Frommer article full of WDW misinformation

[nick262]

Since the statement was about a hot dog meal, wouldn't we include the price of a drink? I know if somebody who had never been to WDW asked me what a hot dog meal cost, I wouldn't assume they wouldn't want a soda or something.

Added in Edit: The cheapest beverage at Casey's is a small bottle of water for $1.25, which would bring the meal cost to $7.04.

I can't remember, does that include tax?

The original article stated that a hot dog alone was $7, she has since then gone in and edited the article and put a disclaimer at the end noting the change. She also stated that they would need a second room because the infant would put them in the 5 person catagory thus she would have to pay for 2 rooms. She "shakes with anger" over the soaring prices of a WDW ticket but fails to point out that is it not much cheaper to go to SW or UO. Now I have not personally been to UO and it has been years since I went to SW in Orlando, but if the prices are simular to SW in SD, a hot dog meal will cost about $7 as well. She is giving the reader an impression that she would save money by going to the other parks. Not necessary true. All theme parks are expensive. And any minimal savings would be nullified by the cost of the rental car and gas or taxi. She also misquoted the cost of the dining plan and the age that a child is concidered adult. Again, she has gone in an fixed the above mistakes but the impressions are still there.

 

[YoHo]

She's not giving that impression at all, she's saying they'd get a better VALUE by going to those other parks.

 

[raidermatt]

I assume she originally said a Hot Dog at DISNEY? Because now it not only clarifies "meal", but it says THEME PARK.

But ok, she originally made three mistakes, which she corrected. The impression is only there for those who read the article before she was bombarded with emails from Dis'ers. Everybody who reads it from that point on won't know any different.

She never said US or SW were not expensive. In fact, she talks about theme parks in general being expensive several times, as well as skyrocketing prices in ORLANDO. Again, not directed specifically at Disney. If that was a change you failed to mention, ok, but again, she changed it.

 

[mking624]

She's not giving that impression at all, she's saying they'd get a better VALUE by going to those other parks.

Value can mean monetary or nonmonetary. Monetary wise, her recommendation is not necessarily the better value. That's just finances, not opinion there. Time wise, the value depends on the person. To me, her complaining about the cost of WDW and then advising other options gives the impression she is trying to find the best cost for someone who very obviously is looking at a budget. She never tells the budget minded person that her advice really isn't different than the price of what she was previously complaining about. All that said, it is pretty clear that she is intended to give the impression of a more affordable trip...meaning its referring not just to time being spent, but money as well. She begins all her list of recommendations by stating this specifically:
"Since keeping this trip affordable is a top priority, here's some advice for saving on your vacation."

because she's recommending only spending 3 days at WDW so a 5th day is not a good value at any price.

What she recommends is not necessarily what the family wants. The question asked about a 7 day 6 night trip to Walt Disney World. Not a 3 day trip to WDW and 4 days everywhere else. If that had been the case, then yes I'd say that adding extra days to a 3 day ticket is not the best option.

She is in this case pretty wrong, but in fact I think she's erring on the side of being too nice. The DIsney Dinning Plan has ruined the restaurants and made it nearly impossible to get a table unless you call months in advance. Neither of these things used to be true. The money saved is offset by the time needed to plan the vacation (something hard to do with young children) and the reduction in quality of the food. And that's not to say anything of the difficulty of actually using all your credits, especially given the small children involved.

Aside from the difficulty of getting an ADR, I'd say the rest of your statements are pure opinion. DH & I didn't feel that at all. And while there are others who agree with you, there are also others who agree with me on the DDP. I know you weren't discussing this with me but with someone else...my only complaint about her DDP comment was regarding her email response in which she quoted a wrong price, one that was higher than it really is.

 

[mking624]

She never said US or SW were not expensive. In fact, she talks about theme parks in general being expensive several times, as well as skyrocketing prices in ORLANDO. Again, not directed specifically at Disney. If that was a change you failed to mention, ok, but again, she changed it.

