Gator grabs 2 year old at Grand Floridian?

[LizzyS]

Bottom line is, a horrible ACCIDENT occurred. Because of this ACCIDENT, some things will most likely change at Disney, like the warning signs. NOW, these signs are probably warranted. My issue is with the "shame on Disney! They should have known better!" or the "They are only looking out for their wallet!" crowd. The risk was so low prior to this ACCIDENT that there was not really a need for said warnings. Especially considering that said signage can have the opposite effect of drawing even more attention to the alligators than needed by thrill seekers(or bored teens). You ARE in a theme park where you will have a disproportionate number of said thrill seekers than in the general populace. So, you weight the risk with the reward. Now that the risk has increased, yes Disney should and most likely will add warnings.

I totally agree with this.

 

[Aurora0427]

It all starts with familiarity with alligators. Less than a month ago I went to a man made lake where guests had access to pay for food dispensers to throw food into a lake to feed fish. The last time I went to the alligator farm in St. Augustin you could buy food to throw to the gators. The responsibility is on Disney to set and enforce the rules on their property. If Disney knew guests played in the water and or fed alligators without acting, it does not help their case.

I'm not talking about the legality. I'm talking about common sense. It doesn't take an alligator expert to know that alligators are predators and that it's probably a bad idea to feed them. Like I said, stuck on stupid. My 5 year old just told me she thinks feeding an alligator is a bad idea. So she's more intelligent than the moronic adults feeding the gators at WDW.

Your post about going to an alligator farm to feed gators doesn't really equate with stupid tourists feeding alligators at WDW. An alligator farm is a controlled environment.

I'm by no means an expert on lions, but I sure as hec wouldn't try to feed one on safari.

 

[Aurora0427]

I just read that 2 of the trapped gators were 7 feet long. That's shocking to me as I was always told they remove them well before that. I've seen big ones in the golf course at Shades of Green so I have to wonder if they came from over there. I want to know the truth though in regards to if they are being as diligent as they have always been. I mean we all know there have been cutbacks and I pray this tragedy is not a result of something like that.

Are the gators aggressive on the golf courses? That would freak me out. My dad is a big golfer and he's seen them out on courses throughout the south before. I'll have to ask him wth he does when you see one...

 

[jimsanfilippo]

I just read that 2 of the trapped gators were 7 feet long. That's shocking to me as I was always told they remove them well before that. I've seen big ones in the golf course at Shades of Green so I have to wonder if they came from over there. I want to know the truth though in regards to if they are being as diligent as they have always been. I mean we all know there have been cutbacks and I pray this tragedy is not a result of something like that.

I'm willing to bet the family's lawyers will find out, but we never will.

 

[rileyz]

Are the gators aggressive on the golf courses? That would freak me out. My dad is a big golfer and he's seen them out on courses throughout the south before. I'll have to ask him wth he does when you see one...

I've only seen them from a vehicle. I assume golfers keep their distance and I'm pretty sure the gators are just sunning during the day. Disney will never be 100% able to remove them but they should have better signage and probably some sort of deterrent, if possible. More and more stories coming out about sighting at other resorts as well.

 

[LSLS]

I just read that 2 of the trapped gators were 7 feet long. That's shocking to me as I was always told they remove them well before that. I've seen big ones in the golf course at Shades of Green so I have to wonder if they came from over there. I want to know the truth though in regards to if they are being as diligent as they have always been. I mean we all know there have been cutbacks and I pray this tragedy is not a result of something like that.

They do if they can (Fish and Wildlife have a cutoff at 4 feet). That said, they can be difficult to catch, so they could evade capture for a while. Also, gators don't stay in one water body (especially during mating season), so it is probably likely the gators migrated into the lake fairly recently.

 

[mcjaco]

Or as I posted before, if there is one shred of evidence that stronger warning signs were frowned upon due to theming, they are going to lose quickly in the court of public opinion.

Except with those talking about bathtubs and coffee.

The court of public opinion has no bearing in this. Only the law of Torts.

The alligator population in Florida has tripled in the last 30 years. 40 years ago they were almost extinct and were placed on the endangered species list. Just to keep the record straight. WDW wasn't built on entirely on swampland and the alligators there now aren't reclaiming their ancestral home. If I'm guessing, I'm guessing the population density of alligators there has rarely, if ever, been higher because the predators that eat their young have all but vanished.

