Going to see Elder Attorney... Help me with the questions I need to ask..

[LovesTimone]

So as some of you know.

I am the care giver for my parents, as well as POA....

This year has been more than challenging. They both have serious health problems, and several hospital stays, one in ICU for 10 days... nothing to do with Covid... Trying to have the hard conversations with them trying to get them to understand that we need to deal with things now, and not later... They are very resistant to everything.

So finally I approached them with the reality of the financial aspects, if one of them was to have to go to a nursing home, explaining how that all works, with Social Security, and my Dad's small pensions. So I basically said, okay if you are wanting to stay in the house, show me on paper, how I can make that happen. If one of you has to go into a nursing home... I won't go into all the drama, Thankfully.... finally.... I got through to them...so we ( both my parents and myself) have an appointment to go see the Elder Attorney next month. They are now wanting to put me on the bank accounts, and want my name on the house as well. I need to be able to protect them and their assets...so that one of them doesn't end up without a penny to live on...or not even enough to cover the cost of the medication that they take.

I want them to move closer to me... so that I can be around more and help them more... right now I am driving 130 miles RT, and that's without all the doctors appointments and errand running that I do... If they sell the house and move into a 55 community, they want to gift me the money so that everything will be in my name , the house, and bank accounts with them being able to access the bank account. ... I don't even know if that is something that is possible, I know that there is a time frame, I think 5 years or something... and I really need to know what and how something like this would effect my DH and I, taxes - credit - and whatever else I am not aware of...

So I what I need to do is make sure that I have my list of questions to ask the attorney...
I need all the help I can get... I'm need to make the most out of this appointment, and I want to make sure that I don't miss anything...

What would you ask? or if you have been through this, what did you wish you would have known, or asked or had information about.?

As always... Thanks so much...

 

[mousefan73]

I would first go in with a clear plan on what you guys wanna do which it seems like you have already gone over game plans. Maybe go in with a few options and ask the lawyer on the tax implications are for each option and then maybe make a final decision based using that information.

For example is there a tax difference between gifting versus inheriting. If they were to buy a home in a retirement community with there be a benefit or disadvantage if they kept that in their name or if they gift it to you and put it in your name. What are the risks and benefits of having things in peoples names.

One question I personally would have is what does power of attorney actually mean? . Especially if your parents are crossing state lines to move to you? Does power of attorney change in details? Does it include all aspects of their life such as medical decisions, financial decisions, end of life decisions etc.

 

[macraven]

I understand what you are going through
I was the poa for my parental units and it streamlined everything for me
Their financial and medical needs were all handled by me

it’s better to get it set up while they do not have serious issues

I had a 650 round trip drive to their house and went every weekend as I was still working.
When their health failed, moved them to my town and it was for the best for all of us.

Send me a pm anytime if you have questions.

 

[LovesTimone]

I would first go in with a clear plan on what you guys wanna do which it seems like you have already gone over game plans. Maybe go in with a few options and ask the lawyer on the tax implications are for each option and then maybe make a final decision based using that information.

For example is there a tax difference between gifting versus inheriting. If they were to buy a home in a retirement community with there be a benefit or disadvantage if they kept that in their name or if they gift it to you and put it in your name. What are the risks and benefits of having things in peoples names.

One question I personally would have is what does power of attorney actually mean? . Especially if your parents are crossing state lines to move to you? Does power of attorney change in details? Does it include all aspects of their life such as medical decisions, financial decisions, end of life decisions etc.

We all live in Florida... As the POA - I am able to make medical, financial decision if they are not able to make them, or if they mentally are not able, with if they have dementia or Alzheimer.. as well as making the end of life decision if they were on life support... I know what their wishes are... as well they both have a DNR already... I have all the paper work, for that, as well as the last will and testaments, I am executor of both their wills.

 

[LovesTimone]

I understand what you are going through
I was the poa for my parental units and it streamlined everything for me
Their financial and medical needs were all handled by me

it’s better to get it set up while they do not have serious issues

I had a 650 round trip drive to their house and went every weekend as I was still working.
When their health failed, moved them to my town and it was for the best for all of us.

Send me a pm anytime if you have questions.

Thank you...

We are just at the beginning of whats to come...
So that's why I really want to get this handle now, so we all have peace of mind...

