Frommer article full of WDW misinformation

[mking624]

That's the point, isn't it. The average traveller sees "seven dollars for a hot dog!"; Disney fans are screaming "She's evil because she didn't see the fries!"

I'm an average American traveler. When I see the cost of something, I check to see what specifically comes with it. I wonder how many people just order something at any restaurant without checking to see what the cost of it includes? For example, when I go to any given restaurant, I want to see if a particular meal will come with sides, or if sides have to be ordered separately.

People are trying to use nuance and spin to overcome the obvious and clear point of the article. WDW is expensive for the average, normal American family. You can yell and kick and scream about Universal and off-site and "feeling the magic" - but most people care about the hit to their wallet, not the goose bumbs they're supposed to feel when their motel room looks over over a giant bowling pin.

Most people are not so all enthralled with all things Disney to overlook or to even care about the difference between with drink or without. That's the point of view from the article. The piece was about get the most real value from an Orlando vacation. And for most people that means only a couple very expensive days at WDW and money to spend at the other attractions.

The question the family asked was not about an Orlando vacation in general. It was about a WDW vacation. Now I'm not saying Ms. Frommer was wrong in presenting options other than WDW, but she wasn't even upfront about those costs either. And again, you bring up "most people"...where are you getting these statistics from? And I didn't realize that sharing actual facts such as price quotes taken directly from UO & SW was considered using nuance and spins...?

And that's what I find so interesting - the absolute hate directed at anyone who does not show Disney to proper amount of love.

I'm not quite sure how many different people have to say the exact same thing to you...it has nothing to do with Disney specifically, or her opinion on Disney, it has to do with the wrong information that she is presenting as fact when it indeed is not. You imply that we're somehow full of hatred for pointing out inaccuracies, and yet I'm not seeing a ton of respect for those who feel that we shouldn't just accept whatever line is fed to us.

 

[Another Voice]

You imply that we're somehow full of hatred for pointing out inaccuracies,

I don't know about you - but 13 pages seems to be go way beyond "pointing out inaccuracies". And if you would look at the name calling, insults and biased statements that I culled from just two pages of this thread, that's a little more than finger pointing as well.

That is what makes this thread so interesting. There really is an attack pack mentality that goes on through here. She was perceived as a threat and people are going to amazingly lengths to bash her - including demands and letters to the publisher. Of course, this is all done with the most noble of intentions (protecting the poor, unknowing vacationer), but it sure feels like there's a lot more going on here than fact checking.

To me, sadly, this is more a comment on the shape of "Disney fans" than it is on the alleged journalistic shortcomings of some writer.

 

[YoHo]

Personal preference might determine what the better value of time spent is. However, in terms of money spent, the option that Ms. Frommer presented is more expensive. I bring it up because Ms. Frommer made it a point to mention how high Disney prices are getting while failing to mention that other ticket prices are pretty comparable.

Which is irrelevent to the article.

I just read the article again, she has corrections on the hotdog thing (where do you buy a hotdog not in meal form?) as well as the picture and the under 3 counting against the room.

Aside from that, I found her article to be informative and well reasoned. I think she undersold Epcot, but given the age of the kids involved, I agree that SeaWorld in particular would be better.

 

[The Big Daddy]

I just read the article again, she has corrections on the hotdog thing (where do you buy a hotdog not in meal form?)

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe the kids meal hot dog is just a hot dog? Then I guess it wouldn't really be a kid's MEAL then, huh?

 

[nick262]

So let me get this straight. A news organization can print whatever they want regardless of the facts and you will just sit back and let it be? Since when is it ok to spread false information? No wonder our media is in the state that it is in. This reader came to Ms. Frommer asking for facts, trusting that she would receive them, and she did not get them. I state again, if the article had been about Sea World, The San Diego Zoo, Wild Animal Park or any other park or business that I am very familiar with, I would have still sent in a request for correction. I do not know where you get "hate" out of a request for an accurate article? The only reason that I requested another reporter to do a new piece is because she clearly was not willing to do any research on the topic based on the article and the follow up letter. That research including all of the resorts and parks in the article, not just Disney. To tell you the truth, I had never even heard of her or her family before this article. And I am now more disinclined to seek out her advice on any and all travel destination.

