Frommer article full of WDW misinformation

[YoHo]

I don't know what routine you are referring to. I don't have a routine, I just wanted to know what all the animosity was about. Anyways, I addressed the question to Another Voice. Maybe my "credentials" weren't good enough for a response. Also, I originally came across this thread on the theme parks and stategies board. It has apparently been moved by one of the moderators and when I clicked on the link in my email it apparently brought me to "your" board. I didn't "venture" here and I certainly won't be venturing back if this is one of your typical discussions. Just too nasty for me. I guess I'm just one of those goody-goody disney people. Sorry for the interruption. Now back to your verbal berating of each other.

PrincessTiffany, the reason we're being a bit short with you is that we get asked this question a lot. Usually once we explain ourselves, the person asking understands, or at least respects our position, but it's a little frustrating to be constantly asked.

Couple months ago I blogged on the subject
http://www.july171955.com/b2evoluti...y_curmudgen_commandments&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

Actually, I recommend my entire blog to get an idea of where I and to a certain extent others are coming from.
In either case, here's a excerpt:

2. Being a Disney fan doesn’t mean you have to think every dumb thing they do is magical
Ugh, the tubes of the internet are clogged with Disney fanatics who laud every stupid thing Disney does.
“THANKYOU MOUSE MAY I HAVE ANOTHER!!!”

3. Corollary: I don’t need to like everything Disney does to enjoy their parks.
I’m sorry, being critical of Disney doesn’t mean I don’t enjoy the old Disney. The Disney that became a household name, Not the Disney that exploited that name

 

[PrincessTiffany]

PrincessTiffany, the reason we're being a bit short with you is that we get asked this question a lot. Usually once we explain ourselves, the person asking understands, or at least respects our position, but it's a little frustrating to be constantly asked.

Couple months ago I blogged on the subject
http://www.july171955.com/b2evoluti...y_curmudgen_commandments&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

Actually, I recommend my entire blog to get an idea of where I and to a certain extent others are coming from.
In either case, here's a excerpt:

Thanks for the honest response. That's all I wanted to know.

 

[YoHo]

Perhaps they get so caught up in their own thoughts, opinions , & knowledge that they forget we are real people with real feelings when they ridicule us and our opinions so harshly.
I think they sometimes just view us a screen name.

JMHO

There's no crying on the internet.

I like to think of my role as Disney rumors and news drill Sargent. Insulting you and berating you into a bunch of critical Disney thinkers.

YOUR NEW NAME IS GOMER PYLE!!!
.
..
...

AV's just a jerk though.

 

[minnie61650]

There's no crying on the internet.

I like to think of my role as Disney rumors and news drill Sargent. Insulting you and berating you into a bunch of critical Disney thinkers.

YOUR NEW NAME IS GOMER PYLE!!!
.
..
...

AV's just a jerk though.

Gee.......
I did not realize when I joined the DIS I was enlisting in the army.
I guess that's what I get for not reading the fine print.

 

[Another Voice]

If you have such an apparent distaste for Disney, why are you a member of the Disboards?

Ms. Tiffany, I am never bothered to answer honest questions and I'll give you an honest answer.

I think that Mr. Pirate had it best – I’m fighting for my memories. I have seen Disney for my entire life, both from the outside and as part of the inside. I know what Disney can accomplish when they really, really try; and I painfully know how much the world really needs “magic” to make it a better place.

I could go on for a long time and become very maudlin, but no one wants to read that. So I’ll stick to one memory.

It’s the memory of a bunch of animators watching the first cut of a scene. Everyone in the room was in tears because they were so full of pride. For most of them, working on Disney animated movie was the goal of a lifetime. And now, not only had that dream come true – but they thought they had actually created something that was finally worthy of the name “Disney”. It made them part of the legacy, it gave them something to point to and say “there – I created that”, it gave them the understanding that people will be watching that scene long after we are all gone.

That sense of pride – earned pride – caused people to work even harder. It filled their work with a sense of purpose and passion, emotions that carried down to the watching the first paying audience for the film laugh and scream and cry and applaud to the very end.

That is Disney to me: the ability to create the impossible, the willingness to put in all the effort to make it happen, the ability to communicate all that passion to the people who watch or visit. Walk through Disneyland or the Magic Kingdom or EPCOT Center and you can feel that surround you, you can feel the joy of creating real magic, the excitement of making the impossible.


