Guess what they are planning on replacing the fireworks and parade with?

[Another Voice]

I’m hardly the appointed speaker for the Average Tourist – what I wrote is nothing but standard issue common business sense. The mere fact that something so obvious as “people like value for their money” seems so strange that it requires ridicule is one more indication about how isolated Disney has become from its own customers.

When I buy a taco I do not care about internal budget struggles inside the Taco Bell Tower. When I buy a car I do not care about the family inheritance struggles inside Ford. When I buy a shirt I do not care about the lost transportation rebates given to Macy’s.

All I care about is the value I receive for my money. I’m not going to drop an extra five bucks in the department store because a contract manager really, really tired to lower costs but couldn’t. I’m not going to drop an extra grand at the dealership just because some rich suit thinks he deserves an extra million and who am I to say otherwise.

Why is so strange that people planning a trip to Walt Disney World act the same way? They want value for their money, not whines about how some accountants work isn’t appreciated. NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE WORKINGS OF DISNEY WHEN THE CREDIT CARD GETS SWIPED. All they see that ticket prices went up and hours went down. Burbank, Orlando, Mars – it doesn’t matter.

Intentions don’t mean anything. Yes, it’s harsh, it’s cruel and it’s unfair. But that’s business.

Explain away all you want. Call us negative, call us chickens, threaten not to post anymore – it ain’t going to change the fact that fewer and fewer people are going to WDW. If you think twenty extra people in rubber suits and demands that we accept less than before will reverse the trend, they please buy more DVC points.

But right now my stock certificates are worth more as collectables on eBay than as instruments of equity and pretty soon I’ll be forced to trade them in for shares of General Electric.

 

[Bob O]

Where is their any proof that incremental changes are going to be good for the customer?? They can easily make some positive change with one hand and take it away with the next.
They need to promote agressively that they are going to increase the hours of the parks for the guests enjoyment, make it part of a pr campaign to induce more visitors and bring back EE and agai make it part of a pr campaing for people staying onsite, prmote that you get real perks for staying onsite which will bring in more revenue, increase fastpass perks also for onsite guests to increase hotel occupancy. use a pr campign building on the nostaglia of the good old days of disney when the park hours were long and all rides were operating. By dosing this you can increase revenue and have guests leave with a "wow" factor as compared to the parks in thie communties which dont offer this.

 

[raidermatt]

It's all in the angle from which you view it.

But this is the problem. Its not in how one views this. You're looking at the situation from a micro point of view, i.e., what do your neighboors experience?

I understand your point, that if a vacationing family's expectations are what's been posted at Disney.com, then yes, they see an extra Spectro as a plus.

But do you honestly believe that the majority of visitors to WDW have 9-6 Sunday-Friday as their true expectation? Even those that know about these new earlier closings have not necessarily accepted it as their expectation. Knowing what your experience will be is not the same as changing what you believe good value to be.

I'm a half-full type. You are a half-empty type.

Scoop, how wrong you are about me. If you had to label me, I wouldn't be either. I'm more the "call it half empty, call it half full, I don't care, but please explain to me why its not full and let's figure out how we can make it full" type...

No big deal either way since the glass contains the same amount for both of us.

You're right, it does contain the same amount. And no matter how you label it, the glass is still short some liquid that it used to have. A returning guest sees this. A new guest forms their judgement about Disney based on the 1/2 glass, instead of the full glass that used to exist. Both are less likely to go to Disney for their glass next time.

That last sentence is the key point, Scoop. You and I will still go back. But its pretty clear that others, who are closer to the fence than you and I, are making other choices.

 

[Bob O]

To me 9-6pm isnt acceptable at a SF or other type of park, yet alone a disney park which i have far higher expectations from.
I think the average person is speaking with their money by not going to the park as often and didnt fall for the pr of Walts birthday campaign. They are speaking as evidenced by reduced park attendance and hotel stays.

