't think Disney is changing menus because they made some sort of error in overselling or underpricing the DDP. They are simplifying menus because they have deliberately chosen a strategy of appealing to the masses and the DDP is just one cog in that strategy. Lets face it - there are far, far more picky and unadventurous eaters than foodies among the overall population of Disney visitors, and Disney has taken an approach that appeals to that majority at the expense of the foodie minority.

Even if they did away with the dining plan tomorrow, I would expect to see the menus remain standardized and simplified, just as drink menus, souvenir options, and myriad other things around the World have been standardized. There's no Disney Booze Plan but the lounge menus are looking more and more alike with every passing month, and there's no Disney Merchandise plan but more and more of the shops are filled with the same products. It is Disney's overall business plan at this point in time, not a byproduct of the DDP.

I guess my point (and perhaps one I am not communicating well) is that why does Disney have to alienate the "foodie" in order to appeal to the masses. I actually think they should absolutely not get rid of the DDP (as I think that is appealing to a lot of people), but figure out a way to also make the people who want a high level dining experience welcomed and desired -> heck, they are usually the ones who are dropping the most $ per person

maybe have some restaurants do a "foodie" night where one night a week they aren't on the plan, or just take a couple of more restaurants off the plan and encourage the staff to target the "foodie" or have more restaurants have chefs tables or just something that lets the "foodie" feel like their desires are being cared about without annoying the person trying to be on a budget or who enjoys the DDP for other reasons

Just seems like Disney World is so large that there is a way to appeal to both sides

 

[MarkinNM]

With all due respect, I think what you just said proves the "dumbing-down" observation.

By loading-up the signature restaurants with folks who would not normally eat there, and experience has shown will order the most expensive things on the menu just because they can, Disney has no choice but to limit what they will offer.

Right now, Disney needs to get butts in the seats, that's it. Covering overhead at the higher-end restaurants is the key.

Sadly, what this has done is diminish the entire Disney brand. It's just easier to notice in the sig retaurants when they are filled with tired, irritable children, and parents dressed in park clothes that have been running since 8:00 am. No dress code enforcement, limted menus, and a lot more noise.

Signature dining at Disney wasn't just about the food, it was about the atmosphere. The introduction of the DDP has lowered the bar.

Until it costs at least three DDP credits to visit a sig, or drop their availability from DDP altogether, it's not going to change. I'm just really curious how many of the folks on DDP would pay OOP to eat at a sig restaurant.

This isn't a condemnation of the folks on DDP. After reading some threads on the subject, I recognize it has value for people, even if it is just a budgeting tool. However, the effects on signature dining can not be dismissed.

It’s called the evolution of a menu, not dumbing down a menu, like I have stated EVERY restaurant goes through this period and chooses a menu for a many varied reasons. Having going to a dining destination over the years like Las Vegas I have seen the same sliming down a menu its going to happen no matter where you go as some restaurants have a ever changing menu, spice or changing things up is a good thing....

Disney is not really concerned too much about getting people into their restaurant seats as much as they are getting them into the PARKS……THEN the rest falls to place, resorts and restaurants..... If a sig rest was to be taken off the DDP I could see that place fall into a dark black hole of restaurant closure, lets face it Disney does not do anything special in its so called signature restaurants, other then V&A. Disney has never been known as fine cuisine or a destination for fine cuisine, they are a family entertainment entity. Are you gong to blame the DDP on the many resort issues I have been reading about or the park issues…….
Talking about 3 credit meals is just silly, 3 credits would surely spell the end to those restaurants, when you eat in a sig resturant do you pay 3 credits now, nope then why should the DDP customer be expected too? If your that concerned about a dress code or loud kids then by all means eat offsite, as its DISNEY your at and just like the crowds, heat, your going to have kids as its all about the kids, something I think we all tend to forget.

I think the assumption that the DDP is a cause of menu changes is flawed. I don't think Disney is changing menus because they made some sort of error in overselling or underpricing the DDP. They are simplifying menus because they have deliberately chosen a strategy of appealing to the masses and the DDP is just one cog in that strategy. Lets face it - there are far, far more picky and unadventurous eaters than foodies among the overall population of Disney visitors, and Disney has taken an approach that appeals to that majority at the expense of the foodie minority.

Even if they did away with the dining plan tomorrow, I would expect to see the menus remain standardized and simplified, just as drink menus, souvenir options, and myriad other things around the World have been standardized. There's no Disney Booze Plan but the lounge menus are looking more and more alike with every passing month, and there's no Disney Merchandise plan but more and more of the shops are filled with the same products. It is Disney's overall business plan at this point in time, not a byproduct of the DDP.

