Four Day School Week

[princessbride6205]

I think the idea of a 4-day school and work week would be nice, but you'd have to get multiple school districts to go to this model. If only one district does it in an area, it would be a problem for playing sports games with other schools, less childcare options, etc. I know I work for an employer that would never allow me a flexible schedule. Also, if the school day was extended 8-4 or 8-4:30, I'd still need an hour of after-school care plus the full day off care. I don't expect school to be a daycare, but for our family, it would cost more. This type of schedule might work out and I'm not totally opposed to it, but I'd hate to see the school day get much longer.

For elementary I'm not sure the children would have as much learning time even though they are in the classroom longer. There is only so long they can be expected to sit.

I'd rather see the 4-day week extend the school year into the summer further instead of making up all the time with longer days. Maybe split the difference - an extra 30 minutes each day plus however many extra days into June or start of July.

 

[mhsjax]

The attitude of "They can't do that, what would I do about watching the kids on Friday" makes it sound like parents 'expect' the schools to provide a means of superivising their children = free daycare.

Again I'll say the same thing: IF the 4 day school week became common, things would shift, employers would become more flexible because employees would demand it. Many employers would be open to people switching to a 4 day 10 hour a day schedule...my husband's clients already have a lot of people working that way (it's good for morale and productivity for them), that would probably increase for many, but not all businesses.

If there is no part time care available, and a lot of parents start looking for it, it WILL become more available (probably starting, like I stated before, with the YMCA or churches) because where a demand grows, entrepreneurs see an opportunity to provide a service. One of the posters in this thread stated that she would consider opening a one day a week home daycare program in her home if this sort of situation happened in her home town. She wouldn't be the only one to see an opportunity. There are a lot of out of work people in this country right now....if they saw an opportunity to start a business running this sort of business, wouldn't it be a win win for them and for the parents who needed help supervising their children?

Besides that, maybe the schools wouldn't add time onto each day, maybe they would make the school year longer, take some of those 36 Fridays, shorten the summer break and go 4 days a week for some extra weeks...that would make it EASIER for working parents...they wouldn't have to figure out who is going to watch their kids for all those weeks of summer vacation (and we might not have as much of that loss of skills that happens over the summer).

Again, we aren't free by any means. So no this doesn't equal that. How can a parent that pays for daycare at the school, and it isn't cheap, call it free daycare.

FWIW, I don't work, I have never used after school care, so really this isn't a problem for me, but I understand where it would be. Churches around here already have enough going on, and real estate where I am is horribly expensive, so no I don't think your day care popping up would just happen.

 

[Praying Colonel]

When I rule the world, we'll have a constantly rotating 4-on/3-off work/school schedule.

Mon-Thurs: Work/school
Fri-Mon: Off
Tues-Fri: Work/school
Sat-Mon: Off
Tues-Sat: Work/school
Sun-Tues: Off

Etc.

We'll either love having 3 days off all the time, or our heads will explode, one or the other.

 

[Bastiansmom]

The school I went to in 7th and 8th grade had a 4 day school week. This was about 15 years ago. We went to school Tues-Fri and the school day was from 8:00 - 4:15. It was a very small school, grades PreK - 8th grade about 150 students total, but worked GREAT!! I loved it. It was easier to plan for days out of school because a lot of holidays are already on Monday and teachers' meetings were always scheduled for Monday. The extra hour was completely unnoticed and didn't really affect me at all.

This was the ONLY school I have every been to where we actually got thru all of our textbooks. Every other school I went to (there were quite a few) we would get to page 250 of our 400 page math book every year. In fact, we finished in April and our teacher had us take a review test. If you didn't make a 100 on the test, you did lessons on those subjects until you made a 100. That is the only classroom I have been in where we had the opportunity to make sure we had learned everything, not just get slammed on a standardized test. We had time do focus on a subject for an hour or more each day rather than having to rush thru everything.

As a parent, I am sure there would be some logistical issues my family would have to work out, but there is no doubt in my mind that my son would LEARN more if our school district adopted this kind of schedule.

