Fun while using FP+ - Fun Because of FP+ ... an Important distinction

[Shaden]

Causation, its important in these discussions.

This is something that crops up quite frequently.

Someone posts that they "had a great time because of FP+" or "Had a great time LOVE FP+"

Then people come in and say things like, "Oh awesome, glad the system worked well for you" etc etc ...

Then some more people come in and say "well, actually looking at what you did, you didn't have fun because of FP+, you had fun in spite of it"

And then more people come in and complain about the people pointing out the errors in the OP's logic, and why can't they just admit some people love FP+ etc etc ...

Causation is important.

I haven't seen anyone say its not possible to have fun while using FP+, I have seen people say they wont get the same value for their money, or they wont get to do as much as they would like.

People do have legitimate issues about when people come on and try to suggest they had a great time BECAUSE of FP+, when in fact its pretty obvious FP+ had nothing to do with it.

A few examples: Someone here posted a rather lengthy thread about how they had the greatest time ever because of FP+, they did a lot less than they wanted to or usually did in the parks, just used their 3 FPs and then generally left the park. Had a lot more down time, spent more time at the resort, and found it very relaxing and nice. That's not really because of FP+, they could have always done that with FP- as well. They seem to have had more fun despite FP+, FP+ limited what they could do in the parks, and they ended up enjoying their down time, which they always could have done.

Another example, a few people here have posted how "awesome" FP+ is because they have done SO MUCH by RDing or even worse by RDing and then Staying Late at night. Ummmm yea ? That has nothing to do with FP+. In Fact, they probably would have been able to do much more at RD with FP- ... and they would have still done all those walk ons and low waits late at night. A lot of people talk about how FP+ is awesome because they are RDing and getting so much done, that's not new to FP+, in fact, you are probably getting less done on your RDs then you could have before.

Not to say some people haven't pointed out ways in which FP+ HAS been beneficial. People who show up later in the day on busy days, people who talk about what they can book later in the day on arrival day, etc. Very valid points.

In fact I think Spring break, the 8, 9, and 10 days of summer and Christmas are the times FP+ will work the best. Its the other 70% of the year that FP+ is going to have its most negative impact, when on 3s,4s, 5s, 6s, you used to be able to pull FP's throughout the whole day and night, and now will be limited to 3, and longer SB lines, that's going to hurt.

Causation is important. A professor of mine used a great analogy about this: Every day in New York city, a horn sounds on a construction site at noon. Every day in Miami, as soon as that horn sounds in New York city, construction workers take their lunch. Therefore, the New York City horn makes the Miami construction workers go on lunch.

Causation, vs Correlation, the causation is the fact that its noon, not the horn.

Its possible to have a great time in Disney, using FP+, and for FP+ to have had a negative impact on your trip. Its possible to have a great time in Disney, and have had FP+ improve your trip. But its also important to recognize the difference.

 

[Shaden]

Thoughts ? Agree, disagree ?

 

[Davey Jones II]

Excellent point. I think you can have fun despite FP+, but I can't see it adding anything to your trip. Compared to Legacy FP, it's a joke, quite frankly. The reasons for that have already been discussed ad nauseum.

But if you can avoid comparing today's experience to the one you enjoyed with paper FPs, I suppose you'll still have a worthwhile vacation.

 

[catra121]

I both agree and disagree...not very helpful, huh?

I agree in the sense that some of the things that people enjoy are the things they COULD have done with FP-. BUT...they never WOULD have done those things if it hadn't been for the introduction of FP+. They were "forced" to tour differently...and loved it. Had they not been "forced" to change their touring style then they never would have and then never would have had these great vacations like the ones they are having now. So the change to FP+ is, in fact, the cause in that sense of their great vacations.

But I am a fan of FP+...I like the way it fits in with my touring style, I like planning ahead, I didn't like backtracking across the park to get/use a FP (even though we always stayed fairly close by to avoid too much extra walking), I like that I can schedule my FPs around my dining reservations (of which I always have at least 2 a day), I don't mind riding stand by because it's time I get to spend with whoever I am with, I like that I don't have to force my boyfriend to get up early when he would prefer to sleep in because the important rides will already be scheduled (I personally am an open to close park goer but it's nice that I can ease up when travelling with those who aren't)...it just flat out works for me and I would say that my trip with it was BETTER. But all of my Disney trips have been great...it's my happy place and I will have a great time there no matter what. FP+, FP-, or no FP...I will still be happy in Disney World.

 

[vital]

I'll be using FP+ for the first time May 23-31. It will definitely change our touring style, but I will not let it ruin our trip.