 

[Bob O]

I gave the answers to the question that was asked!!

 

[hopemax]

So scoop wants a suggestion...

Something I suggested on another board: One non-Saturday, late closing for both the Magic Kingdom and MGM (on separate days of course). Run Spectro and the fireworks at the MK, 2 Fantasmic shows at the MK, a full operating day. Guests get 1 day out of 7 when they feel things are the way they used to be, and Disney gets 6 days to do what they feel they need to do.

The people who do bother to check for hours (like us) could plan a vacation that would allow us to delude ourselves into thinking it's worth the trip because they have a willingness to schedule around those late days. It's the flip side of having a "dark day" without the negative side affect of pissing some people off in the process.

I wish I had access to WDW's numbers but I have a hunch that the number of people who use the internet to do even a basic level of research isn't insignificant. Not a majority, but not something that should be ignored. These people are checking the hours and are saying, "Hmm, maybe this isn't the best time to go, I'll wait for things to get better." And that's not helping anyone.

Running parades or fireworks every night, like this trial, I'm not sure is the best strategy. It's likely to increase the crowds each day, but only by a small amount, and not enough to make it financially worth while. I expect after this, the managers will report, "Yes, we saw minor increases, but not enough to justify this schedule." But if you can get that small amount who would have came on Tuesday and Thursday to adjust their schedule to come on Wednesday, running the parade/fireworks has a better shot of being a success since you only have to pay for one show not three.

Do one day, and if that day fills up, THEN add another day. What should happen is a cascading effect. Some people can be enticed back with one full, operating day at each park; they don't mind "working around" the schedule. They go, have a good time because everything is operating, they get their late night at the magical Magic Kingdom, go home tell their friends and some of them decide to come. That one day fills up, so a 2nd day is added. 2 days at full, gets another bunch of people to realize the value, they come down and the process repeats. Hotels start filling up, and then a 3rd day is needed to handle the people. And then they're back in business.

It would be a balancing act, because if you wait to long to add the 2nd day (or even a second show), it gets to crowded which has a negative effect on guest satisfaction. And I no longer have faith that WDW's managment can identify the right time. They'll want to push it, "just a little bit more."

 

[PKS44]

Adopt the Japanese model-

Do not open lame a** parks. This means you have to DO something about the lame park you did open--that will take time and money...not a quick turn around but something that must be done-NOW

Do not sit on your laurels with parks-"as long as their is Imagination then the place will never be completed" what is the last new thing to come to the World Showcase? Oh yeah, that would be the closing of Millenium Village...Again this is going to take some time and money but this investment must begin soon...

DO THESE NEW ADDITIONS RIGHT! No carny rides, or cheap off the shelf.

Next- get the people in the parks, they will pay to get in and then will become walking advertisements for the improvements you make...how do you get them in? Three tiered admission levels as in Japan- Unlimited -as it is now full use of the parks. (Special cool looking bracelet)
Limited use- using tickets or a punch card or punch bracelet (not so cool looking) and admission to the shops and restaurants only (not a very cool looking bracelet at all) More hassle- yes...more guests? I dunno why don't we ask the MOST VISITED themeparks in the world that draw from a smaller potential audience? (Tokyo Disneyland and Tokyo DisneySea)

IF the above brings in more people but cannibalizes full price admissions you can always eliminate it easily as a failed experiment....I would guess that those who come in on the lower ticket end up spending more on the food and souvenirs to make up but let's find out?

PROMOTE THE PARKS AGGRESSIVELY ON YOUR NETWORK! Not lame sitcoms running around the parks- but shows that are dedicated to the parks as a special thing that people just have to know about and see---two to five minute segments between shows and occasional full hour long affairs for something really special like your cool new Space ride or whatever else you can add...

Definitely give people more for staying onsite-look at the buses they use in Tokyo!-not just a bus with Disney written on it but a sleek silver job with MICKEY shaped windows! EE at MK at least on Saturdays, or Mondays.

