Friend in financial trouble

I have a friend who is a stay at home mom with a husband who makes a lot of money, close to 300k. They owe 100k more on their home then what they paid for it because they had to use equity in house to pay off credit card debt. They live paycheck to paycheck and use bonus money each year to payoff credit cards. I can't even count the times I worked out a budget for her to try to get the spending under control. I would try to help because she would ask for my help. She never followed a single budget that we worked on together because deep down she just didn't want to change. If she really took a hard look at where she was spending money it would mean she would KNOW where she was over spending and she would HAVE to change. Life for her is much more fun with her head buried in the sand. I don't try to help anymore, I don't even discuss money with her. She likes to throw money around and act as if she has a well that will never run dry. I like to budget and plan. I sleep well at night!
 
I do not feel the folks who make bad choices are completely devoid of responsibility and I also do not assume they lack remorse; I certainly do not feel it's quite cut & dry either. I feel this behavior is part of the spectrum of what we now recognize to be behavioral disorders that trigger addiction to things like alcoholism and gambling. Sure most people like a little here & there but is a definite difference in people who will self destruct because they can't say no. Like with Alcohol some individuals are hardwired to be able to abstain and some people simply are not.. sad thing is you don't know who you are until you give it a try and for some one sip later is already too late. There are laws to protect us from addictive stuff but some laws, especially in the financial world, have been repealed and many just ignored or if not ignored simply not enforced due to complexity and lack of public awareness (credit swaps that destroyed many school districts) and manpower. Most of the dangerous stuff like alcohol, gambling and such are limited to to those over 21, when people are presumably better able to navigate the pitfalls; hard core addictive substances are usually outright outlawed and there are lots of support groups for victims of the dealers who exploit them. Things like food & money, well they are always there because they are necessary but even then we have the FDA to protect us with food. Think about how Coco cola used to contain actual cocaine, it's crazy but how equipped are people to deal with it if that had been allowed to be continually dumped into our lives? I sort of think of the financial situation to be just as addictive & the exploiters as dealers. Sure, now it's easy to say, 'Just don't drink from the cup,' but hind-site is always 20/20 - NOW we all know where the rabbit hole leads and standing outside the hole it's easy to point down and say its the fault of the person who fell in, but I don't think it helps. Pointing fingers makes it seem as if this is a case by case individual person problem & I just reject that because it takes the focus away from what is wrong in the process & what is wrong is not the free market system, what is wrong is allowing financial drug dealers to deal while remaining untouchable to usury laws. I clearly remember being sold on credit when I was in college & there was virtually no info on the practice; my applications certainly lacked the BLACK BOX warning they deserved. If you didn't come from a family that cautioned you then you had no idea & I did not have that; I only knew because I studied it but most people were completely exploited & lulled by the notion that banks wouldn't hurt themselves so they wouldn't give it to me if it was a bad idea. Too big to fail means they weren't worried AT ALL & we were sooooo very very wrong... if only we knew then what the banks knew :l Bankruptcy laws were set up so that the banks would get slammed by losses if they made bad choices exploiting people, now that people can't file bankruptcy and banks can declare that money owed them as ongoing assets even if they KNOW it's bad debt & they will never see a dime, they have ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to abstain from making bad extensions of credit. Check out some of the Financial type movies and think about how people's day to day thinking was exploited, it's vile. After the Depression laws were painstakingly laid out to prevent exploitation (including bankruptcy laws) but the siren call was strong and as my grandmothers generation aged out the memories faded & we forgot so when the 70's hit the wolves were at the door with offers of paradise outside & so many regular people stepped outside.... today they are the wolves mercy and the wolves laugh all day long. I think its tempting to think that wealth follows intelligence so if a family is making $200 K or up they should know better but that's not how it always works. Yes, most of the time the more you have the more you save but this is not necessarily true when wealth/disposable income via instant access of pretty brightly colors credit cards minus the black box warning of interest rates and other negative impacts follows you around in your wallet 24/7. It would be different if every card had a microchip that would tell the holder the true cost of using a credit card for a purchase that would calculate andshow the buyer the extrapolated price extended over 5-10 years. For ex, if the cards were forced to display the 'TRUE COST' of that sale item. Now THAT would have a huge impact on American spending habits but I won't hold my breath.