I think all of this obsessing over it is insane. Either you will like it or you won't. Period. If you find that you do like it, great, plan another trip. If you find you don't like it, great, go somewhere else. This obsession people have over FP+ is unhealthy and seems to be consuming too many people. When you take a step back and really look at what the obsession is about, it's about the craziest thing I've ever seen. In my book it's right up there with standing in line overnight for a Cabbage Patch Doll or Beanie Baby. Where are those things now? In a box in the attic and nobody cares about them anymore. I think that applies to FP+. When the newness wears off people will look back and realize all of the energy they wasted on this and shake their heads.

I'll have fun on my trip either because of or in spite of FP+.

 

[pad406]

Excellent point. I think you can have fun despite FP+, but I can't see it adding anything to your trip. Compared to Legacy FP, it's a joke, quite frankly. The reasons for that have already been discussed ad nauseum.

But if you can avoid comparing today's experience to the one you enjoyed with paper FPs, I suppose you'll still have a worthwhile vacation.

First, a disclaimer, I haven't used FP+ !!

But I disagree with your conclusion here. I think it very much depends on when you go and how you like to tour the parks. For instance, we're going over the Christmas/New Year period. On days where we go to an EMH morning or a normal rope drop, we can ride headliners and use FP+ in some other park (or the same one) later in the evening. If we want to do a shopping trip or a morning in the water parks, again we will be able to do some headline rides later in the day. This was basically impossible with FP-, unless you want to spend 90-120 +++ mins in SB. So for us, I am really hopeful it will increase our enjoyment.

 

[ArwenMarie]

Interesting post!

I will throw another idea in there...There are studies that show that having too many options doesn't necessarily make us happy. Maybe the limits of FP are making people go do things that they wouldn't have normally done? I'm thinking of the example of the person saying they had a great time at their resort because they left the parks. In that case, you could say that the limit of FP+ forced them to go do that, therefore FP+ was the cause.

But I agree with your premise that you could have always done the same thing with old FP.

 

[Magpie]

Just one example (there are others, but I don't want to write a novel):

I never had a chance to ride coasters like Big Thunder Mountain Railroad in the dark, prior to the introduction of FP+.

Before, whenever we arrived at the Magic Kingdom in the late afternoon/evening, the FP- would be all distributed, the lines would be long, and we'd opt to ride things like the Peoplemover, that had little or no wait. We were okay with that, since it was part of the plan, and we'd just arrange a morning at Magic Kingdom on a later date to get in that coaster ride.

But now, we get to ride the coasters both on our rope drop mornings AND on our second park evenings. Twice the rides!

Riding BTMRR in the dark was really cool. It was a whole new way of experiencing that ride. And I attribute that experience entirely to FP+. Agree or disagree, as you choose. But for us, this is an example of one thing FP+ made possible, that FP- could not.

For us, with our ropedrop-nap-second-evening-park style of touring, FP+ did not take away from our experience, it added to it.

 

[Shaden]

Very interesting,

I kind of agree with the idea that FP+ forces people to change how they tour, and then they might enjoy that style, unintentionally. But I have difficulty suggesting they had a better time because of FP+, since this isn't supposedly the point of FP+, and the people aren't doing what they set out to do, FP+ prevented them from that ... its like an unintended side effect ...

As for Christmas, again, I see how FP+ works there, for exactly the reasons you said. On a 10 day, or even a 9, or 8, FP+ will be its most advantageous .... Its just the rest of the year that its not ... that the trade offs begin, and that we start trading away more than we get from FP+.

 

[BuckeyeBama]

I think that the FP+ ruined my vacation crowd does the same thing. Both sides have people who manipulate the "facts" to support their conclusion.

For my trip in January, we used FP+ expecting a disaster. But we decided to use FP+ with a different touring strategy, arriving at the parks much later in the day with late day FP+ reservations. The result was a vacation in which my wife and I were able to relax a lot more while still riding everything that we wanted to ride. We got FP+ for rides that would long since have run our of FP- before we arrived on previous trips.

So, for us, FP+ was the reason that we were able to have such a great trip in January using this different touring style. Causation - there it is for you to examine.

Now, if I were to ask myself if I could have had just as good a vacation in January using the legacy system, the answer would be yes - but that is because we don't mind getting up early and leveraging rope drop.

FP+ took the rush out of our mornings, allowing for the most relaxed WDW vacation that we have ever experienced - and this with my wife and I running in the marathon races.

 

[Shaden]

Just one example (there are others, but I don't want to write a novel):

I never had a chance to ride coasters like Big Thunder Mountain Railroad in the dark, prior to the introduction of FP+.

Before, whenever we arrived at the Magic Kingdom in the late afternoon/evening, the FP- would be all distributed, the lines would be long, and we'd opt to ride things like the Peoplemover, that had little or no wait. We were okay with that, since it was part of the plan, and we'd just arrange a morning at Magic Kingdom on a later date to get in that coaster ride.

