FYI - TSA is not playing around right now!

[rantnnravin]

ooooorrrrr... here's a thought... instead of spending gazillions on those intrusive machines --- DON'T give multiple entry visas to people on terror watch lists

 

[dburg30]

IIRC I think I read there are like 550,000 names on the 'watch list' and I would think that a fair amount of them are on that list for no other reason then their name is similar or the same as someone 'bad', but they have no other ties or reasons to be on the list other then that.

edit: OK, I just found this http://www.tsa.gov/approach/mythbusters/tsa_watch_list.shtm

So I guess closer to 400,000 on the 'whole' list. But that was over a year ago.

Updated! BUSTER: First, TSA doesn't have a watch list. TSA is a customer of the Terrorist Screening Center, a component of the FBI that is responsible for maintaining the consolidated terrorist watch list. TSA uses two subsets of this list, the no-fly and selectee lists.

At an October 22, 2008 press conference, DHS Secretary Michael Chertoff said there are less than 16,000 individuals on the selectee and no fly lists, which contain information about known or suspected terrorists that reach a threshold at which they either should not be allowed to fly, or should get additional scrutiny. Of the 16,000, less than 2,500 individuals are on the no fly list, and less than ten percent are U.S. persons.

The TSC has publicly stated that there are fewer than 400,000 individuals on the overall consolidated watch list, 95 percent of whom are not U.S. persons and the vast majority of whom are not even currently in the U.S.

 

[rantnnravin]

all the more reason we need beefier immigration and security measures instead of scrambling to lock the barn door after every time one of the horses gets out. The security and screening measures are not proactive where they need to be and too reactive to be effective. It is a dog and pony show. The "system" napolitano is touting that "worked" didn't, doesn't, and isn't - unless we want to continually count on the bombs not detonating. Put the men on the ground to follow those leads - however disjointed they may seem - inconvenience the few "suspect" travelers to ensure that the other hundreds of millions are safe - rather than taking away all the blankets and claiming that will solve the problem.

 

[dburg30]

Nothing will stop them from doing what they want, if they want. Sure you may catch some (and they probably have stopped some stuff from happening), but if they are radical enough and want to be successful, they will follow the ole 'if at first you dont succeed, try, try again'...

 

[rantnnravin]

well doesn't that make all this 3-1-1, take your shoes off, no potty breaks during the last hour - rather superfluous then?

 

[dburg30]

Maybe, maybe not, but I'm not sure what would be accomplished with better immigration security.. It wasnt like this person was trying to become a citizen.

 

[yitbos96bb]

I sooooo totally agree with you. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON my 9 year old blonde haired blue-eyed daugther should recevied the same scrutiny before a flight as "everyone else" simply because we are so gosh-darned afraid of "offending someone's sensibilities." There is a good reason El-Al is THE safest airline in the world and the U.S. had better start taking their cues from THEM instead of being RE-actionary based upon what tactics terrorists have tried in the past. Keep the loons off the planes and out of our country already. I really don't care who this offends.

and what if blond hair blur eyed neo-Nazis tried to blow up a plane using kids? At that point your little kid becomes profiled flyer #1. Your claiming this wouldn't bother you? I call bull. You'd be mad as heck and on here complaining about all the extra security time. You preach this because you haven't been forced th indignity.

Onto El-Al... There controversial profile program, which is being challenged in the israeli supreme court, is a very tiny part of there security regimen. In fact many argue that the profiling is not helpful at all. Flying El-Al, you have a small military presence. undercover and uniformed guards abound. All passengers are interviewed, much like
an intense customs interview. The interviewer looks for signs and microexpressions to tip off of potential threats. All bags are
searched and all go through a decompression chamber. On the plain, there are undercover air Marshalls on all flights. The cockpit has two doors
and one cannot be opened without the other. The piots are all ex air force.

As you can see the profiling is a very minor part.


Now do you know how TSA profiles? Or how they keep us safe. If you say yes, you are wrong. 100% wrong. The reason why is TSA won't release their SOP. In fact TSA is refusing to do it for congress. Truth is we
know very little how our planes are secured
which is a big problem.

Profiling doesn't work because it involves
human error. The new rules are ridiculous... They are like curing a
broken hand by slicing off the arm.

Here is how you make airport security effective. Fire all contractors
and make all checkers in any aspect of security federal employees. Make sure they are
competent, decently paid and continuously trained. Expand the watch list and use it every flight. On it and you get additional screening. Put tasers in the
cockpits. Put marshalls on all flights. All passengers have the optiom of
the full body xray. Refusal results in full search including showing legs and arms, puffer test, and bomb dogs and full pat down by same sex officer. Have dogs all around the airport especially by security. Interview passengers.