Do you get that feeling walking around Pop Century? I don’t, there’s no magic there. I get associations – a fifty foot Mickey Mouse Phone tells me this is a Disney branded establishment – but the place doesn’t stir anyone’s soul. There’s no sense of pride in the place. There’s a sense of balance sheets and PowerPoint presentations – but no sense of someone standing there saying “only we at Disney could have pulled this off”.

Sure, some people will like the place. People watch ‘American Idol’, eat Cheez Whiz and follow the careers of professional wrestlers too. But that’s not the standard I want Disney to follow. “Just good enough” isn’t good enough; “but children like it” means the place is fell on the wrong side of "childish" and "child-like".

You don’t get 14 million people to visit a swamp in central Florida just to see the average, or the adequate or the “this-is-what-we-had-in-the-budget”. People want to feel the passion that Disney productions used to possess. They want to experience the real magic of true artists at work. They want more than just seeing characters – fiberglass or otherwise. They need more than just “Disney’s” in front of a hotel’s name for the place to feel special. They want to experience all that Disney used to produce, but so rarely does these days.

I want Disney to be great. I believe that is the best way to ensure the future success and growth of the company. Revenue management techniques will not get a single new visitor to WDW, but a brilliantly created unique attraction will bring them in the by the millions. It’s time that Disney – and its fans – expected more from the company. It's time that Disney actually created something they can be proud of again.

I’m just here doing my best to keep the bar raised.

 

[mking624]

Ms. Tiffany, I am never bothered to answer honest questions and I'll give you an honest answer.

I think that Mr. Pirate had it best – I’m fighting for my memories. I have seen Disney for my entire life, both from the outside and as part of the inside. I know what Disney can accomplish when they really, really try; and I painfully know how much the world really needs “magic” to make it a better place.

I could go on for a long time and become very maudlin, but no one wants to read that. So I’ll stick to one memory.

It’s the memory of a bunch of animators watching the first cut of a scene. Everyone in the room was in tears because they were so full of pride. For most of them, working on Disney animated movie was the goal of a lifetime. And now, not only had that dream come true – but they thought they had actually created something that was finally worthy of the name “Disney”. It made them part of the legacy, it gave them something to point to and say “there – I created that”, it gave them the understanding that people will be watching that scene long after we are all gone.

That sense of pride – earned pride – caused people to work even harder. It filled their work with a sense of purpose and passion, emotions that carried down to the watching the first paying audience for the film laugh and scream and cry and applaud to the very end.

That is Disney to me: the ability to create the impossible, the willingness to put in all the effort to make it happen, the ability to communicate all that passion to the people who watch or visit. Walk through Disneyland or the Magic Kingdom or EPCOT Center and you can feel that surround you, you can feel the joy of creating real magic, the excitement of making the impossible.


Do you get that feeling walking around Pop Century? I don’t, there’s no magic there. I get associations – a fifty foot Mickey Mouse Phone tells me this is a Disney branded establishment – but the place doesn’t stir anyone’s soul. There’s no sense of pride in the place. There’s a sense of balance sheets and PowerPoint presentations – but no sense of someone standing there saying “only we at Disney could have pulled this off”.

Sure, some people will like the place. People watch ‘American Idol’, eat Cheez Whiz and follow the careers of professional wrestlers too. But that’s not the standard I want Disney to follow. “Just good enough” isn’t good enough; “but children like it” means the place is fell on the wrong side of "childish" and "child-like".

You don’t get 14 million people to visit a swamp in central Florida just to see the average, or the adequate or the “this-is-what-we-had-in-the-budget”. People want to feel the passion that Disney productions used to possess. They want to experience the real magic of true artists at work. They want more than just seeing characters – fiberglass or otherwise. They need more than just “Disney’s” in front of a hotel’s name for the place to feel special. They want to experience all that Disney used to produce, but so rarely does these days.

I want Disney to be great. I believe that is the best way to ensure the future success and growth of the company. Revenue management techniques will not get a single new visitor to WDW, but a brilliantly created unique attraction will bring them in the by the millions. It’s time that Disney – and its fans – expected more from the company. It's time that Disney actually created something they can be proud of again.

I’m just here doing my best to keep the bar raised.

Though this was not addressed to me, I did want to respond.

I can totally respect your views and feelings on this. By your post, it's evident that it's something you feel passionate about. However, you should also respect that people DO feel that Disney provides an awesome experience of all "it used to produce." You may not agree, but yes, there are people who feel that way. I say go for it to keep trying to raise the bar to have a company meet your standards! But other people who feel that those standards have been met should not be silenced because you don't feel the same.