 

[raidermatt]

On the surface, testing guest reaction to parades/fireworks/characters is fine. After all, there are very few of us who can predict the true impact of such things. But darn it, why don't they already know what guest reaction will be? They've cut hours and entertainment, and only NOW do they want to know what guests think about these things? The fact that they don't ask these questions when making cuts, but want them answered before adding anything just proves that those running this show don't understand the business they are in.

Scoop, if testing incremental changes is now the norm, fine. Its better than the willy-nilly cuts we've been seeing. But if that is truly the new philosophy, we should expect to see it applied to any other cuts that are being contemplated, and we should also see other tests for possible adds, correct?

You want MY business plan? Well, I'd do several things immediately. One is to re-assess how the parks/resorts evaluate the long-term impact of decisions on guest satisfaction. Because its clear from looking at what's going on that either this area is being ignored, or its being mis-managed. Just doing tests and surveys doesn't cut it, given the failure of these processes in the past. If a cut is made, I don't just want to know what the cost/revenue impact is over the next week, month or even year. I want to know what it does 3 years from now. When the Smiths are contemplating coming back in 2005, will this decision make them more or less likely to choose WDW? And I want the TRUTH, not what somebody thinks I want to hear.

Since whats in the past is over and done with, I would just have to accept the fact that we do not understand how our guests feel about such basic things as hours and entertainment.

Given that, yes, I probably would be instituting some tests very similar to the ones being planned. In fact, once I was comfortable with our ability to accurately assess our guests wants and needs, I'd be testing up the wazoo, because how can we ever expect to make our guests happy if we don't know what they want (and are willing to pay for)?

But to imply that these upcoming tests signify that all of the above changes are actually happening is just a bit too much for me to accept right now. And frankly, if the above changes are not all happening, the tests are pretty much a waste of time, since its likely the results will be mis-interpreted once again...

So, Scoopster, that's how I'd start...

(I'd also be leaning towards making some sort of public admission that some mistakes have been made, and that we (Disney) were re-focusing on our guests. But I wouldn't do that until I had come up with a couple of tangible and significant things we were prepared to do to prove this...)

 

[EUROPA]

...before I give my suggestions can we agree to the fact that cuts that Disney has made is due to other areas of the company under perforing, losing money or wasteful spending? Can we also agree that those cuts have in turn hurt Disney attendance?


Until we agree to that it’s all a moot point.

 

[YoHo]

Somebody Email me if something interesting happens here before Eisner gets canned, cause this thread stinks and it isn't worth taking time out of my day right now to read all this.


You know what? WDW is screwed. It sounds like local WDW managment has found a way to sneak a little value out of your dollar while giving Burbank what it wants. Take advantage of it. I don't see the character thing as being all that good, but I could work out. Ya Never know. This is a Plus as Scoop and the Pirate have illustrated. so what if the negative from last year was much bigger. its some crumbs we're being thrown. If Disney gets a positive response, then maybe WDW managment will be able to get some more concessions out of Burbank.
This is a War it seems between the local manamgent and Burbank and this is a specific Battle. I for one want local managment to win. crying about how foolish Disney is is so 2000. Been there done that. Nothing has changed, its just the more people have hit their breaking point.



That's all I got to say see you when Eisner is out a here.

 

[Tik Tok]

Originally posted by thedscoop
So, what are some solutions. Some real world cold reality business solutions. Not pie in the sky "Gee Disney should colonize Mars" ideas.

Real world cold harsh executable solutions to the cold harsh business realites AV pointed out.

I think the only way we would ever be able to really come up with some real solutions would be if we actually knew some of the specifics about where the money goes at WDW. I mean, they have all these parks, hotels, restaurants, etc, etc that make money -- where's it all going if it's not enough to support a fully operational WDW??