There are tons better ways than
taking away bathroom breaks and books in th last hour.

 

[rantnnravin]

this guy - on "one" of the watch lists - was granted a Multi- entry visa - essentially giving him the right to come and go from the U.S. as he pleased. These requests go through the state dept. and use the same mechanisms as those wishing to relocate to the U.S.
The U.S. needs to screen people traveling to and within the U.S. - ESPECIALLY non- citizens from hostile cultures. It may not be a pretty PC package - but that's th way it is and the sooner the state dept. gets a grip on that reality, the better.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ed...6/08/23/what_israeli_security_could_teach_us/

But because federal policy still bans ethnic or religious profiling, US passengers continue to be singled out for special scrutiny mostly on a random basis. Countless hours have been spent patting down elderly women in wheelchairs, toddlers with pacifiers, even former US vice presidents -- time that could have been used instead to concentrate on passengers with a greater likelihood of being terrorists.

 

[yitbos96bb]

Can we stop using term politically correct especially by people who don't seem to have any idea about what the proper definition and usage is. Further more there is little to no evidence profiling actually works... Regardless it has nothing to with political correctness but is instead an arguement of security vs civil rights as well as the question if it is constitutional.

While all of this stuff that the TSA is attempting to do in the name of our safety, thus far, hasn't breached my "I won't fly if they are gonna make me do insert some sort of overly privacy violating/beyond stupid restriction rule here," I can say that what they are doing isn't as much as they could/should be doing IMO. Safety standards for flights, train, and bus travel in this country are a joke.

Why are those lists of people to watch out for not being checked out a bit further? Yes, there is a system for dealing with stuff, but it's still in need of a lot more tweaking. I wish that we could move beyond political correctness and use some of that long researched "profiling" data that our tax dollars paid for in the past. We pretty much know who on those lists should trigger a need for further scrutiny, but it's just not happening. I feel that there needs to be a globally accessible database of "bad guys" that just aren't allowed to fly and travel from country to country. It's not happening anytime soon of course and the "one world orderishness" of it sounds kind of creepy, but dangit, I am tired of good people being made to suffer because there is a minute subset of the population that is out to make the world a more miserable place.

Ok, sorry, had to vent a little. Sorry if my opinions hit anyone the wrong way, but I stand by them flawed though they may be in the eyes of some.

 

[yitbos96bb]

this guy - on "one" of the watch lists - was granted a Multi- entry visa - essentially giving him the right to come and go from the U.S. as he pleased. These requests go through the state dept. and use the same mechanisms as those wishing to relocate to the U.S.
The U.S. needs to screen people traveling to and within the U.S. - ESPECIALLY non- citizens from hostile cultures. It may not be a pretty PC package - but that's th way it is and the sooner the state dept. gets a grip on that reality, the better.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ed...6/08/23/what_israeli_security_could_teach_us/

Please learn the difference between political correctness and questions of civil liberties and constitutionality.

 

[yitbos96bb]

Did you see the new xray machines they're going to start using? They see you naked? I hope I don't have aunt flo when we go. I'd hate to get a cavity search because of mother nature!

Eww... Really? Did you really need to write that?

 

[yitbos96bb]

Lawsuit happy society. If you don't like the way the new rules are, TAKE A BUS. Greyhound would be HAPPY to have you.

No I expect TSA to implement rules that actually work, whereas stupid stuff like lap and bathroom rules will have no effect whatsoever. Because the dude Couldnt go to the bathroom and detonate before the hour is done. these are knee jerk rules that will only outwit the extremely stupid. The real terrorists of which this idiot was not, would find better ways of doing it. Multiple bombers or such. It's why the 3-1-1 rule is stupid... They could but 3 or 4 on board with the needed amounts and them combine them. Too much bad security is just as bad as little to none security

 

[rantnnravin]

and what if blond hair blur eyed neo-Nazis tried to blow up a plane using kids? At that point your little kid becomes profiled flyer #1. Your claiming this wouldn't bother you? I call bull. You'd be mad as heck and on here complaining about all the extra security time. You preach this because you haven't been forced th indignity.