Coming from someone that has been there, done that... IT WORKS!!!

 

[palavra]

As a parent, it would be a nightmare. And it would greatly increase my childcare costs. In general, I think kids are tired at the end of a school day and I don't see this as having a positive impact on learning.

But is it the school systems job to babysit your kids? If the school changed to a 4 day week, and it would benefit the students, teachers and budget, parents would have to adapt. I think it is a great idea to go to a 4 day week. At may school, we have frequent absences on Fridays and mondays because of vacations and other trips. The school day could be lenthened by one hour a day with some extracurriculars moved to after school instead of during the school day.

 

[palavra]

I think it is a terrible idea. Little kids aren't going to tolerate being at school for 10 hours a day, and this seems to be the way that it is handled. ALso, what about a life after school, with homework there would almost no time for other activities.

Sorry but I think there has to be another way to save money. Good thing where I live in Florida, this hasn't come up . Well I think it did about 2 years ago, but was very quickly shot down.

Where are you getting 10 hour days?

 

[palavra]

If the teachers are working on those days, it doesn't reduce the costs, does it??? I see teachers responding to this post from THEIR perspective, and parents responding from THEIR perspective. Does anyone have any information on how this works out for the kids, and the amount they're able to learn? Some how I think our kids are going to be short changed.

I think it might work out very well for the kids. There would be more time during the day to really help those kids who struggle or provide enrichment for those who are working above grade level. I really don't understand how the kids would be shortchanged?

 

[palavra]

8 hour school day is too long. Sorry but kids have lives after school. This is only my opinion and thankfully most everyone else's where I live. Now, if they want to take away homework on those days, I may change my mind, but no way would I endorse an extra hour with the same amount of homework.

Lot's of kids are in day care until 5:30-6:00 everyday. How is that different than a longer school day? Therre would definitely be a reduced need for homework as teachers and students would have extra time during the day to get everything done.

 

[castleview]

But is it the school systems job to babysit your kids? If the school changed to a 4 day week, and it would benefit the students, teachers and budget, parents would have to adapt. I think it is a great idea to go to a 4 day week. At may school, we have frequent absences on Fridays and mondays because of vacations and other trips. The school day could be lenthened by one hour a day with some extracurriculars moved to after school instead of during the school day.

 

[kamik86]

For those that say they should extend teh school year into the summer to make up for the 4 day week... Your kind of missing the point.

The point of a four day week is to have less school days, thus less days with busses, less days with school lunches to cook, less days to heat/air condition the school, less days to pay janitors etc.

If they extended further into the summer they would just have shifted around when they get to pay those bills but they would still have the same number of days and not really save any money.

If the point of this was that someone thought that spending more consecutive time on a subject and having more days off to process it before moving on would make education better, and that not having a large gap in the summer would make education better then extending into the summer with a 4 day week would be a great idea. But that wasn't the point of suggesting a 4 day week.

 

[MrsPete]

Depends on where you live and depends on the educators, you mean to tell me NO-WHERE in any school system anywhere are ANY teachers ever making $ in this range? That's just not true, I don't believe it that teaching is somehow devoid of friends padding friends' salaries. I accept that some districts are impoverished, and that's where the battle cry comes from, but not all are impoverished. When you work with averages you dump everyone in and divide them up, I'd like to know where the top earners sit in real numbers in big cities and know if they are all worth it.... I bet all taxpayers would.

Also as far as veterans being good, that's not true either, some teachers just rot, there I said it... some teachers are awful and have been awful for decades. I wish doing something for a long time meant, by definition that you get better at it but it just ain't so, it not true anywhere ever.

This isn't to say some aren't excellent and deserve every penny, if not more... of course some do, but not all of them.

I have no problem with teachers earning their keep, I do have a problem if teachers are put ahead of the kids they are supposed to be helping. Kids first, always first.

Any taxpayer (or non-taxpayers, for that matter) who wants to know about teacher salaries in his or her area can easily do so with a google search. All teacher salaries are public knowledge.