 

[skeeter31]

Gifting to you will cause issues if they go into a NH within the next 5 years, as will any other gifts they have made within that time period. You will want to ask about trusts. That’s the safer way to try and shield their assets from Medicaid when it comes to NH stays. If they’re already having health issues the threat of a NH is probably a real issue within the next 5 years so you don’t want to take any chances with gifting.

I know it doesn’t help you in your situation, but to others reading this, it’s very important to have these financial discussions with your parents when they’re younger. We set everything up with trusts and life estates with my parents when they hit 60 so it was far removed from any look back period for Medicaid for NH stays.

 

[Sarah'sMomfrom PA]

About 1 1/2 years ago, we went to see an elder attorney so that we could protect our assets from a nursing home. We set up our wills; POA's and medical POA for my daughter since she is our only child. We put all of our assets (house; life insurance policies; stocks; savings accounts) into an irrevocable trust with my daughter as the trustee. Unfortunately, as far as protecting your assets from the nursing home costs, there is a 5 year look back so if they gave you the money outright, it would have to be 5 years before they would need the nursing home care. There are several options (of which we didn't take advantage of since we are no where near needing nursing home care) and I think that the attorney can suggest some sort of annuity that would protect their assets (home, etc.) but since we did not do this, I really can't tell you any details but that is why you are going to the attorney. Right now, I don't own any assets (except our retirement accounts because you cannot put these in an irrevocable trust). Our trust owns everything (house taxes and everything else comes "In care of the Irrevocable Trust"). If we want to sell our house or get money out of our accounts, my daughter as the trustee just has to do this. If we buy another house, the trust sells our house and buys the new house and it doesn't affect the 5 year plan. I think the cost to do all of this was around $6500.00 but it gave us piece of mind that should we need nursing home care, my daughter wouldn't have to worry about anything (she lives in a different state than us). Hope this helps somewhat!

 

[hertamaniac]

You should inquire about spend down limits and options. In some cases, upgrades to a primary residence qualifies as a spend down without it going to a NH. Also, prepaying funeral and final resting place(s) are also qualified.

Trusts can be a good financial vehicle depending on how it is set-up. If I were you, I would inquire about the pros/cons on them with your elder law attorney. I did this years ago (and other financial maneuvers) to ensure we wouldn't be subject to a look back period.

 

[LovesTimone]

Gifting to you will cause issues if they go into a NH within the next 5 years, as will any other gifts they have made within that time period. You will want to ask about trusts. That’s the safer way to try and shield their assets from Medicaid when it comes to NH stays. If they’re already having health issues the threat of a NH is probably a real issue within the next 5 years so you don’t want to take any chances with gifting.

I know it doesn’t help you in your situation, but to others reading this, it’s very important to have these financial discussions with your parents when they’re younger. We set everything up with trusts and life estates with my parents when they hit 60 so it was far removed from any look back period for Medicaid for NH stays.

Thank you... The trust question just went on the list...

 

[LovesTimone]

About 1 1/2 years ago, we went to see an elder attorney so that we could protect our assets from a nursing home. We set up our wills; POA's and medical POA for my daughter since she is our only child. We put all of our assets (house; life insurance policies; stocks; savings accounts) into an irrevocable trust with my daughter as the trustee. Unfortunately, as far as protecting your assets from the nursing home costs, there is a 5 year look back so if they gave you the money outright, it would have to be 5 years before they would need the nursing home care. There are several options (of which we didn't take advantage of since we are no where near needing nursing home care) and I think that the attorney can suggest some sort of annuity that would protect their assets (home, etc.) but since we did not do this, I really can't tell you any details but that is why you are going to the attorney. Right now, I don't own any assets (except our retirement accounts because you cannot put these in an irrevocable trust). Our trust owns everything (house taxes and everything else comes "In care of the Irrevocable Trust"). If we want to sell our house or get money out of our accounts, my daughter as the trustee just has to do this. If we buy another house, the trust sells our house and buys the new house and it doesn't affect the 5 year plan. I think the cost to do all of this was around $6500.00 but it gave us piece of mind that should we need nursing home care, my daughter wouldn't have to worry about anything (she lives in a different state than us). Hope this helps somewhat!