Onto El-Al... There controversial profile program, which is being challenged in the israeli supreme court, is a very tiny part of there security regimen. In fact many argue that the profiling is not helpful at all. Flying El-Al, you have a small military presence. undercover and uniformed guards abound. All passengers are interviewed, much like
an intense customs interview. The interviewer looks for signs and microexpressions to tip off of potential threats. All bags are
searched and all go through a decompression chamber. On the plain, there are undercover air Marshalls on all flights. The cockpit has two doors
and one cannot be opened without the other. The piots are all ex air force.

As you can see the profiling is a very minor part.


Now do you know how TSA profiles? Or how they keep us safe. If you say yes, you are wrong. 100% wrong. The reason why is TSA won't release their SOP. In fact TSA is refusing to do it for congress. Truth is we
know very little how our planes are secured
which is a big problem.

Profiling doesn't work because it involves
human error. The new rules are ridiculous... They are like curing a
broken hand by slicing off the arm.

Here is how you make airport security effective. Fire all contractors
and make all checkers in any aspect of security federal employees. Make sure they are
competent, decently paid and continuously trained. Expand the watch list and use it every flight. On it and you get additional screening. Put tasers in the
cockpits. Put marshalls on all flights. All passengers have the optiom of
the full body xray. Refusal results in full search including showing legs and arms, puffer test, and bomb dogs and full pat down by same sex officer. Have dogs all around the airport especially by security. Interview passengers.

There are tons better ways than
taking away bathroom breaks and books in th last hour.

i don't think we disagree all that much - .

and as far as my bh/be nine-year old being under enhanced scrutiny because neo-nazis "might" become terrorists. really It is a known fact that islamic terrorists have a very specific profile and they are the ones wishing to use planes as weapons. I think if we focus on actually investigating those on the "watch lists" and being proactive with regard to hostile cultures- all of the "enhanced security measures" would be less necessary.

 

[yitbos96bb]

You have got to be kidding me? A lawsuit would be thrown out before you could say the word lawsuit, while I think there are flaws with this rule and in time it will change right now this is the best they can do.

Ok learn the definitions of tounge in cheek and sarcasm... My god.

However given certain precidents the chances are fairly good of an injunction especially given the lack of taking health concerns into account.

 

[rantnnravin]

Please learn the difference between political correctness and questions of civil liberties and constitutionality.

I would suggest you do the same - "political correctness" relates directly to the fear that something done or said might offend:

Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term denoting language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social offense in gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, handicap, and age-related contexts. In current usage, the terms are almost exclusively pejorative, connoting “intolerant” and “intolerance” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness#cite_note-Perry-1992a-0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness#cite_note-Schultz-1993a-1 whilst the usage politically incorrect, denotes an implicitly positive self-description. Thus, “politically incorrect” denotes language, ideas, and behavior, unconstrained by orthodoxy and the fear of giving offense.
--Ruth Perry, (1992), “A short history of the term ‘politically correct’ ”, in Beyond PC: Toward a Politics of Understanding , by Patricia Aufderheide, 1992

the protections of the constitution apply only to citizens of the United States - NOT foreign nationals hell-bent on killing as many of those who are protected by said constitution as possible.

Generally, I find that arguments that degenerate into those of semantics, rather than issues, have devolved beyond useful discourse - as those who raise those issues have run out of meaningful points for others to ponder.

 

[yitbos96bb]

i don't think we disagree all that much - .

and as far as my bh/be nine-year old being under enhanced scrutiny because neo-nazis "might" become terrorists. really It is a known fact that islamic terrorists have a very specific profile and they are the ones wishing to use planes as weapons. I think if we focus on actually investigating those on the "watch lists" and being proactive with regard to hostile cultures- all of the "enhanced security measures" would be less necessary.

Profiling is the pursuit of the hypothetical. I'm bringing up a hypothetical under the assumption that a specific group attacks us... Whether it be muslims, neo Nazis, etc. And remember there are white Muslims in the world if you want to use profiling. Now by all means if someone regardless of their look is being twitchy take them out of line. But there is no evidence profiling is at all effective. and again, I still say that if you were in a group being profiled, your feelings would about profiling would not be the same. Random security relying on under paid human judgement is bad policy.

 

[yitbos96bb]

The only thing I have seen is that on INTERNATIONAL flights comming into the USA you cannot access your carryon luggage or have anything in your lap or get up in the last hour of the flight. I was on a domestic flight yesterday and none of those rules applied. That isn't to say that they won't in the future.

The only problem with this rule is that if it were in place when the incident happened on Christmas day, the terrorist would/could have done what they did earlier in the flight.

No its being randomly done on domestic flights as well.
They want to keep all new measures random to keep people guessing according to Neopolitanos statements, but there are domestic reports of this on flights.