I'm pretty sure that most of it is going elsewhere in the company, and WDW is being made to suffer because of it. But until we actually know some numbers, there's really no way to make any useful "real world" suggestions. And I suppose that's really the heart of the problems at WDW -- dealing with the rest of the vast and mostly troubled Walt Disney Company.

 

[d-r]

Originally posted by Eeyore2U
This is my impression of the the regulars of this board.

"We surrender! We surrender!"

 

[Luv2Roam]

d-r -- LOL!
Which curmudgeon can I be?!?

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I couldn’t stay out of it any longer. Now there's a good chance that Scoop ain’t gonna bother, as he often avoids... ah... well... conversations with me. But Scoop! If you’re listening, please give it some thought. I am very serious.

Yes, these "adds" would not restore hours to pre-199whatever levels. In a best case scenario they would.

However, they do restore some hours and that is better than none being restored.

Scoop, are you always willing to settle, with everything in your life, or just when it comes to Disney? Either that or you’re on their payrool. To be quite honest, I haven’t figured out which one yet!

However, I'm realistic enough to appreciate the small steps toward a larger goal.

Perhaps our goals are different? It could be, you know.

Maybe the step is quick or far enough, but I applaud WDW management for figuring out a way to even take a step in the current Disney budget turmoil.

See!!!! I was right!! We do have different goals. You’re satisfied (not only satisfied, mind you, but “applaud”, no less!!) with some crumbs that WDW management are able to salvage. I, on the other hand, would like to get to the root of the problem and ask why we are in this “current Disney budget turmoil”. Do you see the difference?

it seems odd that those of us who continue to stick with the company (apologists?) are the only ones who appreciate incremental changes toward improvement.

Now, you’ve got to be kidding!!!?!?! Do you really think that any of us, even those... ahhhh... well... whatever Steve called us, don’t like those baby steps forward? Do you really think that we don’t want to see some positive, no matter how small? Just because we want, no, INSIST(!!) on seeing some more “reinstatements” does not make us evil, non-thinking, bashers!! We appreciate it too!! It just ain't near enough!!

I don't care if you put Katz, Green, or even yourself at the helm tommorrow at 6am PST, the truth is that reduced hours, no EE, whatever, won't be reestablished overnight.

But while this regime is ensconced, there is no hope at all!!! Surely you can see that?! And those measly little crumbs that WDW is tossing our way is still - - - simply not enough!

To me, the only thing sadder than a cut itself is when certain segments work hard to begin to restore that cut only to be met with complaints.

Why do you have a hard time differentiating between WDW management and Burbank? You don’t have any trouble when you tell us who does what! So tell me why you find it sad that we aren’t “beholding” to DISNEY for the lousy bone they throw us. NOT WDW MANAGEMENT, but DISNEY!!! Can’t you see the difference? I hold DISNEY responsible.

When the buses are overcrowd, belching smoke and are, well, UN-MAGICAL, I complain!!!! Do you assume that I am complaining to the individual Bus Drivers? Do you think for one minute that I mean the supervisor in charge of the terminal? Do you really think, that I think, that the VP in charge of transportation really has a say in offering different and magical transportation options to the guests? Or even that the head of WDW has much of a say? NO!!!!!!!!!!!! It’s the head!!! Like a famous general once said: If you cut off it’s head, it dies!! I’m talking about management! TOP management! And the little leeway they give local management doesn’t matter one little hill of beans in the grand scheme of things! Now, surely you can see that!!!!

Thus, for me at least, incremental improvements show me a behind the scenes effort at improving the guest experience.

You say one thing and yet, in the very next paragraph, by example, absolutely refute your own argument!!! YOU’RE DRIVING ME NUTS MR. SCOOP!!!!

You say that these little things shows you that incrementally, over time, they are striving to make our experience better!! Fair enough!! You fill me with hope!! It’s that one tiny step forward you’re talking about!! GREAT!!!!

BUT....

Here's another example:

Burbank recently mandated a ticket increase at WDW to achieve a certain revenue level. Well, certain WDW types were able to achieve that revenue level without raising all ticket prices.