Here, start with my state: http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2010-11schedules.pdf. You'll find that a teacher with a Doctorate Degree AND a National Board Certification AND 33 years experience tops out at 67K per year. Probably about three teachers in the whole state are at that top salary.

I'd much rather get rid of the class size requirements and the standardized tests. That should save a bundle right there.

If people really knew how much we spend on standardized tests, they'd all demand that they disappear. Several have actually been cut for next year.

Start earlier? In my district, the high schools start at 7:30, the middle schools at 8:10 and the elementary schools at 8:50. How much earlier should they start?

If you want the elementary school to start earlier (a half an hour, for example), the middle school and high school would have to start a half an hour earlier as well, because the same buses do the various runs for all the schools.

We start even earlier than that. And, yes, you're right that you have to "layer" the start times. We can't get people to drive busses these days (yes, even today when people claim they're looking for jobs -- no one wants to drive a school bus), so all drivers do a high school load and then an elementary load, or maybe a middle school load and then an elementary load. On the plus side, the drivers get more hours than they did in the past, and it means that we don't have ALL the busses on the road at the same time (which helps traffic).

I'd rather see the 4-day week extend the school year into the summer further instead of making up all the time with longer days. Maybe split the difference - an extra 30 minutes each day plus however many extra days into June or start of July.

But the discussion is about saving money -- not just changing the school year for the fun of changing it. Moving the days into the summer would not save a day of bussing, and it'd cost MORE to air condition the schools than it does to heat them (here in the South anyway).

Where are you getting 10 hour days?

My students are currently at school 7.5 hours a day. If you lose one day a week, that day must be divided up evenly among the other four, leaving a 9.5 hour day. You're right -- it's not 10, though by the time you include arrival and dismissal time, it will be 10 in reality.

I think it might work out very well for the kids. There would be more time during the day to really help those kids who struggle or provide enrichment for those who are working above grade level. I really don't understand how the kids would be shortchanged?

No, this schedule wouldn't include time for remediation or enrichment -- the lessons that were previously taught on Friday would have to be divided up Monday - Thursday. No extra time would be available.

Here's an example with nice round numbers:

Let's say a middle school class is reading 20 pages of something a day.
So they cover 100 pages a week.

If we switch to a four-day week, they must now read 25 pages a day to cover the same amount of material (100 pages a week) by the end of the year. This is do-able because they have more time in class each day, but they CAN'T suddenly begin reading 25 pages in the same time that it took to read 20, so no new time is available for remediation or enrichment.

You could change that example to X number of math problems, sentences written, chemistry experiments, time in PE or whatever -- the concept is still the same.

Therre would definitely be a reduced need for homework as teachers and students would have extra time during the day to get everything done.

No, again, no new time would be created -- see the above example. No extra time for homework in class. You've gotta do the Friday work Monday - Thursday -- the homework still has to go home. OR you have to lose some of the material, which is what would really happen.

 

[mum4jenn]

I like the idea. Our school day is 6.5 hours now, and would be a little over 8 hours a day if we did 4 days. 8:00-4:10 sounds good to me. I really don't know what they'd do about teacher workdays/inservice days, because teachers are contracted for a certain amount of days. With this schedule, the number of days would change, because we would be working more hours per day. Having us do inservice on a Monday would be like having them do inservice on Saturday now.



Not really. They would be working more hours on the four days, just like teachers. Instead of working their hours over 5 days, they would do it over four. And actually, some may be able to get a job on that fifth day, which would create more income for them.
.

That is NOT true. Lunchroom workers will still just be theer to cook breakfast and lunch and they will NOT get paid anything at all on the "day off". Also bus drivers are not paid by the whole school day. They are paid a certain amount of time for the morning trip and again for the afternoon trip. These two categories of workers WOULD be taking a 36 day cut in pay since they would work 4 days a week and not 5 days a week. Most of the lunchroom workers here are paid for a 6 hour day at minimum wage which is already under the poverty rate...cut that by 6 more hours per week for 36 weeks and that is BAD BAD news for them.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Any taxpayer (or non-taxpayers, for that matter) who wants to know about teacher salaries in his or her area can easily do so with a google search. All teacher salaries are public knowledge.