Here's what is still in the article, just wanted to share so you know she did have a Disney specific comment...
"The cost is another matter, and this is what gets me shaking, not with fear but with anger. Prices in Orlando are skyrocketing, with theme park hot dog meals costing a whopping $7 and a one-day entry ticket at Disney World soaring to $71 per adult (defined as age 10 and above—tell that to the DMV). Since keeping this trip affordable is a top priority, here's some advice for saving on your vacation."

One day ticket prices to UO and SW are comparable, and both of those parks also define "adults" as age 10 and above.

 

[YoHo]

mking,

All of those items aside from her mistake in an email to you which was NOT posted by her are opinions. There's nothing inaccurate or misleading about them. I'm quite sure that had it been a forum rather then an article, there would have been more give and take between her and the questioner and that would have lead to a more precise answer.

Perhaps a more useful thing would have been to email her with a link to this site and in general evangilize on the potential for online help with a Disney Vacation.

Of course, she may come here and assume we're all looney, but still.

 

[mjstaceyuofm]

Sorry – but I think the guidebook is probably a much better description of how the normal, average vacationing American sees WDW than internet posters. The average American does see a seven dollar hot dog, they do see the Pop Century as a cinderblock motel, they do look at what a one day admission costs and really don’t care how “cheap “ it is to add days nine and ten (and by Disney’s own admission, nearly a third of all admission at WDW are one-day tickets).

AV... C'mon. I consider you very poignant and smart with your analysis of how TWDC manages its assets (ie the parks), but this article was ridiculous and riddled with misinformation. To rebut what you've said above I'd offer this: for every "average" American that chooses to go to WDW for a day or two (or more), there are plenty of people that that "average" American knows that has been there before or even posts on WDW chat boards that are more than willing to throw out a few real pictures of WDW and advice for them. I know I do it all the time to people/family/friends/coworkers I know who tell me they're thinking about going to WDW. I often tell them to keep their expectations guarded because I know how daunting a WDW vacation can be. I give them advice and pointers so they don't go down there and think that all WDW is is expensive food, 45 minute waits for Peter Pan and cheesy hotel/motels.... We may not everything about WDW, but we know how to deal with it. Bottom line is this lady is tainting the average American that thinks of going to WDW instead of offering them sound advice.

 

[YoHo]

Here's what is still in the article, just wanted to share so you know she did have a Disney specific comment...
"The cost is another matter, and this is what gets me shaking, not with fear but with anger. Prices in Orlando are skyrocketing, with theme park hot dog meals costing a whopping $7 and a one-day entry ticket at Disney World soaring to $71 per adult (defined as age 10 and above—tell that to the DMV). Since keeping this trip affordable is a top priority, here's some advice for saving on your vacation."

One day ticket prices to UO and SW are comparable, and both of those parks also define "adults" as age 10 and above.

But that's 1 sentence and she has 2 more pages of advice much of which has nothing to do with which parks to go to. You can't couple those 2 items indiscriminately.

 

[mking624]

But that's 1 sentence and she has 2 more pages of advice much of which has nothing to do with which parks to go to. You can't couple those 2 items indiscriminately.

Actually I can couple them together...she makes the statement and then immediately begins to recommend options to make it more "affordable", including the ticket options (which then becomes advice on where to go). Now I'm not arguing about on site vs off site since I do realize sometimes offsite can be cheaper, though there are also times when DH & I have been able to stay onsite for cheaper. What I'm saying is that when you tell someone "I'm going to tell you how you can save money and make this affordable", it's misleading when you then provide information that winds up benig more expensive.

 

[YoHo]

It certainly is more expensive then getting a 5/6 day pass, but then, since she makes it pretty clear that there's nothing they'll want to do at Disney for those 2 days, it would be even cheaper if she recommended they shorten their stay down to a long weekend.
Again, day 4 and 5 are worthless at any price as the author sees it, so the fact that Seaworld is equally priced is irrelevent.

 

[Another Voice]

but this article was ridiculous and riddled with misinformation.

But that’s what seems to be falling apart here.

She gets tagged for the cost of hot dog (“burn her for forgetting the apple wedges!!”) when in reality the price of a hot dog meal - becasue Disney refuses you the choice of just ordering a hot dog - actually turns out to be four cents higher than her figure.