Check this out, it explains the drive fairly well although it does not take into account the variable of credit which would cause so many variances in disposable income that it would likely demand a new graph sit on top of every single point along the line because that starting point drastically influences a persons behaviors... still it's a useful starting point.

ttp://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/marginalpropensitytoconsume.asp

There is a real & dangerous psychological push towards spending which is ingrained in all of us, some more so than others & that drive will be exploited.

Not saying I there is zero responsibility with the over spender, just saying it's not quite as simple as laying all the blame at their feet either.
 
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I do not feel the folks who make bad choices are completely devoid of responsibility and I also do not assume they lack remorse; I certainly do not feel it's quite cut & dry either. I feel this behavior is part of the spectrum of what we not recognize to be behavioral disorders that trigger addiction to things like alcoholism and gambling. Sure most people like a little here & there but is a definite difference in people who will self destruct because they can't say no. Like with Alcohol some individuals are hardwired to be able to abstain and some people simply are not.. sad thing is you don't know who you are until you give it a try and for some one sip later is already too late. There are laws to protect us from addictive stuff but some laws, especially in the financial world, have been repealed and many just ignored or if not ignored simply not enforced due to complexity and lack of awareness and manpower. Most of the dangerous stuff like alcohol, gambling and such are limited to to those over 21, when people are presumably better able to navigate the pitfalls; hard core addictive substances are usually outright outlawed and there are lots of support groups for victims of the dealers who exploit them. Things like food & money, well they are always there because they are necessary but even then we have the FDA to protect us with food. Think about how Coco cola used to contain actual cocaine, it's crazy but how equipped are people to deal with it if that had been allowed to be continually dumped into our lives? I sort of think of the financial situation to be just as addictive & the exploiters as dealers. Sure, now it's easy to say, 'Just don't drink from the cup,' but hind-site is always 20/20 - NOW we all know where the rabbit hole leads and standing outside the hole it's easy to point down and say its the fault of the person who fell in, but I don't think it helps. Pointing fingers makes it seem as if this is a case by case individual person problem & I just reject that because it takes the focus away from what is wrong in the process & what is wrong is not the free market system, what is wrong is allowing financial drug dealers to deal while remaining untouchable to usury laws. I clearly remember being sold on credit when I was in college & there was virtually no info on the practice; my applications certainly lacked the BLACK BOX warning they deserved. If you didn't come from a family that cautioned you then you had no idea & I did not have that; I only knew because I studied it but most people were completely exploited & lulled by the notion that banks wouldn't hurt themselves so they wouldn't give it to me if it was a bad idea. Too big to fail means they weren't worried AT ALL & we were sooooo very very wrong... if only we knew then what the banks knew :l Bankruptcy laws were set up so that the banks would get slammed by losses if they made bad choices exploiting people, now that people can't file bankruptcy and banks can declare that money owed them as ongoing assets even if they KNOW it's bad debt & they will never see a dime, they have ABSOLUTELY ZERO reason to abstain from making bad extensions of credit. Check out some of the Financial type movies and think about how people's day to day thinking was exploited, it's vile. After the Depression laws were painstakingly laid out to prevent exploitation (including bankruptcy laws) but the siren call was strong and as my grandmothers generation aged out the memories faded & we forgot so when the 70's hit the wolves were at the door with offers of paradise outside & so many regular people stepped outside.... today they are the wolves mercy and the wolves laugh all day long. I think its tempting to think that wealth follows intelligence so if a family is making $200 K or up they should know better but that's not how it always works. Yes, most of the time the more you have the more you save but this is not necessarily true when wealth/disposable income via instant access of pretty brightly colors credit cards minus the black box warning of interest rates and other negative impacts follows you around in your wallet 24/7. It would be different if every card had a microchip that would tell the holder the true cost of using a credit card for a purchase that would calculate ahd show the buyer the extrapolated price extended over 5-10 years. For ex, if the cards were forced to display the 'TRUE COST' of that sale item.

