Flying with carseat or no carseat?

[NotUrsula]

Britax carseats are normally the most expensive available from most US dealers; the only more expensive seats I can think of offhand are the Maxi-Cosi and those custom jobbies that BMW sells that are are made to match your car's upholstery. Britax are great seats, but I don't think I'd recommend someone buy one for use as a spare, or if their child was nearly at the age of outgrowing the weight limit. A Britax is a pretty substantial investment.

The most common 5-pt convertible toddler carseat provided by car rental companies is the Cosco Touriva and its variant names. It's not a plushy seat by any means, but the 5-pt. version is a good basic seat that is easy to install in most vehicles. We bought one as our "Grandma seat" and to use it for travel so that we would not have to take out the seats in our cars (which are heavy.) We used ours on planes MANY times, and installed it in rental cars in several countries. The Touriva weighs about 7 lbs. Here it is on the Wal-Mart site, and this price is about what you would find it for in the stores (normally under $50): http://www.walmart.com/catalog/prod...1368&type=1&dept=5427&path=0:5427:91365:91368

BTW, every carseat review article or website I've read over the last several years says that overhead-shield seats are really not very safe, and recommend against using them. Though they do tend to be certified for aircraft use, I've seen people have real problems using them on aircraft due to the curvature of the bulkhead -- it sometimes stops the shield frame from going all the way up. BTW, the aircraft certification designation for carseats has existed since the early 1980's in the US, and my 19 yo niece rode in hers while on planes.

 

[grlpwrd]

Well, I can say I care not just because kids are so precious, but if they are not restrained during a flight they can hurt themselves and others, too. When they become projectiles then it becomes a concern to all passengers as well.

I'm not uptight and paranoid, just safety-minded.

 

[crazywig]

i want to second NotUrsula's recommendation of the cosco seat. i have the 'scenera' (new version of the touriva which i also have but it's non latch and a pain to travel with). the scenera is extremely light and very easy to travel with.

 

[justhat]

I just wanted to thank you guys who posted the names of lightweight carseats cause you're really making me think it will be a good investment to buy for travelling. We have a carseat at my mom's house so I never thought about buying one just for planes and stuff, but now with another baby coming I'm thinking the lightest carseat we can get for Madison will be helpful since we'll have to tote around another carseat as well pretty soon. Sorry to take away from the OP's thread, but thanks!

 

[DisneyPhD]

I just wanted to thank you guys who posted the names of lightweight carseats cause you're really making me think it will be a good investment to buy for travelling. We have a carseat at my mom's house so I never thought about buying one just for planes and stuff, but now with another baby coming I'm thinking the lightest carseat we can get for Madison will be helpful since we'll have to tote around another carseat as well pretty soon. Sorry to take away from the OP's thread, but thanks!

I want to second this thank you (but we don't have another baby on the way, ). I am considering getting a new one for Lily because I am getting a little sick of the over head thing with her. However I was just thinking about getting a 2nd one like we already have for her big sister (that works as a car seat with 5 point harness, or a boster with a seat belt. (I think it is an evenflo, very common.) It is high back and that seems like a pain in the plane though. I wouldn't dream of trying to lug around the over the top one, just too big of a pain in the butt.

 

[stacy6552]

What would a carseat do if there were a plane crash? All you need do is look at the Souix City crash. 2 infants died after being throw from their parents grasp, but their parents walked off the plane. Had the children been secured, they would have survived. A third would have died had a stranger not heard his cries and rescued him from an overhead bin.

Children under 2 are 15 times more likely to suffer serious injury during terbulence than any other flyers and its attributed to riding unsecured on laps.

Its not paranoia to secure your child. Especially since FAA regulations require coffee pots to be secured.