As far as the "magic" of Disney at Pop Century...we've stayed there twice. While we're not big fans of value resorts, the place is quirky enough for me to say "yep, that's Disney to me." Both times we've stayed, we've been treated with stellar attitudes and wonderful mousekeeping. And yes, that's definitely not something I've encountered at places outside of Disney. So you see, the experience is different to different people. And really, Disney can't please everyone...no matter how hard they tried (and that's not to say Disney shouldn't keep trying, but the fact is, no matter what they do, someone will complain about it). Am I WOWed by it? Well no, but honestly that's because we much prefer the "peace" of the other categories than the "loudness" of a value. But some people love the values! It's definitely a "to each his own" situation.

I'm not some person who blindly follows whatever Disney is doing. There are things that they have done that I didn't agree with, and yes I wrote them about it and I've spoken to Guest Relations managers about over the phone. I have no problem voicing my opinion to them when it comes to something that I'm concerned about because it's obviously something I prefer to see a change in, because like you, I want that bar to be raised. So when you state multiple times how we're Disney fans who are apparently unwilling to face reality (not your specific words, I know), it frustrates me because you obviously haven't taken the time to get to know some of us to see that we aren't just people who say "Disney is perfect, they can do no wrong!" I know enough about the company and its origins to know that there are things they do that I disagree with, sometimes ethically.

You want Disney to be great, and so do we.

 

[Another Voice]

You want Disney to be great, and so do we.

Then why settle for the Pop Century?

You must feel that Disney could have done better. You must know that Disney should have done better. It's not a matter of what people like or dislike - it's what Disney is capable of doing and what they must do to maintain their position. Like I said, they sell Cheez Whiz by the tanker truck load - but "popularity" is not a standard that Disney should strive for.

For the same amount of money Disney could have built a resort with true imagination, true charm, true "only Disney could have done this" appeal. It would have taken imagination and work...all the traits that Disney used to be associatated with. Instead we got an accountants spreadsheet and about ten mintues of thought. Sure some people "like" it...but that's not the standard that should be applied.

I'm not trying to silence anyone's opinion, but there is a difference between "something made in the Disney tradition" and "something branded as Disney". Disney has been successful when it creates true Disney products; it fails when it relies only on the good will generated by the brand.

I do think people feel the difference between Real and Branded products - Pixar films, made in the tradition of Walt, are massive hits. Disney's own animated films - with ads filled with "Disney" and "Magic" every third word, have been box office disasters for a decade now. The general public desires good movies, good productions first and foremost. They see through the marketing hype and can sniff out substrandard efforts.

That is what is so distrubing about "fandom" - they don't seem to be able to separate the product from the brand anymore. In fact, most people want nothing but the brand. Honestly, would you ever have stayed at Universal's Pop Century Resort or would you have considered it a cheap and loud cinderblock motel? The most vocal supporters of Pop would be the loudest detractor of the same identical facility had it been located in a different spot. It's that same attitude presented in this thread over and over and over again - the presumption that "Disney" is better just becasue it's "Disney" and that all other opinions are driven by malice.

For every bad move that Disney makes, some suit can hold up fifty internet postings from fans and claim "the public likes it". We are as responsible for the decline at Disney as much as the company is. We are the ones lowering the bar - as in the settling for places like Pop Century and attacking a travel writer that dares hold a different opinion.

 

[minnie61650]

........That is what is so distrubing about "fandom" - they don't seem to be able to separate the product from the brand anymore. .......
For every bad move that Disney makes, some suit can hold up fifty internet postings from fans and claim "the public likes it". We are as responsible for the decline at Disney as much as the company is. We are the ones lowering the bar - as in the settling for places like Pop Century and attacking a travel writer that dares hold a different opinion.

Maybe that suit can "hold up fifty Internet postings from fans and claim "the public likes it".
But I would also think that for every 50 who post they like it there are hundreds of postings from fans who did not like it.

Over time I think even the "suits" have to take notice and try to make improvements.

I disagree with the statement that the "fandom" cannot separate the product from the brand anymore.

Even though some of us may see some things differently than you do I think most of us want to raise the bar also.

Just my 2 cents

 

[harvardx]

Thank you everyone for posting. You are scaring me but I need a strong dose of of reality from both sides. I have got to get my expectations within reason. I was at EPCOT Center and Magic Kingdom in April 1989 trying to clear my mind for a week. It worked!