That said, and as much as i stand by my kill them all stance, I think there are a couple of misconceptions going on here. The first is that more signage would have made any difference. Unless the sign said that splashing attracts alligators, no one would assume that a warning about the dangers of alligators would include wading. The entire event is inconceivable to a parent, and almost to that extent for Disney. It's not a natural jump to make, and if someone is going to let their kid wade, then a sign telling there are alligators in the water is unlikely to dissuade them unless it gives a specific reason. if you're talking about more signage, all you're really suggesting is that Disney do more to limit its liability, and that's not high on my list of priorities.

The second misconception is that this is a major problem, and enough of a problem for Disney to change their landscape. it's not. It's a tragedy, and its regrettable, but it's the definition of a fluke occurrence. Alligators are lazy, stupid creatures and they, for the most part, like easier prey than even small kids. They don't like sandy beaches because sand is hard to get out from under scales and its harder to hide on sand than in weeds. And one big enough to get a child is usually big enough for WDW's team to find and remove (or, hopefully, kill). They aren't smart enough to hunt or stalk; they exist purely on instinct. So the fears of people in deep water being attacked by them aren't necessarily valid, because the only time alligators are in deep water is going from one feeding spot to another -- they stick to shore because that's where the food is. And I'm pretty sure the boat operators keep people away from the weeds and the shallows, so the stupid alligators wouldn't see a swimmer in deep water as food. Plus, they stay away from noise. The only time I've ever heard of an alligator attacking in deep water was them pursuing a dog from the beach, and the dog was being listed into a rowboat. And even then the thing left once the dog was out of the water.

And, as much as I dislike them, even I have to admit that an alligator attacking a person is beyond rare. So making adjustments based on their actual behavior and history isn't a reasonable response.

They are scary and scary looking, their presence is enough to discourage people from using lakes and fresh waterways, and that sucks. There are too many of them and that sucks. But the actual danger they represent to humans is minuscule. Anything short of mass exterminations won't do anything to affect the situation; anything else is just propaganda and window dressing. The idea of signs and seawalls and even getting rid of beaches or beach-related events is just so people think WDW is doing something, even if that something has little to do with the actual situation.

So with the population of alligators growing at a great rate, along with the level of guests at WDW, the odds are still ridiculously low of this happening. They're trending together.

As pointed out 33 times, which I'm sure you've read, no one knows if he was swimming. That is up for interpretation. If the sign said stay out of the water, you'd have a point.

Having a car seat is the law. So again, not seeing a point......

And there are those who don't put their kids in car seats too. Stupid is, as stupid does.

Think I'm bowing out of this. Everything that can be said, has been said.

New signage will go up. Beachfront procedures and events will change. They'll likely make changes to their wildlife program as well. End of story.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Do I advocate the suppression of thought and wisdom? Whatever, I see a thread getting out of hand. I would think that with your 9000+ posts, you would be able to recognize that. Less prayer? Perhaps more prayer is needed. Largely respectful- Thats what I am talking about.

Nope...I disagree with both your stance and your methodology...

But that's ok...because it's an open forum here

 

[WhoDat09]

Are the gators aggressive on the golf courses? That would freak me out. My dad is a big golfer and he's seen them out on courses throughout the south before. I'll have to ask him wth he does when you see one...

I've never seen one on a Disney golf course, but living in Louisiana and playing golf frequently, I've had many times where we would encounter a gator. Nearly every time(probably 50 or so and up to 12 feet long)) that we've seen one, they get scared and immediately go into the water as we approach. A few times they stayed on the land sunbathing, but never showed any aggression in the least. I've also grown up fishing in marshes and swamps and the same thing happens generally. In all of my experiences with gators, they are more scared of us than we are of them.

 

[romitaz]

More and more stories coming out about sighting at other resorts as well.

As more of these encounter stories surface, and there almost certainly will be more, it would be good to remember the nature of people when given the chance at their 15 minutes of fame. Our capacity for embellishment seems to have no bounds. It is a symptom of the ME TOO society that we live in.