Well put.............

 

[palavra]

Although I really like a nice meal in a restaurant, I think Disney is catering to the majority of their customers-ordinary people who wouldn't know the difference between a hamburger steak and a filet mignon. And honestly, I wouldn't assume that Disney would be the first place that foodies would pick for a vacation. Clearly, the parks are the destination, not the food.

 

[copperbrick]

I believe they want to encourage the dining plan for one reason... in the end it does make people spend more... most people wouldn't get a desert w/ the meal, most wouldn't shell out for snacks, the kind of people we are talking about here eat one meal, counter service in the park per day and bring things with them into the park (nothing wrong with that) but then they get this dining plan and then end up spending more money then they would have just eating that one meal and Many Many people often have credits left over when their stay is done and never use them. That is money in disney pockets.

Having spent many years as a business manager, I must agree. Disney definitely makes more money.

From my experience, here's the thing: Wise management dictates it would be prudent of Disney to be VERY careful when adjusting menus, quality, or portion sizes, as in the prime rib and LeCellier onion soup posts that appeared earlier in this thread.

People come to Disney to either make memories or relive them. If the food isn't the same as experienced in the past, or if it isn't good enough to create a wonderful new memory, it's going to disappoint people to the point of dining off-property -- foodies as well as everyone else.

DON'T MESS WITH OUR FOOD EXPERIENCE!

As far as children and non-foodie types dining in signature restaurants . . . well, discrimination has never been cool. Everyone should be welcome.

Yeah, it can be a drag when a three-year-old is having a temper tantrum at the table next to yours, but I've had that happen at Chicago's Ritz Carlton Dining Room (and Victoria and Alberts) as well as Narcoosee's. Stuff happens.

Better enforcement of the dress codes would be a good idea since it would require all those tired dressed-down folks with beyond-tired kids to go back to the hotel to refresh.

From my management experience, probably the best way to enforce this would be for Disney to make a courtesy call to the guest the day prior (it could be a recorded message), to remind the party of the code. Not everyone would comply, but I bet MORE would comply than do now.

 

[Took]

Having spent many years as a business manager, I must agree. They definitely make more money.

However, wise management practices also dictate that it would be prudent of Disney to be VERY careful when adjusting menus or portion sizes, as in the prime rib and LeCellier onion soup posts that appeared earlier in this thread.

People come to Disney to either make memories or relive them. If the food isn't the same as experienced in the past, or if it isn't good enough to create a wonderful new memory, it's going to disappoint people to the point of dining off-property -- foodies as well as everyone else.

DON'T MESS WITH MY FOOD!

As far as children and non-foodie types dining in signature restaurants . . . well, discrimination has never been cool. Everyone should be welcome.

Yeah, it can be a drag when a three-year-old is having a temper tantrum at the table next to yours, but I've had that happen at Chicago's Ritz Carlton Dining Room, Victoria and Alberts and Narcoosee's. Stuff happens.

Better enforcement of the dress codes would be a good idea since it would require all those tired dressed-down folks with beyond-tired kids to go back to the hotel to refresh.

From my management experience, probably the best way to enforce this would be for Disney to make a courtesy call to the guest the day prior (it could be a recorded message), to remind the party of the code. Not everyone would comply, but I bet MORE would comply than they do now.

Some apt observations.

 

[ThumperandLitenin]

Mark:

Your points are well taken, but I would argue that the sig restaurants were doing fine prior to DDP. If anything, I would think they would be trying to develop stand-out dishes to distinguish themselves.

I'll agree that Disney isn't doing much of anything special in their sig restaurants now, but I think they used to. Certainly V&A proves that.

I think it boils down to do you want to do volume or quality. It looks like Disney is going the volume route right now.

Being from New Orleans, we have a number of world-class retaurants which almost go out of their way to make it hard to dine. They do that in order to uphold standards that have made them world famous. Same in restaurants I've been to in New York, Chicago, and L.A.

It sounds like you are in the restaurant business, so I'm not trying to be contentious here. But I would think that if you were trying to establish an upper-end restaurant, you would set some pretty high standards, and that would include your menu, dress code, admission practices, etc.

It appears to me that Disney is going in the opposite direction. But in the end, burning two TS credits for an otherwise mediocre meal from a place that used to be top-notch just isn't going to fly with the general public. So in the end, the restaurant dies. I think you are beginning to see that with Le Cellier.