IF “BURBANK” HAD A CLUE AS TO HOW TO RUN DISNEY THEY WOULDN’T HAVE MANDATED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!

And that’s who I’m complaining to and about! You see, THERE (in Burbank) is the problem!!! Not the CM that stands guard outside the treehouse or wakes up the bird in the Tiki House. And, surprise, surprise!! I’m NOT talking about WDW middle or even upper management! I’m talking about BURBANK!!! Is there any other cause for this nonsense!?!?!




And now a break from Mr. Scoop (for a minute or two). We need to turn our attention to My Liege - Lord Voice!!

They want value for their money, not whines about how some accountants work isn’t appreciated. NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE WORKINGS OF DISNEY WHEN THE CREDIT CARD GETS SWIPED. All they see that ticket prices went up and hours went down. Burbank, Orlando, Mars – it doesn’t matter.

Now, I’m not about to argue regarding the substance! My goodness!! NO!! His substance is PERFECT (as usual)!! It’s his style I question!! It’s the first time I recall him ever SHOUTING!!! (look at all those upper case letter!!)

So, a couple of suggestions, if I may. As long as you’re getting emotional (or at least strong) anyway, I think it would read better as:

They want VALUE (!!) for their money, not whines about how some accountants work isn’t appreciated!!! NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE WORKINGS OF DISNEY WHEN THE CREDIT CARD GETS SWIPED. All they see that ticket prices went up and hours went down!!! Burbank, Orlando, Mars – it doesn’t matter!!!!!!!!!!

There! Isn’t that nicer!?!




OK, back to Scoop!

On the other hand, if guests apathetically say "Who cares anyway" then that simply supports the bean counters argument.

Now, who was it that said that if they ever lost their audience they’d have to work ten times harder at getting them back? Now let me see... who was that again?

And guess what Scoop. They’ve lost (YES PAST TENSE) LOST a good majority of their audience. So it’s time to work TEN TIMES HARDER!!! It ain’t gonna happen - “incrementally”! And only some very naive about the Disney experience would think so! But they are rather naive out in Burbank, aren’t they? Or maybe they’re just plain stupid!!

We can all toss around lines about people "speaking with their wallets" but merely recognizing that fact hardly goes anywhere toward resolving it.

I can ‘resolve’ it rather quickly. KICK THE BUMS OUT!! It’s really that simple! And we’d be no worse off. Perhaps no better oof, that’s true. But certainly no worse off!!

Screw Pixie Dust on this issue because that doesn't pay the light bills. The cold hard business reality is that Disney attendance is down and the cold hard reality is that merely recognizing and endlessly repeating that fact isn't going to change it.

You go on to ask for specifics!

Scoop! This time I’m really worried. You don’t really propose that we collectively brainstorm ideas that can salvage the company and Disney is going to listen to us, are you? Sorry, my man! I usually like to play with you. You make me think. But this!?!?! This is just a tad too silly for me!! But it did give me a good laugh!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by Another Voice
The average guest does not care about budget battles with Burbank.

The average guest does not care about minor replacements prentending to be major additions.

The average guest does not care about “some is better than nothing”.

The average guest does not care about what’s realistic due to corporate politics.

All the average guest cares about is the serious decline in the value for their vacation dollar.

All the excuses, rationalizations and apologists in the world will not convince a single one of those individuals to drop the cash to visits WDW until that issue is corrected.

The average guest doesn't spend as much time fretting over much of what we discuss around here. The average guest goes and has a magical time. The average person who falls prey to the chickens and doesn't bother to go never knows what a magical time they missed. Sure, as I mentioned before, the magic has tarnished from what it was 3/5/10/20/30 years ago, but it is still a magical time. That was my point in my earlier post - that was the perspective some need to maintain. Yeah, more people may be drawn back to Disney if they take strides to restore the better days, but even today most people had a great time and I doubt many regretted the trip.