My memories are so vague that I remember "It's a Small World" being in Epcot and don't remember the TTC (stayed at a motel) and thought I just walked from my car to the entrance. And I certainly do not remember any crowds and it was Easter week! Planning for the worst and hoping for the best!

 

[WillCAD]

YoHo, Another Voice, you're preaching to the choir when it comes to blindly accepting everything Disney does and not criticizing them and refusing to consider alternative destinations, etc.

I've never been one to spend my whole trip smothered by Disney; I go to both Univeral parks on every trip, I visit the outlets and off-site malls and dining options, I stay off-site as much as I stay on-site, and I love hitting the cheesy Lake Buena Vista area flea markets.

I've also been extremely critical of many of the corporate policies that Disney has established over the last 7 years or so, and have written some pretty heated emails to them about it. And for years I was getting madder and madder at the skyrocketing prices and swiftly falling cleanliness and maintenance in the parks, though on my last couple of trips cleanliness seems to have improved rather than degenerated.

And truthfully, I really don't have a problem with people who don't "get" or don't like the Disney parks.

My problem with this whole issue has been that Pauline Frommer got numerous facts wrong or partially wrong when she wrote that piece, making it fairly evident that she did no research on WDW and had little or no experience with WDW. Yet she gave some pretty specific advice based on that incomplete picture that would, if followed, completely change the character of a WDW vacation, not to mention seriously affect the vacationer's ROI. And in a 3-page article, she never mentioned any additional sources of research or information - not a guidebook, not a web site, not a forum or newsfeed. It's this behavior that I find unacceptable in a professional journalist, particularly one with the name Frommer.

In other words, I'm no Disney lemming, but I'm also not an anti-Disney lemming. I seem to share a lot of opinions with you guys, just not our opinion of this article or Pauline's journalistic integrity.

 

[PrincessTiffany]

Ms. Tiffany, I am never bothered to answer honest questions and I'll give you an honest answer.

I think that Mr. Pirate had it best – I’m fighting for my memories. I have seen Disney for my entire life, both from the outside and as part of the inside. I know what Disney can accomplish when they really, really try; and I painfully know how much the world really needs “magic” to make it a better place.

I could go on for a long time and become very maudlin, but no one wants to read that. So I’ll stick to one memory.

It’s the memory of a bunch of animators watching the first cut of a scene. Everyone in the room was in tears because they were so full of pride. For most of them, working on Disney animated movie was the goal of a lifetime. And now, not only had that dream come true – but they thought they had actually created something that was finally worthy of the name “Disney”. It made them part of the legacy, it gave them something to point to and say “there – I created that”, it gave them the understanding that people will be watching that scene long after we are all gone.

That sense of pride – earned pride – caused people to work even harder. It filled their work with a sense of purpose and passion, emotions that carried down to the watching the first paying audience for the film laugh and scream and cry and applaud to the very end.

That is Disney to me: the ability to create the impossible, the willingness to put in all the effort to make it happen, the ability to communicate all that passion to the people who watch or visit. Walk through Disneyland or the Magic Kingdom or EPCOT Center and you can feel that surround you, you can feel the joy of creating real magic, the excitement of making the impossible.


Do you get that feeling walking around Pop Century? I don’t, there’s no magic there. I get associations – a fifty foot Mickey Mouse Phone tells me this is a Disney branded establishment – but the place doesn’t stir anyone’s soul. There’s no sense of pride in the place. There’s a sense of balance sheets and PowerPoint presentations – but no sense of someone standing there saying “only we at Disney could have pulled this off”.

Sure, some people will like the place. People watch ‘American Idol’, eat Cheez Whiz and follow the careers of professional wrestlers too. But that’s not the standard I want Disney to follow. “Just good enough” isn’t good enough; “but children like it” means the place is fell on the wrong side of "childish" and "child-like".

You don’t get 14 million people to visit a swamp in central Florida just to see the average, or the adequate or the “this-is-what-we-had-in-the-budget”. People want to feel the passion that Disney productions used to possess. They want to experience the real magic of true artists at work. They want more than just seeing characters – fiberglass or otherwise. They need more than just “Disney’s” in front of a hotel’s name for the place to feel special. They want to experience all that Disney used to produce, but so rarely does these days.

I want Disney to be great. I believe that is the best way to ensure the future success and growth of the company. Revenue management techniques will not get a single new visitor to WDW, but a brilliantly created unique attraction will bring them in the by the millions. It’s time that Disney – and its fans – expected more from the company. It's time that Disney actually created something they can be proud of again.