She sights the ticket price at WDW as an example, and she’s smeared for not listing the prices for everywhere else to make Disney seem “better”. But in reality the “every kid is doing it" excuse doesn’t mean people will come home with fatter wallets.

And for this everyone makes it sounds like she had just given a speech at Columbia University.

Instead she gave lots of advice. And frankly, advicethat are much more in line with the thinking of the average traveler than with the people on this board – in my own humble opinion. It’s the ferocity of the attacks on her that are very telling. I think that the average “fan” has a horribly distorted view of how the rest of the world sees Disney, what the average traveler expects from Disney, and that’s leading to both a serious problem for “fandom” in general and leads Disney to make very bad business decisions.

Certainly have the Truth Squad impale anyone who dares quote incorrect hot dog prices is not going to make “fans” popular with travel writers or travel publications.

 

[WillCAD]

It's not misleading at all. A hot dog meal does cost $7 (or, it does at DL, Hotdog, Chips, no soda) and a single day ticket is $71.
LAter on in the article when she actually discusses purchasing tickets, she recommends a 3 day pass. I suppose you could claim that singling out WDW's price is misleading, but really, come on reading intentional bias into it is a bit much.

It's misleading because she is not recommending buying single-day tickets, she's recommending buying a 3-day ticket, which is $203, or $67.67 per day. Sure, only a 4$ difference, but the point is not that tiny $4, it's that she never even mentions that the price per day drops when you add more days, even if you're only buying a 3-day ticket. Nor does she mention the actual price of the 3-day ticket she's reccomending, a tidbit that can be found in about 1 minute online if she had bothered to do even 10 minutes of research before writing a 3-page article.

Heck, I've checked 3 different web sites to get facts just to write this post!

And I'm sorry, but #1 she specifically recommends not seeing all the parks, so how many days you need to see all of them is completely irrelevent.
Further, MGM and AK are both largely considered half day parks. A problem that is only accentuated by the age of the children involved. She recommends 2 days for MK and 1 for AK. That sounds perfectly fine.

It wouldn't be relevant if she wasn't recommending skipping entire theme parks and water parks just because she and her children don't like them. I don't care for the water parks, but I would never presume to recommend that people skip them just because I don't like them - instead, I recommend that people look at the water park maps and planning materials, and decide for themselves whether there is anything there, since I understand that my opinion means nothing; it's the FACTS that are important.

And yet they are low rent, cheap and unthemed Motels. A little Hyperbole never hurt anyone....except for that one time, but she deserved it.

That's a gross misrepresentation. You think a hotel (NOT motel) with 40-foot tall statues of Disney movie characters, musical instruments, pop culture icons, or sports equipment is "unthemed"? You think they're low-rent or cheap just because they're not $300 a night? Think again.

All-Star Sports has a Sports theme.
All-Star Music has a music theme.
All-Star Movies has a Disney movie theme.
Pop Century has a 20th century American popular culture theme.

Perhaps not physically, but they would have the advantage of not using the Disney branded Cattle cars err, busses. In some cases it is certainly faster then trying to get places from the Values.
And of course, none of this addresses her main point which is the true value in improved accommodations per dollar spent offsite.

Oh, so if we twist the whole deal around then you can justify a completely untrue statement as being a matter of opinion? Well, it's my opinion that if you put a scale on a map and measure the distance from the parks to the Values and to the nearest off-site hotels, you'll find that the Values are closer. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

Now, to the other issue - "value" is a measure of what you pay vs what you get. Off-site places give you larger rooms for less money. On-site rooms give you more perks and more atmosphere, and closer proximity to the parks, for more money. "Value" in this case depends entirely on what each person values - location, perks, room size, cost, food options, or atmosphere, or some combination thereof.

But that's a completely different topic - the original topic was that Pauline said that "They're cinderblock motels, packed with loud school groups for much of the year, that are located farther from the Disney attractions than most of the (often nicer) motels that are clustered around the gates of Disney World." And all three of those assertions are completely untrue. They're not matters of opinion - they're inaccurate facts.

AND, she goes out of her way to mention the camp ground and even to sing it's praises. Perhaps you missed that. The campground is demonstratively more Disney then the Values.