But now, we get to ride the coasters both on our rope drop mornings AND on our second park evenings. Twice the rides!

Riding BTMRR in the dark was really cool. It was a whole new way of experiencing that ride. And I attribute that experience entirely to FP+. Agree or disagree, as you choose. But for us, this is an example of one thing FP+ made possible, that FP- could not.

For us, with our ropedrop-nap-second-evening-park style of touring, FP+ did not take away from our experience, it added to it.

I can see that, although, again I would suggest that only applies part of the year, we could still pull FPs for the mountains at night on our last couple trips.

I might even go as far as to suggest that FP+ probably did take away from your trip, you probably could have "done more" in your mornings with FP- .... of course in sum total you clearly feel that net was a positive/benefit. And that's cool, I am glad that you enjoyed it, and I can see how, given the time of year you went and your enjoyment of the night rides, FP+ is directly responsible for increasing your enjoyment.

 

[DavidNYC]

Don't think very relevant here. Almost all have causation elements. Even your supposed "correlation" example to me is far more causation. Being able to show up at a park whenever you want, do 3 FP at say 1, 2, and 3, and leave is very much because of FP+ and impossible without it at moderately busy times. If you're not a rope dropper, you would have needed a minimum of 6-8 hours at a park for 3 passes on the old system. FP+ makes it possible in 3. Not saying that's how people want to tour - but pointing out that you examples aren't as clear cut as you think. Most people commenting on here with at least some past Disney experience raise points caused at least somewhat by FP+.

 

[Magpie]

I can see that, although, again I would suggest that only applies part of the year, we could still pull FPs for the mountains at night on our last couple trips.

I might even go as far as to suggest that FP+ probably did take away from your trip, you probably could have "done more" in your mornings with FP- .... of course in sum total you clearly feel that net was a positive/benefit. And that's cool, I am glad that you enjoyed it, and I can see how, given the time of year you went and your enjoyment of the night rides, FP+ is directly responsible for increasing your enjoyment.

I don't know... we felt like we achieved just as much in the morning as we had on any of our previous seven or eight trips.

We never enter any standby line that says it's over 15 or 20 minutes (depending on the ride). We strongly prefer 5 or 10 minutes. We found plenty of those every morning, and rode everything we wanted to ride. It's also harder to collect FP-, when you're planning to eat lunch before noon, and leave the park by one in the afternoon. We missed out on a lot of FP- simply because the return times were never convenient.

 

[Shaden]

I think that the FP+ ruined my vacation crowd does the same thing. Both sides have people who manipulate the "facts" to support their conclusion.

For my trip in January, we used FP+ expecting a disaster. But we decided to use FP+ with a different touring strategy, arriving at the parks much later in the day with late day FP+ reservations. The result was a vacation in which my wife and I were able to relax a lot more while still riding everything that we wanted to ride. We got FP+ for rides that would long since have run our of FP- before we arrived on previous trips.

So, for us, FP+ was the reason that we were able to have such a great trip in January using this different touring style. Causation - there it is for you to examine.

Now, if I were to ask myself if I could have had just as good a vacation in January using the legacy system, the answer would be yes - but that is because we don't mind getting up early and leveraging rope drop.

FP+ took the rush out of our mornings, allowing for the most relaxed WDW vacation that we have ever experienced - and this with my wife and I running in the marathon races.

I am just going to take a guess here, but if you say you were "able to do everything you wanted" with FP+, and you went in January, I am going to guess crowd levels had a major impact on your trip ? No ? Either that or you didn't want to go on more than 3 rides, in some parks 3 rides tiered. In which case I could see how FP+ would work for you.

But that's a pretty prime example of some of the errors we see with Causation and FP+. We have had a few people post about January trips, how they were able to FP their 3 rides and everything else had low waits so they could still do everything else they wanted.

FP+ is not the reason they had a great trip, it is the low crowds.

 

[catra121]

Very interesting,

I kind of agree with the idea that FP+ forces people to change how they tour, and then they might enjoy that style, unintentionally. But I have difficulty suggesting they had a better time because of FP+, since this isn't supposedly the point of FP+, and the people aren't doing what they set out to do, FP+ prevented them from that ... its like an unintended side effect ...

As for Christmas, again, I see how FP+ works there, for exactly the reasons you said. On a 10 day, or even a 9, or 8, FP+ will be its most advantageous .... Its just the rest of the year that its not ... that the trade offs begin, and that we start trading away more than we get from FP+.

SOME of us are trading away more that what we get with FP+...and SOME are not...it all depends on how you toured to begin with and what you want from your Disney World vacation.