 

[YoHo]

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the errors are. Does a hotdog meal not cost $7? Are there not cheaper options for quick service meals then Disney itself? Are there not better food options at any price then Disney?

Are off site hotels not less expensive, particularly the condos/suites? Would Sea World not perhaps be better for young children then Epcot?

The original asker of the question was looking for an opinion. They got one.

The write placed a Value, her perceived value on every aspect of a Disney vacation and gave advice based on that value. That's what someone asked to give an opinion does. The fact that a 10 day ticket may be cheaper in the long run doesn't matter if the opinionater sees no value in spending 10 days at WDW.

 

[mking624]

I don't know about you - but 13 pages seems to be go way beyond "pointing out inaccuracies". And if you would look at the name calling, insults and biased statements that I culled from just two pages of this thread, that's a little more than finger pointing as well.

Well many of the posts are just responses to each other, much like you and I are doing right now. I wouldn't consider that hatred. And just because something is 13 pages doesn't mean something is filled with hatred. As far as name calling and insults and biased statements...well let's see, we've been told we're full of bile and hate, we've been told we have too much time on our hands, and I've even been recommended to be sent off to Russia. The "name calling, insults, and biased statements" seem to go both ways.

That is what makes this thread so interesting. There really is an attack pack mentality that goes on through here. She was perceived as a threat and people are going to amazingly lengths to bash her - including demands and letters to the publisher. Of course, this is all done with the most noble of intentions (protecting the poor, unknowing vacationer), but it sure feels like there's a lot more going on here than fact checking.

To me, sadly, this is more a comment on the shape of "Disney fans" than it is on the alleged journalistic shortcomings of some writer.

You're more than welcome to sit back quietly when you see an inaccuracy. Some of us, however, feel differently and that doesn't make us wrong. I'm personally growing weary with the mentality that we should "shut up and suck it up." Why are we not allowed to voice our opinions? What is so wrong with that? And since when is emailing a publisher about inaccuracies considered bashing someone? Since when has the idea of journalistic accountability become something to fear and stay away from?

Your comments have been biased against us rather than listening to what we have to say. You keep bringing up "Disney fans" ignoring the fact that some of us have repeatedly pointed out that we don't care if they didn't like Disney. But the fact that this is a DISNEY based fan site and the article was about DISNEY, it is reasonable to expect that DISNEY fans will respond to the inaccuracies in the article. And since it's a discussion board, we have chosen to discuss it. Unfortunately, now we're being put down for that, and yet we're the ones being accused of bashing.

 

[The Big Daddy]

That is what makes this thread so interesting. There really is an attack pack mentality that goes on through here. She was perceived as a threat and people are going to amazingly lengths to bash her - including demands and letters to the publisher. Of course, this is all done with the most noble of intentions (protecting the poor, unknowing vacationer), but it sure feels like there's a lot more going on here than fact checking.

I think that was my main problem with this thread. People seemed to be taking glee in attacking this woman and emailing the publisher. It was like a holy crusade for some. I don't have a problem with people emailing the publisher and stating the facts are wrong, but when you start making it personal and telling the publisher that the writer is biased against Disney, well you lose your credibility. It sounds like whining and I'm sure the publisher just rolled their eyes. I think if just the inaccurate facts had been pointed out it might have been received better.

I don't know about you - but 13 pages seems to be go way beyond "pointing out inaccuracies". And if you would look at the name calling, insults and biased statements that I culled from just two pages of this thread, that's a little more than finger pointing as well.

Again I agree. To the people who called me a troll, I guess I missed the days when you signed up as a new user and you were automatically granted 1,000 posts on your profile so it didn't look like you were new. I've been coming to the boards off and on for 8 or 9 years, usually laughing with people's stories and occasionally being irritated with some of the abusive posts. I guarantee you there are more lurkers than posters.

And to the person that said they had a "run in" with me on another thread, you must be referring to the thread about running into "those" kind of parents where I posted, not even in response to a post of yours, that I felt people should mind their own business about how others raise their kids. And of course you responded about how screaming kids (screaming kids at Disneyworld? No way!) infringed upon your rights somehow. I didn't even respond to you! So to throw it out there like we had some sort of "throw down in the prison yard" is ridiculous. I don't appreciate the constant "I gotta be right attitude and get the last word" and misrepresentation of the facts of the other thread. There are trolls and there are drama queens. I guess I'd rather be the troll.