Check this out, it explains the drive fairly well although it does not take into account the variable of credit which would cause so many variances in disposable income that it would likely demand a new graph sit on top of every single point along the line because that starting point drastically influences a persons behaviors... still it's a useful starting point.

ttp://www.investopedia.com/terms/m/marginalpropensitytoconsume.asp

There is a real & dangerous psychological push towards spending which is ingrained in all of us, some more so than others & that drive will be exploited.

Not saying I there is zero responsibility with the over spender, just saying it's not quite as simple as laying all the blame at their feet either.
Longest paragraph I've ever seen on the disboards!
 
Longest paragraph I've ever seen on the disboards!

Rotfl, at least I used punctuation I could've made it a big run on sentence... Maybe that would've made it less boring to all the teachers on here who love to get out the red pens.... Tempting:banana:

I don't mean to run on but I almost never talk about the stuff with the people around me because everybody hates it, economics is complicated and tedious and usually most people's least favorite topic.

As a stay at home mom in the suburbs 99% of he conversations I have on a day-to-day basis are about children & gardening
 
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Story of my life - wanna talk about gardening?:hippie:No worries, this topic is boring beyond belief to most

If you are interested just check out the link at the bottom
 
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I have a friend who is a stay at home mom with a husband who makes a lot of money, close to 300k. They owe 100k more on their home then what they paid for it because they had to use equity in house to pay off credit card debt. They live paycheck to paycheck and use bonus money each year to payoff credit cards. I can't even count the times I worked out a budget for her to try to get the spending under control. I would try to help because she would ask for my help. She never followed a single budget that we worked on together because deep down she just didn't want to change. If she really took a hard look at where she was spending money it would mean she would KNOW where she was over spending and she would HAVE to change. Life for her is much more fun with her head buried in the sand. I don't try to help anymore, I don't even discuss money with her. She likes to throw money around and act as if she has a well that will never run dry. I like to budget and plan. I sleep well at night!

Those are the people who drive me nuts when its time to send the kids to college and they discover that grants and scholarships do not fall from the sky for most kids with well off parents - and of course, they've been raising their kids with the expectation that affordability isn't an issue.
 
I find it really interesting, but I think you are quite wrong about how much control the government has over this sort of thing.

Most smokers start smoking long before its legal for them to buy cigarettes. High school kids find it easy to get drunk. And even my daughter's straight as an arrow friends know who to talk to to buy weed.

The FDA does very little to regulate food, other than to try and make sure you won't get poisoned immediately. If you want to live off a diet of Coke and Twinkies, they can't stop you. There isn't cocaine in the Coke any longer, but there isn't anything GOOD for you in it - its empty calories.

Gambling issues can start with a pack of Pokemon cards.

And, as the sister of someone in recovery - you control how much of their garbage you can put up with, and you don't make excuses for them or enable them.

Its on a spectrum of behavioral disorders. That is a reason, not an excuse. And until people who overspend see it as a reason and not an excuse, they won't address it.
 
What stuck out to me in the original post was all the things that are considered "normal" expenses now: kids activities, new clothes, eating out, car payments, etc. If you don't have money, these are luxuries. They are for us because we are a one-income family. My kids don't play sports because we can't afford the absolutely ridiculous costs; we don't eat out as a family but once a week and we use coupons; I buy the kids' clothes at consignment shops (or new when the sale price is equal to or less than the consignment shop prices); etc etc etc. We don't have car payments--my van is going on 10 years old. We don't go to the movies or buy video games or go to the salon of any kind or buy much of anything we don't absolutely need--and I scrutinize every dollar we spend. But we are happy and healthy and can pay our bills. It's been tough at times and we've had to ask for help with medical bills; but I've made peace with asking because we are doing everything we can to be responsible. But if one more of my friends complains about how poor they are while taking selfies at the hair salon or planning their Disney vacation...
Anyway, my point is that it's entirely possible to buy very little and be happy or to sell stuff you can't afford anymore, even though few people are willing to try. Now, I might be a little happier if I could go get a $100 hair cut and a mani/pedi, but I chose this life so I'm good.
 