 

[LaidBackDad]

You honestly think you can eliminate gators from 43 square miles and particularly reclaimed swampland and keep gators out permanently, without hurting surrounding environments?

Yes, and it is actually done frequently, relatively quickly, and inexpensively. The question isn't whether or not it can be done. That answer is of course it can be done, that part is not hard. The question is; should it be done? That is where many people will disagree. Will people continue to dismiss this tragedy as a freak accident; or, will people take necessary measures to eradicate the gators from WDW and ensure that this kind of thing never happens again? I can only hope we don't forget this tragedy so it doesn't happen to another family.

 

[romitaz]

I've never seen one on a Disney golf course, but living in Louisiana and playing golf frequently, I've had many times where we would encounter a gator. Nearly every time(probably 50 or so and up to 12 feet long)) that we've seen one, they get scared and immediately go into the water as we approach. A few times they stayed on the land sunbathing, but never showed any aggression in the least. I've also grown up fishing in marshes and swamps and the same thing happens generally. In all of my experiences with gators, they are more scared of us than we are of them.

It sounds like we grew up chewing a lot of the same dirt. I have been around them all of my life. Most of the time, they see you and poof are gone.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm not sure when the first photo was taken but you were allowed in the water at one point.

Come on...those were Eisner era stock pictures...

The only thing they take pictures of now are $69 cupcakes

 

[romitaz]

Yes, and it is actually done frequently, relatively quickly, and inexpensively. The question isn't whether or not it can be done. That answer is, simply is of course it can be done, that part is not hard. The question is; should it be done? That is where many people will disagree. Will people continue to dismiss this tragedy as a freak accident; or, will people take necessary measures to eradicate the gators from WDW and ensure that this kind of thing never happens again? I can only hope we don't forget this tragedy so it doesn't happen to another family.

QUE??? This is even a question? I'm going to have to give this one an emphatic, NO. How about we don't attempt to create a species collapse. K? Thanks.

 

[LSLS]

Yes, and it is actually done frequently, relatively quickly, and inexpensively. The question isn't whether or not it can be done. That answer is, simply is of course it can be done, that part is not hard. The question is; should it be done? That is where many people will disagree. Will people continue to dismiss this tragedy as a freak accident; or, will people take necessary measures to eradicate the gators from WDW and ensure that this kind of thing never happens again? I can only hope we don't forget this tragedy so it doesn't happen to another family.

That is simply not true. Beyond the logistics of being impossible to completely eliminate them permanently due to their migrations, it is illegal to remove gators under 4 feet except where they are causing legit problems.

 

[2009CAN]

The court of public opinion has no bearing in this. Only the law of Torts.



So with the population of alligators growing at a great rate, along with the level of guests at WDW, the odds are still ridiculously low of this happening. They're trending together.



And there are those who don't put their kids in car seats too. Stupid is, as stupid does.

Think I'm bowing out of this. Everything that can be said, has been said.

New signage will go up. Beachfront procedures and events will change. They'll likely make changes to their wildlife program as well. End of story.

I just wanted to say that I have appreciated reading your posts and your unique perspective from your former job.

 

[caffeinegirl47]

I actually think we've overlooked another very important issue regarding Disney's liability, and that's the fact that so many people are now reporting that guests staying in the Poly bungalows have been feeding the alligators and despite complaints about it to management, nothing has been done to stop the practice, including something as simple as putting notices in the bungalows that feeding gators violated Florida law.

Feeding gators violates Florida law because it increases aggression/decreases fear of humans.
Guests are known to feed guests from the Poly bungalows.
Disney looks the other way, not reprimanding guests who are literally spending thousands of dollars a night to stay in the bungalows.
This attack happened just over a year after the Poly bungalows opened. After 40+ years of no incidents. Is it a coincidence? Maybe. But it's not going to be that hard to argue correlation, especially with CMs/former CMs coming forward saying that management did nothing despite complaints.

I also think that this is incredibly important point. From what I've gathered from recent media coverage quoting featuring gator experts, behavior experts, a gator that is unfamiliar with humans is way less likely to attack a small child with a parent nearby. But a gator that has spent time around humans starts to lose that fear---I bet a gator that has spent time watching those bungalows has likely received food thrown by children, many of whom probably had a parent standing right there. I feel like small human---> "food"; small human + big human ---> "yup, still food" is an incredibly dangerous association for a gator to form.