And Grimley1968, I hope we can agree to disagree. I don't know you and don't have a problem with you. I know things got heated but I don't feel the same level of personal attack from you as I have from someone else. It's just differing opinions. You have yours and I have mine.

 

[mking624]

Which is irrelevent to the article.

Actually I believe it's quite relevant. When you complain about the cost of a one day ticket to WDW and then recommend purchasing one day tickets to another Orlando theme park while failing to mention those prices, you give the implication that the other parks are cheaper, when they are indeed comparable. She also complains about the "adult" age at WDW when UO & SeaWorld are exactly the same, but she omits that as well. For a family deciding what is the best monetary value (which the obviously are since they are working on a budget), it's not the best help to complain about the price of one yet recommend something that costs just about the same but not telling them that. Instead, tell them both and let them decide if they want to opt for the one day WDW ticket or the one day UO or SW ticket...or even all three.

 

[The Big Daddy]

I'm personally growing weary with the mentality that we should "shut up and suck it up." Why are we not allowed to voice our opinions? What is so wrong with that?

And since it's a discussion board, we have chosen to discuss it. Unfortunately, now we're being put down for that, and yet we're the ones being accused of bashing.

"The Big Daddy", it's become quite clear that you're adamantly against any form of accountability and against well seasoned travelers from trying to help provide the correct information so that other travelers actually know the facts...and it's become quite clear that you have no interest in listening to any form of reason. You've made up your mind that apparently her words are "good advice" in spite of much of it being downright wrong, so there's no point in continuing to argue with you. I will say, though, that if you think that a hot dog price was the only thing she got wrong, you're obviously not well aware of WDW yourself.

As for me, I'll happily continue this discussion without feeding the troll. I suggest others do the same since it's plainly obvious he is more interested in controversy and debate (and not just in this thread, but others as well) then he is actually discussing things.

Funny but it seems you put me down for trying to particiapte in this discussion and for voicing my opinions.

 

[mking624]

Again I agree. To the people who called me a troll, I guess I missed the days when you signed up as a new user and you were automatically granted 1,000 posts on your profile so it didn't look like you were new. I've been coming to the boards off and on for 8 or 9 years, usually laughing with people's stories and occasionally being irritated with some of the abusive posts. I guarantee you there are more lurkers than posters.

Everyone started as a newbie at some point, but most people don't join a board and only participate in controversial threads and start putting people down. In the internet world, most people view that as a troll. With your internet experience, I'm sure you know that.

And to the person that said they had a "run in" with me on another thread, you must be referring to the thread about running into "those" kind of parents where I posted, not even in response to a post of yours, that I felt people should mind their own business about how others raise their kids. And of course you responded about how screaming kids (screaming kids at Disneyworld? No way!) infringed upon your rights somehow. I didn't even respond to you! So to throw it out there like we had some sort of "throw down in the prison yard" is ridiculous. I don't appreciate the constant "I gotta be right attitude and get the last word" and misrepresentation of the facts of the other thread. There are trolls and there are drama queens. I guess I'd rather be the troll.

I *never* said I had a run in with you (n fact I never even said that I had responded to a post of yours), perhaps it's best if you reread what I said. I did say this was not the first thread you've posted in this manner. You're the only one who keeps bringing up a "run in." But apparently this was deserving of me being sent to a foreign country. When I responded to you in that particular thread, I did so respectfully. I'm not the one misrepresenting facts here, nor am I the one who feels the need to brood over it. And I guess it's not a personal attack to you when you call my views narrow just because you don't agree with them and then recommend having me go to Russia. I didn't realize that was considered civil and polite conversation. My mistake.

 

[mking624]

Funny but it seems you put me down for trying to particiapte in this discussion and for voicing my opinions.

And you have not?