I’m just here doing my best to keep the bar raised.

Thank you so much for your eloquent response. I appreciate your honesty. I can honestly say you have given me a few things to ponder. Thanks again for the response.

 

[mking624]

Then why settle for the Pop Century?

You must feel that Disney could have done better. You must know that Disney should have done better. It's not a matter of what people like or dislike - it's what Disney is capable of doing and what they must do to maintain their position. Like I said, they sell Cheez Whiz by the tanker truck load - but "popularity" is not a standard that Disney should strive for.

For the same amount of money Disney could have built a resort with true imagination, true charm, true "only Disney could have done this" appeal. It would have taken imagination and work...all the traits that Disney used to be associatated with. Instead we got an accountants spreadsheet and about ten mintues of thought. Sure some people "like" it...but that's not the standard that should be applied.

I'm not trying to silence anyone's opinion, but there is a difference between "something made in the Disney tradition" and "something branded as Disney". Disney has been successful when it creates true Disney products; it fails when it relies only on the good will generated by the brand.

I do think people feel the difference between Real and Branded products - Pixar films, made in the tradition of Walt, are massive hits. Disney's own animated films - with ads filled with "Disney" and "Magic" every third word, have been box office disasters for a decade now. The general public desires good movies, good productions first and foremost. They see through the marketing hype and can sniff out substrandard efforts.

That is what is so distrubing about "fandom" - they don't seem to be able to separate the product from the brand anymore. In fact, most people want nothing but the brand. Honestly, would you ever have stayed at Universal's Pop Century Resort or would you have considered it a cheap and loud cinderblock motel? The most vocal supporters of Pop would be the loudest detractor of the same identical facility had it been located in a different spot. It's that same attitude presented in this thread over and over and over again - the presumption that "Disney" is better just becasue it's "Disney" and that all other opinions are driven by malice.

For every bad move that Disney makes, some suit can hold up fifty internet postings from fans and claim "the public likes it". We are as responsible for the decline at Disney as much as the company is. We are the ones lowering the bar - as in the settling for places like Pop Century and attacking a travel writer that dares hold a different opinion.

We didn't "settle" for Pop Century, we chose to stay there. We have that right, regardless of you trying to convince us that we should stay far away. We are the kind of people who like to try out different resorts and may choose to stay at one more than once if presented with the opportunity; we are not what some people refer to as "resort snobs." Some people feel that the Contemporary falls into "what Disney used to produce", but quite frankly, we have no interest in CR. We've toured the rooms (since managers have let us look into unoccupied rooms) and we've toured the resort...and it all seems blah to us. Unthemed in our opinion...and pretty much a typical hotel with the exception that a monorail runs through it and in that sense, there is where feel Disney could have done better. But we don't chide people who may feel differently...in fact a good friend of mine loves that resort. This past trip we decided to tour/explore the Polynesian. We weren't that impressed. And yet there are Poly devotees. That's fine, that meets their needs and their wants. We've explored moderates and found we like certain ones better than others. Same with the values.

Why are you so adamant to get people to agree with your opinion? Why can't you respect that people just may think differently than you on this without you having to tell them that they must feel a particular way? No, I must not feel Disney should have done better...because we think that that Pop Century is pretty cool...we just happen to like moderates better in terms of the actual quietness. We feel that among all the resorts, Pop Century is the most "Disney-fied" theme. Others may feel differently, and that's fine. But I am not required to feel the same way as you do regarding a particular resort. You say you're not trying to silence anyone's opinion, but then you say that I must feel a certain way about a resort that you don't care for.

It's fine that you have a particular opinion about a certain resort...people are allowed to either dislike or like a resort or how it's done or whatever. BUT, there also needs to be a level of respect of how others feel on the subject, and telling people that they MUST feel the way you do is downright disrespectful, and quite frankly, arrogant. I'm a grown adult who can make decisions on my own and I've had a good knack on being able to determine my own feelings for myself, thank you.

It doesn't seem to be us who are having problems separating things...we're not the ones who are holding adamant opinions about Disney and trying to force others to agree in a condescending way. But that must be me and my "fandom" speaking again, considering the number of times people have said that they are not 100% pro-Disney and that has been repeatedly ignored....