 

[Flossbolna]

and what if blond hair blur eyed neo-Nazis tried to blow up a plane using kids? At that point your little kid becomes profiled flyer #1. Your claiming this wouldn't bother you? I call bull. You'd be mad as heck and on here complaining about all the extra security time. You preach this because you haven't been forced th indignity.

Onto El-Al... There controversial profile program, which is being challenged in the israeli supreme court, is a very tiny part of there security regimen. In fact many argue that the profiling is not helpful at all. Flying El-Al, you have a small military presence. undercover and uniformed guards abound. All passengers are interviewed, much like
an intense customs interview. The interviewer looks for signs and microexpressions to tip off of potential threats. All bags are
searched and all go through a decompression chamber. On the plain, there are undercover air Marshalls on all flights. The cockpit has two doors
and one cannot be opened without the other. The piots are all ex air force.

As you can see the profiling is a very minor part.


Now do you know how TSA profiles? Or how they keep us safe. If you say yes, you are wrong. 100% wrong. The reason why is TSA won't release their SOP. In fact TSA is refusing to do it for congress. Truth is we
know very little how our planes are secured
which is a big problem.

Profiling doesn't work because it involves
human error. The new rules are ridiculous... They are like curing a
broken hand by slicing off the arm.

Here is how you make airport security effective. Fire all contractors
and make all checkers in any aspect of security federal employees. Make sure they are
competent, decently paid and continuously trained. Expand the watch list and use it every flight. On it and you get additional screening. Put tasers in the
cockpits. Put marshalls on all flights. All passengers have the optiom of
the full body xray. Refusal results in full search including showing legs and arms, puffer test, and bomb dogs and full pat down by same sex officer. Have dogs all around the airport especially by security. Interview passengers.

There are tons better ways than
taking away bathroom breaks and books in th last hour.

Thanks for the interesting post. I traveled once to Israel from Munich, Germany. The security for that flight was impressive. And it was a very long an convoluted process with the interviews and then the examination of every single bag. There was even an armed vehicle driving along the plane until it was in the air. If that level of security was introduced on a mass scale, I would expect people needing to be at the airport at least four hours before their flight to get through security. And airports would need to be rebuilt to have space for all this screening to go on.

Your post about how the look of the terrorists might change reminded me of a poem by a German pastor who was imprissoned by the Nazis called Martin Niemöller. He was at first rather admiring the Nazis because he was very anti-communist.

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...) the English translation of the poem goes like this:

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.

I am not saying security measures can be compared with the injustices done by Germany during the Nazi regime (being German myself, I would never think that apprpriate in any way), but it illustrates how easy things can slide in a direction which becomes unstoppable at some point.

 

[Flossbolna]

and as far as my bh/be nine-year old being under enhanced scrutiny because neo-nazis "might" become terrorists. really It is a known fact that islamic terrorists have a very specific profile and they are the ones wishing to use planes as weapons. I think if we focus on actually investigating those on the "watch lists" and being proactive with regard to hostile cultures- all of the "enhanced security measures" would be less necessary.

But acts of terrorism might happen from many different groups. And the world changes all the time, so new threats might develop. The reason why you don't find any trash cans in the City of London (the financial center of London), is because of the bomb scares of the IRA, not islamic terrorists.

 

[yitbos96bb]

I would suggest you do the same - "political correctness" relates directly to the fear that something done or said might offend:



the protections of the constitution apply only to citizens of the United States - NOT foreign nationals hell-bent on killing as many of those who are protected by said constitution as possible.

Generally, I find that arguments that degenerate into those of semantics, rather than issues, have devolved beyond useful discourse - as those who raise those issues have run out of meaningful points for others to ponder.

One... If you are oging to throw down a definition use a dictionary, not a writer with her own biases toward subject matter.

Two... You still don't see to understand WHAT political correctness is. Now if you are saying that YOU personally calling for profiling on all middle eastern travelers is not PC, then I would give you that. The ACT of profiling is NOT a PC issue however, it is a Civil Liberties and COnstitutional issue.

Three... The profiling movement is not calling for simply foreign borns to be profiled, rather for all people of certain racial or religious groups to do so. That would include American borns, which could be considered a violation of several aspects of the constitution.

Four... As to constitutional protections of foreign citizens on US soil, well on that you are just plain wrong. THe 14th amendment grants equal protection to all people (not citizens, but people) within its boundaries. Wong Wing v US and Yick Wo vs Hopkins are famous SCOTUS precedents upholding this.