I think that's why the views are such polar opposites for people...for some people this is a clear cut situation where it is WORSE for them and they get LESS value for their vacation $$. For others...it is a clear cut situation where it is BETTER for them, their experience is ENHANCED, and they feel they are getting MORE value for their vacation $$. Most fall in the middle somewhere leaning maybe more one way than the other.

There are clearly valid points on all sides. The problem with these debates is that the biggest cons and deal breakers for those who HATE FP+...don't matter at all to some people. And on the flip side...the things that some people LOVE about FP+...mean absolutely nothing to others. It's all about personal preference, what you value as an individual, and your perception. You can't always quantify these things and put them into a nice equation...it just doesn't work that way.

In the end...it's just going to come down to whether it works for you as an individual and then what you plan to do about it (live with it, take your vacation $$ somewhere else, etc).

 

[Shaden]

I don't know... we felt like we achieved just as much in the morning as we had on any of our previous seven or eight trips.

We never enter any standby line that says it's over 15 or 20 minutes (depending on the ride). We strongly prefer 5 or 10 minutes. We found plenty of those every morning, and rode everything we wanted to ride.

Yea, see, there you go proving exactly my point.

During even most moderate days, let alone busier than moderate days, FPs still become very useful in the morning.

 

[redrosesix]

Thoughts ? Agree, disagree ?

I agree with all of it. We liked being able to use a FP for F! and for a character greet, but I think they could have made FPs like those possible with the previous system -- the BOG lunch FP was introduced before FP+.

So I don't really attibute the shorter wait times we had for those to the new FP+ system, especially F!. On our trip, we did some attractions with a FP and many waiting in SB. So we got the good and the bad of it. Certainly there's nothing about it that would make me say I love the new system, but we worked around it as best we could. Tbh the wifi in the parks was a much bigger issue for us.

 

[wareagle57]

Some people just want to be eternal optimists, which is fine. I'm glad they can be happy. But I hate when they try to MAKE ME be happy with something and make up reasons why I should like it.

I do not think FP+ is going to ruin my trip to Disney. I don't think it will even significantly impact me negatively. (Hope I'm not wrong about this.) I always put together a pretty good game plan so I think I'll do what I normally do, minus not being about to ride some things multiple times.

My issue is not so much with it ruining my trip, but rather anger towards Disney for spending a billion dollars on something completely unnecessary. Yes, it might end up making them money and increase attendance. I don't care if it does, that still infuriates me that they spend a billion dollars on fixing something that didn't need fixing and then making it even worse! I'm also pretty upset at Avatar Land and caning Star Wars Land but that's for another rant.

I don't know how far a billion dollars goes at a place like Disney, but I would imagine it could make at least 1 E-ticket attraction for each park.

 

[catra121]

I am just going to take a guess here, but if you say you were "able to do everything you wanted" with FP+, and you went in January, I am going to guess crowd levels had a major impact on your trip ? No ? Either that or you didn't want to go on more than 3 rides, in some parks 3 rides tiered. In which case I could see how FP+ would work for you.

But that's a pretty prime example of some of the errors we see with Causation and FP+. We have had a few people post about January trips, how they were able to FP their 3 rides and everything else had low waits so they could still do everything else they wanted.

FP+ is not the reason they had a great trip, it is the low crowds.

But...if they've travelled in January BEFORE with low crowds and they feel this trip was BETTER because of FP+...then it's not just the low crowds but also the use of FP+ that made their trips better (for them).

 

[morethananyonex]

IMO, FP+ can be credited for the 3 rides you can do with it. That's all it's doing. Getting you on those 3 rides with little effort or "stress". So for a person who says their day was great because they walked into a park at 2, did their 3 big rides, soaked up the atmosphere, ate dinner, watched a parade and some fireworks, and then shopped a left, for example, it totally makes sense to credit FP+. That type of day couldn't have been done the same way in the past.

It makes no sense to credit it for doing rope drop and/or rider swap and riding headliners multiple times, like some people do. FP+ has absolutely nothing to do with that. That could have been done with FP-, quite easily if you still did RD. FP+ hinders you from doing multiple rides, so if people are riding multiple rides it's in spite of FP+. Riding over and over through the stand by line has absolutely nothing to do with FP+. I don't understand why people credit it for that.

It's absolutely still possible to have a great trip, but crediting FP+ for something it has nothing to do with is why those types of reports get the comments they do. It's like if someone said "In July I arrived at the park at 1 PM, left at 5, and only got to ride 3 big rides, stupid FP+!!", when a crowded park causes it more than anything, and FP+ helped in that situation. Those people do get called on it, so I don't know why people have such a problem with the "positive" reports getting called on it too.