 

[grimley1968]

We didn't "settle" for Pop Century, we chose to stay there. We have that right, regardless of you trying to convince us that we should stay far away. We are the kind of people who like to try out different resorts and may choose to stay at one more than once if presented with the opportunity; we are not what some people refer to as "resort snobs." Some people feel that the Contemporary falls into "what Disney used to produce", but quite frankly, we have no interest in CR. We've toured the rooms (since managers have let us look into unoccupied rooms) and we've toured the resort...and it all seems blah to us. Unthemed in our opinion...and pretty much a typical hotel with the exception that a monorail runs through it and in that sense, there is where feel Disney could have done better. But we don't chide people who may feel differently...in fact a good friend of mine loves that resort. This past trip we decided to tour/explore the Polynesian. We weren't that impressed. And yet there are Poly devotees. That's fine, that meets their needs and their wants. We've explored moderates and found we like certain ones better than others. Same with the values.

Why are you so adamant to get people to agree with your opinion? Why can't you respect that people just may think differently than you on this without you having to tell them that they must feel a particular way? No, I must not feel Disney should have done better...because we think that that Pop Century is pretty cool...we just happen to like moderates better in terms of the actual quietness. We feel that among all the resorts, Pop Century is the most "Disney-fied" theme. Others may feel differently, and that's fine. But I am not required to feel the same way as you do regarding a particular resort. You say you're not trying to silence anyone's opinion, but then you say that I must feel a certain way about a resort that you don't care for.

It's fine that you have a particular opinion about a certain resort...people are allowed to either dislike or like a resort or how it's done or whatever. BUT, there also needs to be a level of respect of how others feel on the subject, and telling people that they MUST feel the way you do is downright disrespectful, and quite frankly, arrogant. I'm a grown adult who can make decisions on my own and I've had a good knack on being able to determine my own feelings for myself, thank you.

It doesn't seem to be us who are having problems separating things...we're not the ones who are holding adamant opinions about Disney and trying to force others to agree in a condescending way. But that must be me and my "fandom" speaking again, considering the number of times people have said that they are not 100% pro-Disney and that has been repeatedly ignored....

Very well said, and I agree.

Except for your choices of favorite resorts. My favorites are Poly and Wilderness Lodge, and I'm not a big fan of Pop Century or the All Stars at all. Uh oh, does this mean I'm not a member of the WDW "fandom" any longer?

But I think we're still in agreement that Ms. Frommer's article was a shoddy piece of work, riddled with factual errors, incorrect pricing, and bias, and it should never have been published in any form without proper fact-checking first and also some kind of editorial check against Ms. Frommer's bias.

 

[Another Voice]

And in a 3-page article, she never mentioned any additional sources of research or information - not a guidebook, not a web site, not a forum or newsfeed. It's this behavior that I find unacceptable in a professional journalist, particularly one with the name Frommer.

On which pages does the Birnbaum guide list other guide books, web sites, forums, newfeeds? Where in the Birnbaum guide do I find advice to SeaWorld, the phone number for the Marriott World Center, the operation hours of Wet ‘n Wild?

What I read in your posts is that you’re angry at the author for not providing other information to contradict her advice, that her opinions do not go unchallenged. And I still not seeing where these massive factual errors are. All I’ve seen is the hot dogs, her failure to play games with ticket prices and an inference that the Grand Floridian is a motel. Everything else people have brought up falls into the category of advice and opinion – and she’s being slammed for not having the proper opinion.

We didn't "settle" for Pop Century, we chose to stay there.

Where have I ever said people shouldn’t stay at the Pop Century or criticized anyone who stays there? You make me feel like I talked about an eight dollar hot dog.

My criticism is aimed at Disney. I think they did a poor job with Pop Century. The place is not up to Disney’s own standard of design, imagination and quality. For the same budget and for the same room price points, Disney could have created a truly great experience that would appeal even more to people and retain Disney’s level of quality.

Disney means more than just “owned by The Walt Disney Company (NSYE: DIS)”. Disney is a specific way of design to produce a specific affect on people. That philosophy turned a simple cartoon studio into a part of American culture. More people around the world recognize Cinderella Castle than the Capital Building, Buckingham Palace or the Taj Mahal. Main Street U.S.A. at Disneyland sparked the development of the modern pedestrian shopping mall. The name “Fantasyland” is part of the American vocabulary.

In my opinion a giant “Do the Funky Chicken” sign stapled to the top a four story cellblock just doesn’t fit with that tradition.

If you like the place, wonderful - enjoy your stays there. I found it a perfectly serviceable motel when I’ve stayed there. But answer this question – would you say the same great things about it had it been called ‘Marriott’s Pop Century’ resort and located on the other side of US192?