ETA: Honestly Big Daddy, I'm really not interested in some fighting match with you. I'm interested in a discussion. I have no problems with people who don't have the same viewpoint on things...I participate in threads all the time and I still come out of them happily chatting in another thread with the same people I previously disagreed with. My intention here is not to cause dissension but admittedly I am frustrated with this constant putting down especially just for pointing out inaccuracies. So let bygones be bygones and lets continue discussing.

 

[WillCAD]

I'm sorry, I just don't see where the errors are. Does a hotdog meal not cost $7? Are there not cheaper options for quick service meals then Disney itself? Are there not better food options at any price then Disney?

Are off site hotels not less expensive, particularly the condos/suites? Would Sea World not perhaps be better for young children then Epcot?

The original asker of the question was looking for an opinion. They got one.

The write placed a Value, her perceived value on every aspect of a Disney vacation and gave advice based on that value. That's what someone asked to give an opinion does. The fact that a 10 day ticket may be cheaper in the long run doesn't matter if the opinionater sees no value in spending 10 days at WDW.

Are you even reading the posts, or are you just ignoring those that you can't make a dent in?

Let me repeat all the errors by quoting one of my previous posts:

Okay, okay, I'll admit that my use of the term "criminally negligent," which seems to have struck a major chord with you, was inacurate and inappropriate. But then you'll have to admit that:

"with theme park hot dog meals costing a whopping $7 and a one-day entry ticket at Disney World soaring to $71 per adult (defined as age 10 and above—tell that to the DMV)."

is completely misleading, because she completely fails to mention that per day prices drop sharply as you buy longer tickets, and since there are 4 theme parks, you need a minimum of 4 days to see them all.

And:

"They're cinderblock motels, packed with loud school groups for much of the year, that are located farther from the Disney attractions than most of the (often nicer) motels that are clustered around the gates of Disney World."

Is completely WRONG - the Disney Value resorts are demonstrably NOT "packed with loud school groups for much of the year," though some of them do have tour groups or PW or cheer groups at SOME times.

And I dare you to find me ANY non-Disney hotel (or motel), other than those on Hotel Plaza Blvd or the Swan & Dolphin, that is closer to the parks than Pop or the All-Stars.

"Epcot won't have enough to interest your younger kids."

Horse-hockey. Epcot has all sorts of kid-friendly stuff, although admittedly it's not all princesses and muppets and Mr. Sanderz. Some kids don't like Epcot, but some do; to issue such a blanket statement, dismissing the entire park out of hand, is ridiculous to anyone who has been to Epcot.

"Be wary of "upgrading" your passes, as that's not the best value"

Say what? Since when is upgrading your pass from 4 days to 5, getting another full day at a theme park for $3 not the best value!? (NOTE: 4-day base ticket $225.78, 5-day base ticket $228.98, difference $3.20).

"You probably won't get to the water park,"

Says who? Plenty of folks with younger kids hit the water parks.

" and Disney's eating plan is inconvenient (only certain properties are included, some of which require reservations)."

Again, simply WRONG. The Dining Plan includes almost every restaurant and eatery on WDW property (some require two credits instead of one), and ALL of them require reservations, unless you want to wait a long time as a walk-up.

"Then, do one day at SeaWorld (an unmissable, exuberantly fun and educational Orlando attraction)"

SeaWorld is unmissable and exhuberantly fun for a 5-year old and a 2-year old, but Epcot has nothing to interest them? Well, that's a matter of opinion, but my opinion is that this a whacked opinion.

" and, if your older one's into action heroes, one day at Universal Studios."

Er, the action heroes are not at Universal Studios, they are next door at Islands of Adventure.

Now, as far as the whole on-site vs. off-site thing, I've never been shy about staying off-site when I get better bargains than on-site (which, unfortunately, is quite often). But I'll be on-site for MouseFest, staying at the fabulous All-Star Cinderblock Movies resort for $59 a night.

And renting a car - I'm all over that. I always rent a car at WDW; in my 17 years of visiting, I've only done two trips without wheels and hated every minute of it.

Visiting Universal or SeaWorld? One of my number-one reccomendations to anyone planning a trip to Orlando is that the world doesn't end at the Disney property line - get the heck out and try other stuff, because there's plenty of great stuff out there that you'll miss if you limit yourself to WDW.