 

[raidermatt]

The average guest doesn't spend as much time fretting over much of what we discuss around here. The average guest goes and has a magical time.

You're right about the "fretting". But while most don't fret about it, a large enough percentage of them are not coming back as often. The fact that they don't fret over the specifics doesn't mean those specifics are not what changed their mind.

For instance, they may not realize that October hours were set 11% lower than last October. But what they do realize is that MK closed "earlier this time".

They remember how beautiful Cinderella's Castle and Main Street were at night. But this time, instead of being able to see that 2, 3 or maybe even 4 days during their week's stay, they only saw it once. Or maybe they visited during the week when MK had a "private event" on Saturday and closed at 6:00, and they NEVER got to see MK at night.

So, no, they don't fret over the decisions. They just react to them, by going somewhere else next time.


Now, its possible that the testing that is being done will result in some positive changes for guests. But its very difficult to be optimistic about how significant those changes will be, given current management's track record.

We know they gave very little consideration to guest opinion when they made all of the entertainment/hours cuts. All we can hope now is that the lowered attendance (and therefore profits) will force them to do it.

But regardless, it still seems clear that they aren't grasping the concept that things can generate a profit without having a direct revenue stream tied to them. Nobody goes and drops a 20 spot in a can when they see Cinderella's Castle lit up. But to say that sight is not profitable for Disney is as short-sighted as it gets...

 

[d-r]

"Or maybe they visited during the week when MK had a "private event" on Saturday and closed at 6:00, and they NEVER got to see MK at night."

FWIW, night of joy isn't a private event, it is a hard ticketed event though. Also, fwiw, when we were there last year during night of joy there were a ton of people checking into the resort we were at that were there for night of joy.

DR

 

[raidermatt]

FWIW, night of joy isn't a private event, it is a hard ticketed event though.

Fair enough, the family is forced to pay for the option of being in the park at night on their only chance to do so.

Also, fwiw, when we were there last year during night of joy there were a ton of people checking into the resort we were at that were there for night of joy.

And I'm sure there are plenty of events that could be planned that would attract "tons of people". But WDW's bread and butter is still those who aren't there for a specific event or convention, and its the bread and butter that have their experience diminished by having to pay for extra tickets, on top of already reduced hours.

 

[roymccoy]

raidermatt

Roy

 

[airlarry!]

I dunno, Scoop, but I thought LB made some good points about settling.

If your child, an A+ student, came home with Cs on the report card, you'd be upset too, right?

And then on the next card, they raised them up to C+. Would you give a little praise? Maybe. Would you still be disappointed?

I would.

Because I know that your child could do better than that. Raising a C to a C+ is an improvement, in the literal sense of the word. But against the standard of the A+, it means nothing.

For many of us, WDW gets an A+ on our vacation report card, and has been for many, many years. Lately, though, it seems like WDW has not been concentrating (read: Burbank is siphoning off needed funds for expansion and amenities to prop up other aspects of the company) as hard as it used to and is getting C grades, particularly in their recent 'value' hotel offerings, its cutting of budget for entertainment, hours, etc, and in its meager plans for addition and expansion.

What you and our friend the Pirate call 'improvements' in other people's eyes are baby steps back to The Disney Standard. Baby steps are fine for babies, but I can't get overly worked up about a grown adult taking them.

I'm like Yoho! here. Wake me up when Ei$ner is out, or I see conclusive proof that this company is going to support its hard-working Cast Members in Florida and California with quality additions, expansions, and entertainment. I'm frustrated because, as a shareholder and a guy who likes to go there every so often, I am upset that the company would sacrifice both its long-term profits, the long-term goodwill of its business, and the long-term loyalty of its dedicated cast members in an effort to either boost the stock price or prop up Ei$ner's regime.

I am no half-empty glass person. Clever epithets sometimes disguise the truth. I am a guy who expects WDW to be an A+ resort, and Cs won't cut it, mister man.