Thank you... I am putting irrevocable trust in highlights on the list...

 

[mjkacmom]

What I found difficult was NH rules. My dad had Alzheimer’s, he had home care for 3 years. We were actually planning on putting him into a home when he was down to his last $300,000, because the nicer places wanted at least 3 years of private care in order to be eligible for a Medicare bed. However, I still don’t know how it would’ve worked out, his SS and pension were very slightly over the Medicare limit (he passed away, his wake was on the same day as my appointment with the NS (had visited earlier). My sister and I owned 1/3 of his home (set up 8 years earlier), I was POA and on his bank accounts (and paid bills, grocery shopped, took care of home repairs, took him to appointments).

 

[Sarah'sMomfrom PA]

You can pre-pay for their funerals so some of their money can go towards that and if I am not mistaken, you as POA will be able to spend some of their money each month for their needs. The 5 year look back period is not something that you can hide but them putting the house or savings accounts in your name (not implying that you are trying to hide anything) but I know someone who just went through this with their mother and the amount of paperwork that they had to provide was crazy and certainly not what you need to be focusing on. Good luck in whatever you choose to do but I do think that moving them closer to both you and your DH is a great idea and one that will be beneficial since they are both willing to do this. Having them 65 miles away is worrisome especially if something were to happen where you needed to get there in a hurry.

 

[LovesTimone]

You should inquire about spend down limits and options. In some cases, upgrades to a primary residence qualifies as a spend down without it going to a NH. Also, prepaying funeral and final resting place(s) are also qualified.

Trusts can be a good financial vehicle depending on how it is set-up. If I were you, I would inquire about the pros/cons on them with your elder law attorney. I did this years ago (and other financial maneuvers) to ensure we wouldn't be subject to a look back period.

Thank you...

I did address the final resting place, both my parents want to be cremated... so that is another thing to put on the list.

 

[hertamaniac]

Also, inquire about if a/the primary residence is subject or qualified as an asset for NH purposes. Depending on the state, it does vary. We live in Florida and you may want to check on your state's regulations.

 

[Sarah'sMomfrom PA]

And definitely ask the lawyer about some sort of annuity that you can get "to skirt the 5 year look back rules". Again, we didn't need to do this but I have been to several elder law presentations prior to going with this firm and every one of them mentioned that it is never too late to so something. We did the irrevocable trust because in some instances, when your money runs out, they can go to your children and have them be responsible for payment for your nursing home costs. We did not want this to happen. We have saved all of our lives and watched our spending so why should the nursing home get it. You know darn well that many wealthy Americans have similar situations taken care of...they hire top notch attorneys so that they don't have to pay lots of taxes and they certainly skirt the rules.

 

[LovesTimone]

You can pre-pay for their funerals so some of their money can go towards that and if I am not mistaken, you as POA will be able to spend some of their money each month for their needs. The 5 year look back period is not something that you can hide but them putting the house or savings accounts in your name (not implying that you are trying to hide anything) but I know someone who just went through this with their mother and the amount of paperwork that they had to provide was crazy and certainly not what you need to be focusing on. Good luck in whatever you choose to do but I do think that moving them closer to both you and your DH is a great idea and one that will be beneficial since they are both willing to do this. Having them 65 miles away is worrisome especially if something were to happen where you needed to get there in a hurry.

Thank you...

I know with the look back period, we have to be careful. No not trying to hide anything, and did not take it as such, just want to know and plan ahead and what the rules are. I know when my friends mom passed, it was a complete nightmare, several wills, bank accounts, money that they did not even know about, which could have helped pay for home care early on... unpaid bills and the hospital bills were heart stopping... on top of all that... The amount of paper work, I suggested she see an Elder attorney right away, they took over and streamlined the process for them. It did cost quite a bit, a few thousand dollars, she said it was worth it...

 

[china mom]

Here are a couple of things I picked up when facing the same situation.

Your parents can each gift each of you $15,000 per year without tax penalty. this includes your children. Therefore, your father and mother each give you and your husband $15K, that is $60K per year.

BUT... when it comes to medicaid. there is a five year lookback. Essentially, people are expected to use their own money for care and when it runs out, they become eligible for medicaid. Medicaid is medical support for people without money.