Fort Wilderness Campground is a wonderful place. I don't know any avid camper who has stayed there without being very impressed by every aspect of FW. But "more Disney than the Values?" Again, that's a matter of opinion. I dunno; maybe Pioneer Hall seems more Disney to you than Classic Hall or Cinema Hall, but hey, more power to ya.

This is her opinion and your opinion. this isn't an inaccuracy. Get over it.

That's your opinion and I disagree with it. Get over it.

because she's recommending only spending 3 days at WDW so a 5th day is not a good value at any price.

Recommending skipping half of what WDW has to off is no value, when you consider that you could add the extra days needed to experience that stuff for 1/10th of what it would cost to experience her alternatives at SeaWorld or Universal.

Says her the experienced travel writer and mother of young children. Again, this is an opinion and she has a right to it. It isn't in any conceivable way an inaccuracy.

She's stating opinion as fact, which makes it inaccurate - it's not a fact, it's her opinion.

She is in this case pretty wrong, but in fact I think she's erring on the side of being too nice. The DIsney Dinning Plan has ruined the restaurants and made it nearly impossible to get a table unless you call months in advance. Neither of these things used to be true. The money saved is offset by the time needed to plan the vacation (something hard to do with young children) and the reduction in quality of the food. And that's not to say anything of the difficulty of actually using all your credits, especially given the small children involved.
Have you not read the many threads on bilking the system on this very site?
Value can be measured as time wasted on the phone at 7am 6 months before the vacation too.

I haven't been thrilled with how the DDP has filled up the restaurants, either, since I'm the type who prefers not to plan my meals more than a day in advance, but I wouldn't say that it's "ruined" the restaurants. It's just made them really difficult to get into.

For me, the DDP is not a good value and I never use it. But it IS a good value for many people. If it wasn't, the restaurants wouldn't be so full, capice?

Well, you've said itself and made yourself look bad in the process. This is an opinion. There's no facts to be erroneous.

Yeah, I have egg all over my face. I'm slime. I'm a maroon.

But that's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it, no matter what yours is.

And most Americans talk about going to Walt Disney World and Epcot too. She probably meant to imply both parks.

Well that's just silly. Have you met most Americans and discussed WDW and Epcot with them?

And let's stick to what she wrote, not what you think she meant, okay?

 

[PrincessTiffany]

What I see is an article that appears to be written from the point of the view of a more "average" traveler than the people on this board. A seven dollar hot dog is still a seven dollar hot dog whether paid with cash or an expensive "Dining Plan". Furthermore, the artilce seemed to be mostly aimed at saving cash for the typical vacationer with an interest in Disney that is short of the "I dress my cat like a princess" level. It is shocking to many, but I think if ask most travellers they will tell you that they think SeaWorld is more interesting to childern than Epcot. So it doesn't matter if a 10-day ticket is "cheaper per day" when most people have no intention of spending 10 days at WDW anyway

Frankly - how many average Americans can afford a ten day vacation?

People here have appear to have more bias than the author of this article and fewer real facts about vacation spending. I'm just amazed by the level of bile and hated being spewed. To me, it just fits into a long term - and disturbing - trend I've seen among "Disney fans". The parks are becoming more and more the private clubhouse and less and less appealing to the general public.

That's a serious danger to the future of the company.

Just a quick question for Another Voice. I just opened up my email and opened up my link to this thread and have read through it. I guess my question is, If you have such an apparent distaste for Disney, why are you a member of the Disboards? I haven't been here too long, but I thought it was a board for Disney lovers to share tips and suggestions. You don't seem to like it at all. I think this is the first time I've run across you on here, so I don't really know you, and I'm being sincere in asking, not sarcastic. Just wondering.

 

[PrincessTiffany]

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe the kids meal hot dog is just a hot dog? Then I guess it wouldn't really be a kid's MEAL then, huh?