Anyone (us, Disney) trying to determine just how aggressive the gator was needs to know some information about how close the child was to his parents when he was grabbed. I have read conflicting reports on this point (some say the father was also in the water, which, if accurate, are horrifying and point to a truly scary gator) and the true answer helps determine how much of a systematic gator problem Disney might have on their hands now.

The question of how close the boy was to his father also makes me wonder about the presence of the playpen on the beach. Was the little boy supposed to be in the playpen with his sister? In my experience, a little boy is much much more likely than a little girl to climb out of a playpen and stride off on his own, in sometimes a shockingly short period of time. Was the child for even just a second farther away from the parents than they had anticipated? Or, and I just had a really scary thought, did the playpen near the water look kind of like a bungalow balcony with a fence to the gator? Oh dear.

(I do not mean to pass judgement on anything these parents did or suggest they are to blame in any way. I think of all the times that I have been watching a child that age and been confident that they were safe, they were just five steps away in front of me, and my heart breaks for this family because I so easily could have made the exact same calculations these parents did, and thought absolutely nothing of it at the time. I wish to know what happened so that the knowledge of what led to this horrific accident is incorporated with so many thousands of other pieces of data into the hundreds of risk-based-calculations I must make instantaneously every day, so that the odds of an error in my calculus that harms me or another person decrease ever so slightly. And, in this specific instance, I hope to god that Disney is able to piece together what happened with enough certainty so that they can take all the steps they can to decrease the odds of something like this happening again.)

 

[Mac30188]

I'm saying the perceived risk by everyone just doubled when the second attack happened, so yes,now we may need a sign. I have a couple of sayings for you.
1) here is a Risk Doctor Proverb:
if a risk happens once, that's understandable
if a risk happens twice, unlucky
if a risk happens a third time, that's unacceptable
2) "Everything that happens once can never happen twice.But everything that happens twice will surely happen a third time."

Agree 100%. It is very reason to not blame anyone for this unprecedented event, but it is now no longer unprecedented. The failure of Disney to take action does put liability on their shoulders should another attack occur. Even though they are not to be blamed, I am sure there are several Disney employees consumed with guilt and sadness. I would be extremely anxious until I knew that gator was dead. I am also sure they will take actions to prevent a future occurrence. They probably won't go out of there way to terrorize the guests, but they will be darn sure the CMs are well educated to fear gators. I am guessing if a guest misses the sign and puts a toe in the water they will receive a prompt and serious conversation from a Disney representative. The enforcement of gator guidelines will be strictly enforced.

 

[southerngirl528]

Wherever there is a large fresh body of water there is likely to be a gator.

IN a nutshell, THIS is what everyone visiting FL or any other Southern state that has gators needs to remember.

The key to staying safe is being alert to the possibility of alligators being present. Never feed gators or swim or wade in waters where large alligators are known or likely to occur, especially at dusk or night (when they naturally feed). It is illegal to feed alligators. When humans feed alligators, it causes the alligators to lose their natural fear of humans and to associate humans with food. It doesn't matter if people feed them human-food like marshmallows or throw them fish guts when cleaning fish, it's all bad. It changes the alligator's behavior

VERY true. As I mentioned earlier, I have seen, numerous times, people stand RIGHT BY a sign that warns about FL law prohibiting FEEDING or harassing alligators, and watched them do BOTH. Folks, I mean standing within arm's reach of a sign warning NOT to do those behaviors. When people feed or harass gators they are pretty much placing a death sentence on that gator because they are encouraging it to do behaviors it would not do in its natural habitat. Nuisance gators are almost always killed, not relocated. I've personally spoken to both police and trappers when a nuisance gator (or just larger than 3 or 4 ft long gator) was being removed. And speaking of death sentences, worse still, feeding or harassing gators could cause a gator to kill someone's pet. Or worse... Ultimately, signs are not the end all solution because some folks just will NOT think warnings or signs are for them. Sad but true....

 

[cropman]

they are more scared of us than we are of them.

Uhhh...No