So no, I don't disagree with everything she wrote, but the stuff she got wrong completely destroys her credibility as a professional journalist in my eyes.

By the way - ARE you actually Pauline's Big Daddy, Aurthur Frommer? Cause if you are, man, I really dug your appearance in "Eurotrip." Way cool, bro!

 

[Peter Pirate 2]

You're more than welcome to sit back quietly when you see an inaccuracy. Some of us, however, feel differently and that doesn't make us wrong. I'm personally growing weary with the mentality that we should "shut up and suck it up." Why are we not allowed to voice our opinions? What is so wrong with that? And since when is emailing a publisher about inaccuracies considered bashing someone? Since when has the idea of journalistic accountability become something to fear and stay away from?

This is a fine attitude. Seriously. Do you spend lots of time trying to correct journalistic injustices that are heaved upon us? Or is it just Disney issues? Because if you're an active advocate for journalistic reform then this argument is put into a whole different perspective and you deserve kudos for fighting the fight ... But if you're simply a Disney fan who is incensed over a not so great review by a travel writer and this is really your only foray into the fight against bad journalisim then I certainly see Mr. Voices POV as this seems like a rather trivial issue (in the big picture) to wad the panties so tightly and circle the wagons...

 

[raidermatt]

I'm not seeing much in the way of inaccuracies in the article. Could somebody please briefly bullet point them here?

 

[mking624]

Oh the hot dog meal thing reminded me...
I checked AllEars site and did a menu check for Casey's Corner....here's what's listed:
Grand Slam All Beef 1/4 lb. Hot Dog - served with apple slaw or french fries $5.79

I'm having trouble accessing other areas of the site right now (it was moving really slow for me), are there other counter service locations that charge more for it?

 

[raidermatt]

Ok, I see WildCad's list, but that is nothing but differences of opinion. Not inaccuracies. Where are the incorrect facts?

 

[mking624]

This is a fine attitude. Seriously. Do you spend lots of time trying to correct journalistic injustices that are heaved upon us? Or is it just Disney issues? Because if you're an active advocate for journalistic reform then this argument is put into a whole different perspective and you deserve kudos for fighting the fight ... But if you're simply a Disney fan who is incensed over a not so great review by a travel writer and this is really your only foray into the fight against bad journalisim then I certainly see Mr. Voices POV as this seems like a rather trivial issue (in the big picture) to wad the panties so tightly and circle the wagons...

When an article piques my interest, Disney or not, I will do my best to research the information. I don't like to take things at face value...I want to make sure that what I'm reading is accurate. I do it even when taking my pets to the vet, I do my "homework" to make sure that the info I'm being given by my vet is correct (and I learned this the hard way with the first vet we had). Even if I wasn't like that, I find nothing wrong with a Disney fan writing in about Disney.

 

[raidermatt]

Oh the hot dog meal thing reminded me...
I checked AllEars site and did a menu check for Casey's Corner....here's what's listed:
Grand Slam All Beef 1/4 lb. Hot Dog - served with apple slaw or french fries $5.79

I'm having trouble accessing other areas of the site right now (it was moving really slow for me), are there other counter service locations that charge more for it?

Since the statement was about a hot dog meal, wouldn't we include the price of a drink? I know if somebody who had never been to WDW asked me what a hot dog meal cost, I wouldn't assume they wouldn't want a soda or something.

Added in Edit: The cheapest beverage at Casey's is a small bottle of water for $1.25, which would bring the meal cost to $7.04.

I can't remember, does that include tax?

 

[YoHo]

Are you even reading the posts, or are you just ignoring those that you can't make a dent in?

Let me repeat all the errors by quoting one of my previous posts:

Fine, We'll do it your way

Okay, okay, I'll admit that my use of the term "criminally negligent," which seems to have struck a major chord with you, was inacurate and inappropriate. But then you'll have to admit that:

"with theme park hot dog meals costing a whopping $7 and a one-day entry ticket at Disney World soaring to $71 per adult (defined as age 10 and above—tell that to the DMV)."

is completely misleading, because she completely fails to mention that per day prices drop sharply as you buy longer tickets, and since there are 4 theme parks, you need a minimum of 4 days to see them all.