What stuck out to me in the original post was all the things that are considered "normal" expenses now: kids activities, new clothes, eating out, car payments, etc. If you don't have money, these are luxuries. They are for us because we are a one-income family. My kids don't play sports because we can't afford the absolutely ridiculous costs; we don't eat out as a family but once a week and we use coupons; I buy the kids' clothes at consignment shops (or new when the sale price is equal to or less than the consignment shop prices); etc etc etc. We don't have car payments--my van is going on 10 years old. We don't go to the movies or buy video games or go to the salon of any kind or buy much of anything we don't absolutely need--and I scrutinize every dollar we spend. But we are happy and healthy and can pay our bills. It's been tough at times and we've had to ask for help with medical bills; but I've made peace with asking because we are doing everything we can to be responsible. But if one more of my friends complains about how poor they are while taking selfies at the hair salon or planning their Disney vacation...
Anyway, my point is that it's entirely possible to buy very little and be happy or to sell stuff you can't afford anymore, even though few people are willing to try. Now, I might be a little happier if I could go get a $100 hair cut and a mani/pedi, but I chose this life so I'm good.

I used to spend a $150 at the salon on my hair and I didn't look any better than I do when I leave Hair Cuttery or Great Clips after spending $20. I can still afford that $150 - it wasn't a budget thing. It just didn't make me happier. Now a mani/pedi has a different happiness level.....
 
I find it really interesting, but I think you are quite wrong about how much control the government has over this sort of thing.

Most smokers start smoking long before its legal for them to buy cigarettes. High school kids find it easy to get drunk. And even my daughter's straight as an arrow friends know who to talk to to buy weed.

The FDA does very little to regulate food, other than to try and make sure you won't get poisoned immediately. If you want to live off a diet of Coke and Twinkies, they can't stop you. There isn't cocaine in the Coke any longer, but there isn't anything GOOD for you in it - its empty calories.

Gambling issues can start with a pack of Pokemon cards.

And, as the sister of someone in recovery - you control how much of their garbage you can put up with, and you don't
I hear you and of course there is a way around everything for scofflaws but at least the risks are well known. I think food labeling is a big deal, thank goodness for the FDA doing that and keeping drugs out of my food- I can't imagine was companies would do to ensure long shelf life. I think there has been a huge reduction in smoking since the facts got out. Underage drinking, well it's illegal so that at least sends a "this is not a hot idea" message, same goes for most dangerous substances.

I totally get what you were saying looking at it now but what it looks like now is after the derailment that happened during deregulation.

Before the advent of credit cards the government actually had a very firm grip on the economy. Policy was supposed to prevent what we have now & it was supposed to go like this:

Money supply was regulated by physical $ printed by the Feds in concert with loans that went through banks. FDIC banks (and nobody went anywhere else because they all could remember the banks closing) got their status by adhering to strict regulations governing liquidity vs outstanding loans. The rate the participating banks charge each other to keep up with Fed Reserve liquidity demands is the fed funds rate or the rate we watch for in the news. If the rates went up money supply in loans got more expensive so demand eased & money supply shrank so inflation was curbed. If the rates went down money supply opened up & growth puffed via multiplier effect (should be happening but isn't and it's a relatively simple reason). The whole mechanism was all a carefully choreographed dance between growth & inflation. Then credit cards happened and loan sharks in Gucci shoes, Armani suits and Ray Bans showed up and we trusted them so now they run the show so here we are with negative interest rates because things won't move. It's a mess, a big 'wasn't supposed to happen' mess

It would be nice to just blame it on the individual but my studies say that would be ignoring the bigger picture
 
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I understand that - I have a financial degree and study economic history. But before credit cards there were plenty of other ways to get into debt. Store cards or credit, the company store or company loans (which put you into functional indentured servitude). The second or third mortgage. (Have you read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle"?). This isn't new - and its actually an improvement on what came before - in my opinion. And it still doesn't excuse anyone with a six figure income and six figures in credit card debt - unless they've perhaps had some huge medical emergency, don't have disability insurance - and that is a different kind of financially irresponsible. Could we put a little more regulation in place - sure - I'd like to see an interest rate cap for one - which would likely heavily curtail the payday loan business. But like a lot of what we would like to control - you have to be careful in the amount of regulation you put in place to keep it from going underground.