Here, start with my state: http://www.ncpublicschools.org/docs/fbs/finance/salary/schedules/2010-11schedules.pdf. You'll find that a teacher with a Doctorate Degree AND a National Board Certification AND 33 years experience tops out at 67K per year. Probably about three teachers in the whole state are at that top salary.If people really knew how much we spend on standardized tests, they'd all demand that they disappear. Several have actually been cut for next year. We start even earlier than that. And, yes, you're right that you have to "layer" the start times. We can't get people to drive busses these days (yes, even today when people claim they're looking for jobs -- no one wants to drive a school bus), so all drivers do a high school load and then an elementary load, or maybe a middle school load and then an elementary load. On the plus side, the drivers get more hours than they did in the past, and it means that we don't have ALL the busses on the road at the same time (which helps traffic). But the discussion is about saving money -- not just changing the school year for the fun of changing it. Moving the days into the summer would not save a day of bussing, and it'd cost MORE to air condition the schools than it does to heat them (here in the South anyway). My students are currently at school 7.5 hours a day. If you lose one day a week, that day must be divided up evenly among the other four, leaving a 9.5 hour day. You're right -- it's not 10, though by the time you include arrival and dismissal time, it will be 10 in reality. No, this schedule wouldn't include time for remediation or enrichment -- the lessons that were previously taught on Friday would have to be divided up Monday - Thursday. No extra time would be available.

Here's an example with nice round numbers:

Let's say a middle school class is reading 20 pages of something a day.
So they cover 100 pages a week.

If we switch to a four-day week, they must now read 25 pages a day to cover the same amount of material (100 pages a week) by the end of the year. This is do-able because they have more time in class each day, but they CAN'T suddenly begin reading 25 pages in the same time that it took to read 20, so no new time is available for remediation or enrichment.

You could change that example to X number of math problems, sentences written, chemistry experiments, time in PE or whatever -- the concept is still the same.No, again, no new time would be created -- see the above example. No extra time for homework in class. You've gotta do the Friday work Monday - Thursday -- the homework still has to go home. OR you have to lose some of the material, which is what would really happen.

Are we still doing averages because averages are useless, I don't like them, never have and never will because they paint a distorted picture. How about we do the average income for an American citizen? I think the average HOUSEHOLD sits fairly high, should we all assume that's what everyone makes or maybe no because the real world doesn't work in averages.
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/income_expenditures_poverty_wealth.html

I vote for no because averages are derived by adding up everyone across the spectrum, dividing them by the number of participants and getting the number if things were shared equally. But things are not shared equally so the exercise really tells us nothing of any value. Average does nothing to tell me about who is sitting on either extreme of the spectrum and since I am only interested at those on the top end, and of those only the members who may be there due to time rather than skill averages are less than useful. The numbers out there have no relevance unless they will breakdown individual salaries constructed to reflect the mode, that would be useful and pertinent to my point. Even then the list would have to include both poor and wealthy districts, including exceptions, I don't think such lists exist.
( In case my point is now lost, my point is that high paid crummy teachers can be/should be replaced by potentially better teachers who will take less fresh out of school)

In NYC I seem to remember the teachers being paid very well and in other states the rates were really really high. Not that they don't deserve it, some do, but to say all teachers are suffering in poverty... well that's not quite true either.

I don't see why people have their fur up, unless you are a high paid teacher not worth your salary I'm not talking about you.

 

[2girlsmom]

I just wanted to respond to the posters about the number of school hours vs days. You can check your state guidelines, I only checked mine. But here in Iowa, the 180 school days says that if you have 32 hours of educational time in the first 4 days of the week, the 5th is "free", ie counted toward your days but not required to be an actual school day. So that is 8 hours in the classroom per day for 4 days per week, 32 hours of classroom time = 5 education days. Based on the schedules that some of your have stated, your schools are already nearly in session for long enough each day now to meet the requirement and drop a day of each week. We have a number of schools in Iowa that are going to a 4 day school week, as it doesn't lengthen the calendar and is actually increased our classroom time very minimally. My district does not currently participate in a 4 day program, my elementary child's day is 8:30am-3:35pm (7 hours 5 minutes -20 minutes lunch = 6 hrs 45 minutes) if they went to a 4 day program, they would need to add 1 hr 15 minutes, which they could do by starting at 8am, and ending at 4:15 for example. My middle schooler would by that schedule start at 7:30am and get out at 3:50pm (high school is on the same schedule for start and end) to keep the bus scheduling staggered, or could start later and finish later slightly than the little kids. Either way, is it early, YES. Would I mind this option being used? Not at all!