It's not misleading at all. A hot dog meal does cost $7 (or, it does at DL, Hotdog, Chips, no soda) and a single day ticket is $71.
LAter on in the article when she actually discusses purchasing tickets, she recommends a 3 day pass. I suppose you could claim that singling out WDW's price is misleading, but really, come on reading intentional bias into it is a bit much.

And I'm sorry, but #1 she specifically recommends not seeing all the parks, so how many days you need to see all of them is completely irrelevent.
Further, MGM and AK are both largely considered half day parks. A problem that is only accentuated by the age of the children involved. She recommends 2 days for MK and 1 for AK. That sounds perfectly fine.

And:

"They're cinderblock motels, packed with loud school groups for much of the year, that are located farther from the Disney attractions than most of the (often nicer) motels that are clustered around the gates of Disney World."

Is completely WRONG - the Disney Value resorts are demonstrably NOT "packed with loud school groups for much of the year," though some of them do have tour groups or PW or cheer groups at SOME times.

And yet they are low rent, cheap and unthemed Motels. A little Hyperbole never hurt anyone....except for that one time, but she deserved it.

And I dare you to find me ANY non-Disney hotel (or motel), other than those on Hotel Plaza Blvd or the Swan & Dolphin, that is closer to the parks than Pop or the All-Stars.

Perhaps not physically, but they would have the advantage of not using the Disney branded Cattle cars err, busses. In some cases it is certainly faster then trying to get places from the Values.
And of course, none of this addresses her main point which is the true value in improved accommodations per dollar spent offsite.

AND, she goes out of her way to mention the camp ground and even to sing it's praises. Perhaps you missed that. The campground is demonstratively more Disney then the Values.

"Epcot won't have enough to interest your younger kids."

Horse-hockey. Epcot has all sorts of kid-friendly stuff, although admittedly it's not all princesses and muppets and Mr. Sanderz. Some kids don't like Epcot, but some do; to issue such a blanket statement, dismissing the entire park out of hand, is ridiculous to anyone who has been to Epcot.

This is her opinion and your opinion. this isn't an inaccuracy. Get over it.

"Be wary of "upgrading" your passes, as that's not the best value"

Say what? Since when is upgrading your pass from 4 days to 5, getting another full day at a theme park for $3 not the best value!? (NOTE: 4-day base ticket $225.78, 5-day base ticket $228.98, difference $3.20).

because she's recommending only spending 3 days at WDW so a 5th day is not a good value at any price.

"You probably won't get to the water park,"

Says who? Plenty of folks with younger kids hit the water parks.

Says her the experienced travel writer and mother of young children. Again, this is an opinion and she has a right to it. It isn't in any conceivable way an inaccuracy.

" and Disney's eating plan is inconvenient (only certain properties are included, some of which require reservations)."

Again, simply WRONG. The Dining Plan includes almost every restaurant and eatery on WDW property (some require two credits instead of one), and ALL of them require reservations, unless you want to wait a long time as a walk-up.

She is in this case pretty wrong, but in fact I think she's erring on the side of being too nice. The DIsney Dinning Plan has ruined the restaurants and made it nearly impossible to get a table unless you call months in advance. Neither of these things used to be true. The money saved is offset by the time needed to plan the vacation (something hard to do with young children) and the reduction in quality of the food. And that's not to say anything of the difficulty of actually using all your credits, especially given the small children involved.
Have you not read the many threads on bilking the system on this very site?
Value can be measured as time wasted on the phone at 7am 6 months before the vacation too.

"Then, do one day at SeaWorld (an unmissable, exuberantly fun and educational Orlando attraction)"

SeaWorld is unmissable and exhuberantly fun for a 5-year old and a 2-year old, but Epcot has nothing to interest them? Well, that's a matter of opinion, but my opinion is that this a whacked opinion.

Well, you've said itself and made yourself look bad in the process. This is an opinion. There's no facts to be erroneous.

" and, if your older one's into action heroes, one day at Universal Studios."

Er, the action heroes are not at Universal Studios, they are next door at Islands of Adventure.

And most Americans talk about going to Walt Disney World and Epcot too. She probably meant to imply both parks.