Medicaid will look at your parents finances going back five years and if there was money that they gave away to hide it, there will be an elimination period before care is given. So, if they gave you $1,000 last year, and the nursing facility costs $1,ooo a month, your parent would be required to wait one month before entering the nursing home.

Mom moved in with me and the house needed to be remodeled to fit her needs. Instead of her giving me cash and me using that to pay the contractor, I had her pay the contractor directly because money she spent on herself was not included in the five year lookback. I don't know if that plan would have worked because mom didn't end up needing medicaid but that was what was recommended to me.

My mother was widowed so I did not have to worry about the spouse but there are protections in place so that a spouse does not end up on the street.

Please join the caregiver forum at https://www.agingcare.com/caregiver-forum. They were a lifesaver for me.

 

[LovesTimone]

Also, inquire about if a/the primary residence is subject or qualified as an asset for NH purposes. Depending on the state, it does vary. We live in Florida and you may want to check on your state's regulations.

Thanks another good question to ask...

We all live in Florida... and I know when my granny passed away at 97, my uncle who was in charge, was smart he had a attorney the whole time, and stayed informed... and kept up with all the paper work... he a file cabinet dedicated to just my granny's paper work... He stayed on top of the bills... to which, several and I mean several times, they are constantly billing and billing and re-billing then the double billing... for medical, and then the nursing home... it was a nightmare... he created a system and a form for himself to keep up with it all... as they tried charging for therapy she received a week or more after she passed away, not therapy that she got before she died, and she had not been to therapy in months... charging for laundry when my either my parent or my uncle and his wife did it, lots of stuff to look at, oh and for medicine she did not even take or that was prescribe by the doctor.. While that mistakes happen, it was a constant battle for him to deal with. So once the attorney got involved with all this non-sense it was easier for him to manage, and get things removed from the bills...

 

[hertamaniac]

Thanks another good question to ask...

We all live in Florida... and I know when my granny passed away at 97, my uncle who was in charge, was smart he had a attorney the whole time, and stayed informed... and kept up with all the paper work... he a file cabinet dedicated to just my granny's paper work... He stayed on top of the bills... to which, several and I mean several times, they are constantly billing and billing and re-billing then the double billing... for medical, and then the nursing home... it was a nightmare... he created a system and a form for himself to keep up with it all... as they tried charging for therapy she received a week or more after she passed away, not therapy that she got before she died, and she had not been to therapy in months... charging for laundry when my either my parent or my uncle and his wife did it, lots of stuff to look at, oh and for medicine she did not even take or that was prescribe by the doctor.. While that mistakes happen, it was a constant battle for him to deal with. So once the attorney got involved with all this non-sense it was easier for him to manage, and get things removed from the bills...

Last time I checked the primary residence limit was $585K in Florida for Medicaid.

 

[cabanafrau]

First, the lawyer can only serve the interests of one client -- your parents as a couple are fine, but the lawyer cannot serve both their interests and yours. That's not to say that there should or would be disregard of impact of different actions on you, but if this is going to be legal counsel for the purposes of estate planning for your parents that's whose interest the lawyer will be retained to protect.

Your parents need to be able to talk with the attorney and as clearly as possible outline what goals they're looking to achieve. Things can become problematic if clear intentions do not come from them and seem to be led by an outside force such as you. You should be prepared to be transportation only, with your parents meeting privately with the attorney to get the ball rolling. The attorney may bring you in at a certain point where your input is important regarding your agreement to accept certain responsibilities. If your parents cannot and will not be able to get the ball rolling with the attorney independently there may be some obstacles to the process.

Generally trusts are set up when assets involved reach a certain threshold. A great many people of average means are not able to utilize trusts as vehicles of estate planning for that reason.

IME the handoff of the bank funds outright will be problematic on many levels. The attorney will advise as to that. If there is to be a handoff, that is something where you may want to seek your own legal representation, both for legal and tax purposes. Depending on the laws and bank policies where your parents are it may make sense to add you to their account(s) as a convenience signer. This allows you to easily conduct their business. Sometimes banks are reluctant to be very cooperative with someone who has a POA but is not named on an account. Being named a convenience signer, or as an additional owner to the account outright, with a POA clears the path.