 

[torinsmom]

That means they can start when they are 4 and turn 5 on January 1st. A LOT of parents don't do this, so the problem currently is that there are a lot of kids starting K at 4y9mo and there are others starting at nearly 6, too much disparity, that's why they are considering the change.

Okay, it is CRAZY that a child can start K at 4 years and 9 months! Most kids are nowhere near ready at that age. In NC, our cut off date is 8/31, which I think is a good one.

I'd much rather get rid of the class size requirements and the standardized tests. That should save a bundle right there.

I'd agree with you on the testing, but I wouldn't get rid of class size maximums. Can you imagine how much a K child would learn in a class of 40?

 

[scrapquitler]

Okay, it is CRAZY that a child can start K at 4 years and 9 months! Most kids are nowhere near ready at that age. In NC, our cut off date is 8/31, which I think is a good o

Well we homeschooled for K-2nd, but my daughter has one of those mid-October birthdays, and she was reading the Magic Tree House books and doing double digit multiplication (20X16) by the time she could have started K at 4 years 10 months...but no way would she have dealt with it emotionally/maturity wise. She made the K cutoff, not the private school cutoffs, and so we homeschooled.

 

[golfgal]

Again, we aren't free by any means. So no this doesn't equal that. How can a parent that pays for daycare at the school, and it isn't cheap, call it free daycare.

FWIW, I don't work, I have never used after school care, so really this isn't a problem for me, but I understand where it would be. Churches around here already have enough going on, and real estate where I am is horribly expensive, so no I don't think your day care popping up would just happen.

The comment wasn't about DAY CARE AT SCHOOL that you pay for, people made the comment that school wasn't day care-school meaning being in the classroom with the teacher, learning reading, writing and arithmetic, etc. They are NOT talking about REAL day care where you send your child because you are working and can't be with them and need a babysitter.

 

[torinsmom]

Well we homeschooled for K-2nd, but my daughter has one of those mid-October birthdays, and she was reading the Magic Tree House books and doing double digit multiplication (20X16) by the time she could have started K at 4 years 10 months...but no way would she have dealt with it emotionally/maturity wise. She made the K cutoff, not the private school cutoffs, and so we homeschooled.

It definitely varies. We have a child in our class(preK/K) who turned 5 in November and she could have easily mastered all the K work. She has been working on K level since January. OTOH, I have a K who turned 6 in December that is not anywhere near ready for 1st grade. I really wish we could assess kids and decide individually which ones are ready and which ones are not.

 

[horseshowmom]

I don't see why people have their fur up, unless you are a high paid teacher not worth your salary I'm not talking about you.

I don't think anybody's fur is up, I think they're just pointing out that you're making a generalization that probably has little basis in truth. I just pulled up our salary schedule (which has nothing to do with averages). A first year teacher starts at $30,900. A teacher with a doctorate (which very, very few classroom teachers have) and 35 years experience tops out at $64,870. If you have National Board certification, you receive an additional $6000. Again, this is not an average, it is the salary that the state pays.

I can't speak for states that pay more than mine, but since you said 23 year old teachers who would work for $30,000, that fits my state's salary schedule. I can guarantee you that we have no teachers in this state making $150,000 a year.

 

[Pigeon]

Okay, it is CRAZY that a child can start K at 4 years and 9 months! Most kids are nowhere near ready at that age. In NC, our cut off date is 8/31, which I think is a good one.

My girls were both just about 4 years, 9 months when they started K. They had no problems at all and were reading before they started K. It was a total non-issue.