To answer that is to understand the difference between Disney the style and Disney the brand.

can honestly say you have given me a few things to ponder.

That is what makes posting worth the time.

 

[raidermatt]

Perhaps they get so caught up in their own thoughts, opinions , & knowledge that they forget we are real people with real feelings when they ridicule us and our opinions so harshly.
I think they sometimes just view us a screen name.

For my part, I try my best to be respectful of the other posters I am conversing with. My apologies if I fell short. I shall continue to work on it.

...they also sometimes come down very hard on DIS members that do not agree with their opinions.

As AV has said, we rarely if ever come down on the member. If we did the moderators would have booted us long ago. YoHo has Tourette's, but once you get past that he's almost bearable.

Again, it's really Disney we are coming down on. For all the criticisms of Disney management (and we don't all agree on every point), we all also still visit Disney parks and resorts to varying degrees. I'm extremely critical of DCA, but I still go there. I only go when I have multiple days to spend down there, but I do still go.

We aren't criticizing you for going or staying anywhere. We should all realize that by spending any money on anything Disney creates that we don't think is really worthy of the Disney name, we are supporting it in a way. But since we all do that to some extent, that's merely a statement of fact and not a criticism of anybody in particular.

The criticism is of DISNEY for the way they are doing things. That's a completely different question from whether it's fun to ride Primevil Whirl. I won't debate you on whether or not it's fun. That's purely a matter of personal preference. Just as deciding whether or not to stay at Pop Century is a matter of personal preference.

But the hows and whys behind those things are a different matter. Once you understand how and why Disney did things, there's just no way to look at some of the things that are done today and say they measure up to that standard of effort and care.

Is that just an opinion? Not really. We can compare the business practices of Target and Nordstrom (just an example) and objectively say there are differences in the way they operate and therefore the type of service/product they provide, and nobody would say that's "just your opinion". Why can we not say the same thing about different eras of the Walt Disney Company?

 

[raidermatt]

One last little comment on the whole "You're a bunch of meanies" thing...

I just opened up another thread and immediately saw references to Disney elitists and snobbery. We've got thick skins and can take it, but I think you'll find that the posts that are attacking the poster and not the post don't usually come from us.

 

[grimley1968]

What I read in your posts is that you’re angry at the author for not providing other information to contradict her advice, that her opinions do not go unchallenged. And I still not seeing where these massive factual errors are. All I’ve seen is the hot dogs, her failure to play games with ticket prices and an inference that the Grand Floridian is a motel. Everything else people have brought up falls into the category of advice and opinion – and she’s being slammed for not having the proper opinion.

I'll list some of the errors that I can remember:

- There is the hot dog thing
- There is the inference that all Disney lodging falls under the category of "motels", which I've posted on enough already
- She incorrectly stated that babies and toddlers cannot be brought along to your resort if you already have 4 in a room. She used this incorrect "fact" to form a conclusion that staying onsite is not the best option for bringing babies. That conclusion is fine, but she did not use other facts to support it. Bad writing there.
- When she "corrected" the incorrection, she STILL got the age wrong.
- She got the daily price of the Dining Plan wrong, by about a 20% difference. That's excusable if were corrected before publication, but it wasn't, and she used this incorrect pricing to form her conclusion that the Dining Plan is just too expensive. A 20% drop in the actual cost versus her wrong data makes a huge difference to a lot of people as to whether the price of the DP is "too expensive."
- She was right about pricing kids 10+ as adults in the DP, and in park tickets. However, there is no context with this fact, as every park I've been to in the last decade does the same thing. You can't just fault Disney for this, and let everyone else get off scot free. But she faults Disney for it anyway, with her comment about the DMV.
- There were others, but I can't remember now which now, and don't have the inclination to participate any further in this exercise.

Any one of these facts being wrong, I could probably deal with. But to have all of these things wrong, in an article that was, what 3 pages, long? That's an awfully short amount of space to have all these glaring errors, and invalid and incomplete conclusions based on them. It makes her bias come through loud and clear. It's not honest, and I don't like dishonesty in reporting or writing.

I'm not sure why people are choosing to ignore mine and many others' repeated and thorough explanations of why we think this is a shoddy piece of journalism, and instead focus on why they think Disney "isn't what is used to be", brand versus product, etc. That's not what this thread is about. It's about a poorly researched and written piece of "journalism", that with its bias could lead otherwise uninformed vacation researchers with a negative impression that is not based on demonstrated, and correct, facts. I feel this way about many journalists and the articles they write, no matter what the subject or their conclusions, and this Frommer piece is a great example of what journalism seems to increasingly be about these days.