We were at Casey's in the Magic Kingdom on Saturday and you would buy a hot dog without anything else.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Just a quick question for Another Voice. I just opened up my email and opened up my link to this thread and have read through it. I guess my question is, If you have such an apparent distaste for Disney, why are you a member of the Disboards? I haven't been here too long, but I thought it was a board for Disney lovers to share tips and suggestions. You don't seem to like it at all. I think this is the first time I've run across you on here, so I don't really know you, and I'm being sincere in asking, not sarcastic. Just wondering.

Check Mr. Voice's post count. Then, since you haven't been here too long, go back and research some of his postings and then you'll see where he's coming from...It's all there, he's been here for years, his credentials speak for themselves and this silly "why do you come to the DIS when you obviously hate Disney" routine is just tooooo old.

 

[YoHo]

Peter, I think you're being a bit harsh. Though I agree it's a question asked every time a rumorsnewb ventures down here.

We should have a FAQ just for this forum.

 

[PrincessTiffany]

Check Mr. Voice's post count. Then, since you haven't been here too long, go back and research some of his postings and then you'll see where he's coming from...It's all there, he's been here for years, his credentials speak for themselves and this silly "why do you come to the DIS when you obviously hate Disney" routine is just tooooo old.

I don't know what routine you are referring to. I don't have a routine, I just wanted to know what all the animosity was about. Anyways, I addressed the question to Another Voice. Maybe my "credentials" weren't good enough for a response. Also, I originally came across this thread on the theme parks and stategies board. It has apparently been moved by one of the moderators and when I clicked on the link in my email it apparently brought me to "your" board. I didn't "venture" here and I certainly won't be venturing back if this is one of your typical discussions. Just too nasty for me. I guess I'm just one of those goody-goody disney people. Sorry for the interruption. Now back to your verbal berating of each other.

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

Well, if you think I'm being too tough then I must be...I apologize if that's how it seems but honestly this road is so warn I feel the pot holes are swallowing the car...

Mr. Voice, Yoho, The raider fan etc. don't hate the Disney they were raised on...They hate what has happened to it and is happening to it still and lament the losses of what remains of the entertainment company that Walt's ideals shaped...They're fighting for their memories, I think.

 

[YoHo]

It's misleading because she is not recommending buying single-day tickets, she's recommending buying a 3-day ticket, which is $203, or $67.67 per day. Sure, only a 4$ difference, but the point is not that tiny $4, it's that she never even mentions that the price per day drops when you add more days, even if you're only buying a 3-day ticket. Nor does she mention the actual price of the 3-day ticket she's reccomending, a tidbit that can be found in about 1 minute online if she had bothered to do even 10 minutes of research before writing a 3-page article.

Heck, I've checked 3 different web sites to get facts just to write this post!

It is an oversight on her part, she's not telling them about the $12ish they're saving, but again, it's not relevent given the advice she's giving them. And it's still not a lie or a misrepresentation. It's an omission for the sake of brevity.

It wouldn't be relevant if she wasn't recommending skipping entire theme parks and water parks just because she and her children don't like them. I don't care for the water parks, but I would never presume to recommend that people skip them just because I don't like them - instead, I recommend that people look at the water park maps and planning materials, and decide for themselves whether there is anything there, since I understand that my opinion means nothing; it's the FACTS that are important.

It isn't her job to present the facts and nothing but the facts. She's giving advice. That's clearly the nature of the column. Somebody asked a question seeking advice and got it. Clearly if all the vacationer wanted was the facts, then they themselves could have gotten them.

That's a gross misrepresentation. You think a hotel (NOT motel) with 40-foot tall statues of Disney movie characters, musical instruments, pop culture icons, or sports equipment is "unthemed"? You think they're low-rent or cheap just because they're not $300 a night? Think again.

All-Star Sports has a Sports theme.
All-Star Music has a music theme.
All-Star Movies has a Disney movie theme.
Pop Century has a 20th century American popular culture theme.

YOu clearly are new to the rumors and news board. I'm not going to go into it here except to say that there's a wealth of threads dating back almost 8 years now discussing the issues with the values. If you understand how and why Disneyland and Walt Disney World became part of American culture. I mean understand why on a nuts and bolts level why, then you would understand why the values as built fail. There's plenty of threads on it here. Agree or disagree after you've read them.