There have been people who fall victim to debt since long before Jesus threw the moneylenders out of the temple. (And He didn't have an issue with the moneylenders existing - they were necessary - just the temple wasn't the appropriate place to do business).
 
What stuck out to me in the original post was all the things that are considered "normal" expenses now: kids activities, new clothes, eating out, car payments, etc. If you don't have money, these are luxuries. They are for us because we are a one-income family. My kids don't play sports because we can't afford the absolutely ridiculous costs; we don't eat out as a family but once a week and we use coupons; I buy the kids' clothes at consignment shops (or new when the sale price is equal to or less than the consignment shop prices); etc etc etc. We don't have car payments--my van is going on 10 years old. We don't go to the movies or buy video games or go to the salon of any kind or buy much of anything we don't absolutely need--and I scrutinize every dollar we spend. But we are happy and healthy and can pay our bills. It's been tough at times and we've had to ask for help with medical bills; but I've made peace with asking because we are doing everything we can to be responsible. But if one more of my friends complains about how poor they are while taking selfies at the hair salon or planning their Disney vacation...
Anyway, my point is that it's entirely possible to buy very little and be happy or to sell stuff you can't afford anymore, even though few people are willing to try. Now, I might be a little happier if I could go get a $100 hair cut and a mani/pedi, but I chose this life so I'm good.

What stands out to me in this post is that you are one income and will ask someone to pay your medical bills. Why not get a second job and pay them yourself? My point is not that what you are doing is right or wrong, but we will judge others while justifying what we do as right. Some would say asking someone to pay for anything while only on one income when you could have 2 incomes even while budgeting is the same as what other frivolous spenders are doing.

We have definitely become a world of entitled people, but everyone has a tendency to justify what they do while condemning others.
 
It would be nice to just blame it on the individual but my studies say that would be ignoring the bigger picture

The regulations may have allowed it to happen - but no one forced anyone to spend so much that they end up in debt to their eyebrows. That's like saying it's the beer manufacturers' fault that there are alcoholics because there are no regulations in place to limit the amount of alcohol you buy.

I clearly remember being sold on credit when I was in college & there was virtually no info on the practice; my applications certainly lacked the BLACK BOX warning they deserved. If you didn't come from a family that cautioned you then you had no idea & I did not have that; I only knew because I studied it but most people were completely exploited & lulled by the notion that banks wouldn't hurt themselves so they wouldn't give it to me if it was a bad idea.

And I'm sorry, but this is a cop out. Yes, there were credit card companies all over my college campus handing out cards like candy (with a free shirt!) and I don't recall a conversation with my parents about them. But I was in college - meaning I had a brain and I could add and multiply (and no, I did not study finance). I understood that what goes on those cards had to be paid back at some point - with interest. And anyone who claims that they didn't know the money would have to be paid back didn't deserve to be in college.

So in the end, I don't really think people should be shamed for what happened to virtually all of generation x; I just hope the next generation, our kids, can learn from it & change things. As for me, I'm teaching my kids everything I know... Time will tell

I'm Generation X. Nothing happened to us. Plenty of us manage to not live beyond our means. And yes, emergencies happen and I don't shame those that end up in hard times and work to pull themselves out. But for a family that makes 6 figures to be in 6 figures of credit card debt, they have no one to blame but themselves. No one.
 
From the sound of things, the root of this family's problem is a case of keeping up with the Joneses, not medical disaster or loan sharking. Middle class wages, in real dollars, haven't kept up with the old middle class lifestyle a lot of us grew up with, but a lot of people are still trying to live like they are.

I think those of us who aren't in financial straits do play a small role in the financial struggles of those who are trying to keep up, there's a lot of overt judgment if you aren't conforming. My husband and I chose to live below our means and avoid conspicuous consumption, and the biggest surprise was how many of our friends would try to upsell us like an Applebees waiter trying to sell the special of the day, usually on things like electronics and household things. Relatives would be horrified that our kids would wear hand-me-downs, even though these same relatives dressed US in hand-me-downs when we were kids (sometimes clothes that had been through 6 people rather than just 1 or 2). Even other frugal friends will do things like constantly send me Craigslist links to things they think I'd like that I don't need.