 

[minnie61650]

For my part, I try my best to be respectful of the other posters I am conversing with. My apologies if I fell short. I shall continue to work on it.

No need to apogize. I was not refering to your posts. I think your posts (at least all of the ones I have read ) are very respectful

As AV has said, we rarely if ever come down on the member. If we did the moderators would have booted us long ago.

Perhaps I should not have said "come down" on the member.
Perhaps I should say some of the members on this rumors board seem to think it is OK to make fun of other DIS members just because we may have different points of view.

Just my 2 cents

 

[raidermatt]

The hot dog thing has been covered, ad nauseum, but nobody actually answered my question... did she originally say a Disney hot dog costs $7? Because it now not only says "meal", which is more than $7 by the way, but it says theme park, not Disney.

But either way, I see criticism of her for talking about non-Disney stuff because she was only asked about Disney, but then I see criticism of her for quoting Disney info and not quoting all the prices for everything else in the Orlando area.

There is the inference that all Disney lodging falls under the category of "motels", which I've posted on enough already

I can't find any inference. Was that changed too?

She incorrectly stated that babies and toddlers cannot be brought along to your resort if you already have 4 in a room. She used this incorrect "fact" to form a conclusion that staying onsite is not the best option for bringing babies. That conclusion is fine, but she did not use other facts to support it. Bad writing there.

Fair enough. Bad writing abounds.

When she "corrected" the incorrection, she STILL got the age wrong.

Fair enough again. She, like thousands of other writers on the web, didn't do enough research.

She got the daily price of the Dining Plan wrong, by about a 20% difference.

I guess she completely removed any reference to the price? Either that or I'm just missing it.

...she used this incorrect pricing to form her conclusion that the Dining Plan is just too expensive. A 20% drop in the actual cost versus her wrong data makes a huge difference to a lot of people as to whether the price of the DP is "too expensive."

Doesn't matter what it does to anybody else's opinion. "Too expensive" was, and still is, HER opinion. Yes, wrong data, if it was there originially, is a problem. But it has been fixed and all of her suggestions for saving money on meals are still 100% valid.

She was right about pricing kids 10+ as adults in the DP, and in park tickets. However, there is no context with this fact, as every park I've been to in the last decade does the same thing. You can't just fault Disney for this, and let everyone else get off scot free. But she faults Disney for it anyway, with her comment about the DMV.

Again, she was asked about Disney, but when she provides info about Disney she is criticized? There was nothing to indicate that anybody else's prices are any different.

There were others, but I can't remember now which now, and don't have the inclination to participate any further in this exercise.

Good idea.


Nobody is disputing that there were a few inaccuracies in the original article. But much of the criticism of the writer goes way beyond just wanting a few inaccuracies checked.

 

[grimley1968]

The hot dog thing has been covered, ad nauseum, but nobody actually answered my question... did she originally say a Disney hot dog costs $7? Because it now not only says "meal", which is more than $7 by the way, but it says theme park, not Disney.

Yes, she said a hot dog itself costs $7. She corrected it later. But it was kind of like a genie out of a bottle by that time. The difference between a hot dog alone, and a combo meal is significant, if you are researching overall pricing.

And there was definitely an inference about all Disney resorts being "motels." She made her derogatory comment about the All-Stars, which I admit I'm not wild about myself. But then she made a comment about other "motels" that ring the perimeter of the lake around MK. There are no motels there. A motel is lodging where you literally can park next to your room. Except for the FW cabins, I know of no place that offers that little feature near MK. At the very least, GF, Poly, CR and WL are all hotels, if you don't wish to consider them resorts (I consider GF, Poly and WL resorts and CR a hotel personally). "Motel" tends to have a pejorative sound to it, and just isn't appropriate terminology in this case. People unfamiliar with the lodging near MK might be led to believe the offerings near MK are about the same as the Value resorts, and I think nothing could be further from the truth.

But all these "facts" should NEVER have appeared in an article meant for public consumption, without checking them first. She was irresponsible for publishing this. Anytime you draw conclusions about something, someone or a place based on facts, and those conclusions very possibly affect how others form their own conclusions and/or spend their hard-earned dollar, you really need to check your facts, and also your preconceived notions. Her failure to do so was highly negligent for a "journalist", especially considering she could have corrected every single one of her facts by staying in her office chair and getting on the web. Better yet would have been an actual visit to the place she criticizes so much.