Oh, so if we twist the whole deal around then you can justify a completely untrue statement as being a matter of opinion? Well, it's my opinion that if you put a scale on a map and measure the distance from the parks to the Values and to the nearest off-site hotels, you'll find that the Values are closer. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

Fine, but that really isn't helpful

Now, to the other issue - "value" is a measure of what you pay vs what you get. Off-site places give you larger rooms for less money. On-site rooms give you more perks and more atmosphere, and closer proximity to the parks, for more money. "Value" in this case depends entirely on what each person values - location, perks, room size, cost, food options, or atmosphere, or some combination thereof.

The questioner values paying $1600 for her vacation (which I suspect is impossible for a 6 day 7 night vacation including airfare)

But that's a completely different topic - the original topic was that Pauline said that "They're cinderblock motels, packed with loud school groups for much of the year, that are located farther from the Disney attractions than most of the (often nicer) motels that are clustered around the gates of Disney World." And all three of those assertions are completely untrue. They're not matters of opinion - they're inaccurate facts.

Actually, the values are used almost exclusively for the various camps and comps at the WWoS complex. Foreign tour groups tend to use them more then other onsite hotels. While it certainly is hyperbole, I think it is fair to say that you're generally more packed in at the values.

Fort Wilderness Campground is a wonderful place. I don't know any avid camper who has stayed there without being very impressed by every aspect of FW. But "more Disney than the Values?" Again, that's a matter of opinion. I dunno; maybe Pioneer Hall seems more Disney to you than Classic Hall or Cinema Hall, but hey, more power to ya.

It's a matter of understanding why Disney is what it is. If I am presented with somebody on such a limited budget and I want them to get the most true Disney bang for the buck AND they're willing to camp, there is no way I'd send them somewhere else. IF not, I'd recommend offsite and give them tips on how to explore WDW without staying on site.


[quote
Recommending skipping half of what WDW has to off is no value, when you consider that you could add the extra days needed to experience that stuff for 1/10th of what it would cost to experience her alternatives at SeaWorld or Universal.
[/quote]
Why not? Half of what Disney has to offer is complete rubbish. For kids that age and with their budget? better to spend the extra $12 and let the kids get soaked by Shamu.

She's stating opinion as fact, which makes it inaccurate - it's not a fact, it's her opinion.

This is simply not true. It's an opinion piece start to finish. She fixed the actual inaccuracies. You're free to try and get hired by MSN travel and then you can write your own opinion piece.

I haven't been thrilled with how the DDP has filled up the restaurants, either, since I'm the type who prefers not to plan my meals more than a day in advance, but I wouldn't say that it's "ruined" the restaurants. It's just made them really difficult to get into.

The food porn threads over in the dining forum beg to differ.

For me, the DDP is not a good value and I never use it. But it IS a good value for many people. If it wasn't, the restaurants wouldn't be so full, capice?

perceived value and actual value are different. Hense why the person asked this lady the question in the first place.

Well that's just silly. Have you met most Americans and discussed WDW and Epcot with them?

It's something Disney has admitted to having to fight all the time.

And let's stick to what she wrote, not what you think she meant, okay?

You yourself are putting meaning into her words that simply isn't there. Casting aspersions, implying that she has a vendetta against Disney.

 

[minnie61650]

Well, if you think I'm being too tough then I must be...I apologize if that's how it seems but honestly this road is so warn I feel the pot holes are swallowing the car...

Mr. Voice, Yoho, The raider fan etc. don't hate the Disney they were raised on...They hate what has happened to it and is happening to it still and lament the losses of what remains of the entertainment company that Walt's ideals shaped...They're fighting for their memories, I think.

I have ventured down to these rumor boards a few times and I have learned a lot from Another Voice, Yoho, The raider fan etc.

I sometimes feel while they may "lament the losses of what remains of the entertainment company that Walt's ideals shaped..." they also sometimes come down very hard on DIS members that do not agree with their opinions.

Perhaps they get so caught up in their own thoughts, opinions , & knowledge that they forget we are real people with real feelings when they ridicule us and our opinions so harshly.
I think they sometimes just view us a screen name.

JMHO