My point is not that we're making people get into debt, only that being judgmental does have an effect (I guiltily bought Skechers for the kids today because someone gave me the look a couple times over Payless shoes, I'm hoping they really are better quality...). When I grew up, the older generation that really had money worked hard not to flaunt it, they kept their luxuries close to the vest and they were very sensitive to the possibility that friends and neighbors might be struggling. They certainly didn't have crazy birthday parties for kids, even if they could afford them. I think they knew what they were doing.
 
Op - you are a good friend to try to help, but if she does not really and truly want to change she won't. To get out of debt like that will take YEARS and a firm commitment from her, and her spouse and her kids, to go without some things for a long long time.

Since this was through years of overspending and not some sudden horrific crisis that put them in this bind I can confidently say this:
  • If they do follow through with a plan they will be tempted to fall off of it once they start seeing breathing room.
  • If miraculously they do stick to it, given comments she has made to you already (re: deserving and rewarding themselves), be prepared for a few jealous comments when over the next three, five, or more years they see you taking a vacation or buying a new car with your saved money. It will be a long time before they can do that and you may hear comments like, I wish WE could go to Disney..sigh...I wish WE could afford a new car...sigh....
Having been badly burned several times,:headache: I urge caution. I and others I know who have tried to help out friends or family in exactly the same situation (including giving money - which I WILL NOT do ever again) and worrying sick :sick: for them, once they saw the wiggle room in their budget they bought something insane (Boat :boat:, fancy car :car:, land for a vacation house :flower:- wish I was kidding). Not making enough money was NEVER the problem. These situations sound oh so similar to your friend's - they made plenty of money. The debt came from not living within their means - which was a LOT OF FUN for them until REALITY caught up with them. Again, once they had the breathing room they easily plunged right back into the wonderful FANTASY WORLD where money is in endless supply and tomorrow is too far in the future to worry about. :cloud9:

Offer plenty of encouragement but please, please be cautious about getting sucked in too deeply. My worry is for you and the long haul of this as she has made you her confidant on this. i have learned this the hard way: They do have to do this themselves and it actually needs to be hard and horrible and difficult to do or they will fall right back into the old ways again.
 
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Rotfl, at least I used punctuation I could've made it a big run on sentence... Maybe that would've made it less boring to all the teachers on here who love to get out the red pens.... Tempting:banana:

I don't mean to run on but I almost never talk about the stuff with the people around me because everybody hates it, economics is complicated and tedious and usually most people's least favorite topic.

As a stay at home mom in the suburbs 99% of he conversations I have on a day-to-day basis are about children & gardening
You can inbox me. I am obsessed with finance. :teeth: And as a stay at home mom most of my conversation is based around who hit who and potty training.
 
What stands out to me in this post is that you are one income and will ask someone to pay your medical bills. Why not get a second job and pay them yourself? My point is not that what you are doing is right or wrong, but we will judge others while justifying what we do as right. Some would say asking someone to pay for anything while only on one income when you could have 2 incomes even while budgeting is the same as what other frivolous spenders are doing.

We have definitely become a world of entitled people, but everyone has a tendency to justify what they do while condemning others.
My perception is precisely the same
 
The regulations may have allowed it to happen - but no one forced anyone to spend so much that they end up in debt to their eyebrows. That's like saying it's the beer manufacturers' fault that there are alcoholics because there are no regulations in place to limit the amount of alcohol you buy.



And I'm sorry, but this is a cop out. Yes, there were credit card companies all over my college campus handing out cards like candy (with a free shirt!) and I don't recall a conversation with my parents about them. But I was in college - meaning I had a brain and I could add and multiply (and no, I did not study finance). I understood that what goes on those cards had to be paid back at some point - with interest. And anyone who claims that they didn't know the money would have to be paid back didn't deserve to be in college.



I'm Generation X. Nothing happened to us. Plenty of us manage to not live beyond our means. And yes, emergencies happen and I don't shame those that end up in hard times and work to pull themselves out. But for a family that makes 6 figures to be in 6 figures of credit card debt, they have no one to blame but themselves. No one.

Ok, I get it
 







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