Not being from the west, I was not aware that Las Vegas was considered a dining destination. DW and I were there last fall and really didn't find any place that stood out, although Todd English' Olives was excellent.

While I am not remotely close to being able to identify the fine dining spots in Las Vegas, most seemed geared more towards attracting patrons by interesting theming, but not offering anything that would be considered a signature dish. If anything, that's the same model that Disney seems to be following.

I do disagree that it's all about the kids. It's about the adults too. There's nothing wrong with carving out some spots for just adults to enjoy a quiet, romantic meal. I have a hard time believing a seven year old would rather eat dinner at the Yachtsman Steakhouse instead of Chef Mickey's.

Don't get me wrong, I love doing the character meals, Hoop-Dee-Do Review, whatever. However, it is fun to get away from all of that once or twice during a trip.

Your statement would tend to make the point that standards are being lowered to broaden the audience. I think that hurts the value being offered.

If that's how it all shakes out, no big deal. There are actually of plenty of TS and CS places where I love to eat any way. I'm just not interested in dropping over $150 for the same atmosphere I can get in Pecos Bill Cafe (one of my faves!).

Best Regards.

Thump

 

[copperbrick]

I do disagree that it's all about the kids. It's about the adults too. There's nothing wrong with carving out some spots for just adults to enjoy a quiet, romantic meal.

This is an interesting point -- how many restaurants are there on Disney property that are for adults only? Are there any?

Would it be worth it for Disney to create one or two signature dining places for adults only? (Not sure if age discrimination comes into play here if it isn't a nightclub - does anyone know?)

 

[Colleen27]

This is an interesting point -- how many restaurants are there on Disney property that are for adults only? Are there any?

Would it be worth it for Disney to create one or two signature dining places for adults only? (Not sure if age discrimination comes into play here if it isn't a nightclub - does anyone know?)

Just one - Victoria & Alberts has a minimum age of 10. Bistro de Paris and Shula's (at the Dolphin) don't have children's menus, so that discourages families with young children from dining there without having an actual "no kids" rule, and last I checked Shula's even includes a couple hours of childcare at the Dolphin kids' club for parents dining there.

 

[jodifla]

Ultimately - this is the shame.

Disney worked SO hard to create a level of fine dining for we adults who want more than to MOOOO between breakfast, lunch and dinner. Many of us seek a dining experience which does not include shoveling down our food fast so we can get to Sorin fast. (ok, I LOVE sorin)

They had managed to create options on property which finally blew away the notion that the food at disney was limited and poor quality.

They would encourage locals to come to EPCOT in the evenings for the dining experience....heck, they created the Food and Wine experience and it was working.

Now they are riding a reputation. They have just gone back to their roots......cheep food.


We are less and less interested in reservations at WDW. We now turn our dining adventures OFF SITE for good food and have greatly lowered our expectations for foor onsite.

How sad to throw away what they had worked so hard for.

You know, this is a great post, and SO true! When it was jut the Magic Kingdom, the food wasn't very good.

When they added Epcot, there was a big uptick in the level of food. It just got better and better until....

THE STUPID DDP came along!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The timing is just TOO coincidental for me.

 

[copperbrick]

Just one - Victoria & Alberts has a minimum age of 10. Bistro de Paris and Shula's (at the Dolphin) don't have children's menus, so that discourages families with young children from dining there without having an actual "no kids" rule, and last I checked Shula's even includes a couple hours of childcare at the Dolphin kids' club for parents dining there.

Interesting . . . has it always been that way? I remember a toddler at V&A in the early 90's.

 

[ThumperandLitenin]

This is an interesting point -- how many restaurants are there on Disney property that are for adults only? Are there any?

Would it be worth it for Disney to create one or two signatures for adults? (Not sure if age discrimination comes into play here if it isn't a nightclub - does anyone know?)

No, there aren't any that I know of, but frankly, there doesn't need to be. If some of the places were strictly OOP, and held the same standards as V&A, there probably wouldn't be a problem.

Each Deluxe Resort should have one restaurant that upheld higher standards and wasn't eligible for the DDP. If that were the case, I would be willing to bet that the number of people dragging little ones in for post 8:00 pm dinner reservations straight from the parks would be almost nil.

Bottomline is that this is moot. Disney has chosen a program that may eventually take away something that I used to enjoy. For every one of me, there are probably 25 people for whom the new system works. More power to them.

What no one can argue though, is that the standards are being lowered, and the reputations of the restaurants are suffering.