 

[alloyd1170]

Weve flown a lot with our now 4 yr old son and 6 mos old daughter. Its safer with a car seat, but like others have mentioned, once weve gotten to our destinations (cruises mainly) we didnt need seats so there was no point in lugging it. The one time we did need one for our son, we had to check it anyways since it was booster type and not allowed on the plane. Instead I just held my babies in my lap. I tried the Baby B'air once and felt it was a waste of money. I wasnt allowed to use it on take offs and landings and now they are not allowed on most airlines. I did use a sling with my daughter and once airborn, put her in it where she slept tightly against me for the entire flight.

alison

 

[DisneyPhD]

Weve flown a lot with our now 4 yr old son and 6 mos old daughter. Its safer with a car seat, but like others have mentioned, once weve gotten to our destinations (cruises mainly) we didnt need seats so there was no point in lugging it. The one time we did need one for our son, we had to check it anyways since it was booster type and not allowed on the plane. Instead I just held my babies in my lap. I tried the Baby B'air once and felt it was a waste of money. I wasnt allowed to use it on take offs and landings and now they are not allowed on most airlines. I did use a sling with my daughter and once airborn, put her in it where she slept tightly against me for the entire flight.

alison

I use the baby bjorn to get the baby on and off the airplane a number of times, and never had them metion it at all. It is just easier to get her on the plane with my hand free, and it puts her in front and not off to the side so her doesn't hit the seats.

I have never tried to use it on take off and landing though. (I have heard they weren't allowd, I never tried to push it.)

I have held her a number of times. Most times she falls alseep in my arms and gets very heavy for the rest of the trips.

 

[CherCrazy]

What would a carseat do if there were a plane crash? All you need do is look at the Souix City crash. 2 infants died after being throw from their parents grasp, but their parents walked off the plane. Had the children been secured, they would have survived. A third would have died had a stranger not heard his cries and rescued him from an overhead bin.

Children under 2 are 15 times more likely to suffer serious injury during terbulence than any other flyers and its attributed to riding unsecured on laps.
Its not paranoia to secure your child. Especially since FAA regulations require coffee pots to be secured.

THANK YOU STACY for writing about this crash in your post. I was skimming this thread as fast as I could to find some mention of this crash.

You are almost correct in your statements regarding the crash. The flight attendants made the children lay on the floors in front of their mothers. This was the best known safety standard of that time. They knew that the children would be worse off in their parents arms, I'd like to mention. Car seats were not allowed/encouraged on board then. The lead flight attendant became the biggest advocate of child/infant safety after that crash and she eventually led the way for airlines to allow children to be restrained in car seats on board.

It's the same reason why car seats are required in cars...if there's a sudden movement, your baby will become a projectile.

 

[justhat]

I use the baby bjorn to get the baby on and off the airplane a number of times, and never had them metion it at all. It is just easier to get her on the plane with my hand free, and it puts her in front and not off to the side so her doesn't hit the seats.

I have never tried to use it on take off and landing though. (I have heard they weren't allowd, I never tried to push it.)

I have held her a number of times. Most times she falls alseep in my arms and gets very heavy for the rest of the trips.

We did that too till Madison was about 15 months old or so. I loved the Bjorn for boarding/getting off the plane cause it was so nice to have my hands free to carry the diaper bag and stuff. We never tried to use it in flight, but I had a couple of FAs tell me that I couldn't. Of course, they would say that while they saw me bringing on/installing her carseat so not sure why they even bothered cause no way would I lug that thing onboard and then not use it! After around 15 months though, even though she still met the size requirements (actually I think she still does now!) her legs just got too long to be comfortable for me so we stopped using it.

 

[NotUrsula]

You are almost correct in your statements regarding the crash. The flight attendants made the children lay on the floors in front of their mothers. This was the best known safety standard of that time. They knew that the children would be worse off in their parents arms, I'd like to mention. Car seats were not allowed/encouraged on board then. The lead flight attendant became the biggest advocate of child/infant safety after that crash and she eventually led the way for airlines to allow children to be restrained in car seats on board.

There are a couple of inaccuracies in the above paragraph as well, I'm afraid.

The Sioux City crash happened in 1989, but US federal law (14 CFR 121.311) has mandated certification standards for aircraft use of CRS's (carseats) since January 1, 1981. In 1985, the law was modified to, among other things, specifically mention aircraft certification, so as to help stop challenges from air crew. From the time it was amended in 1981 to include regulations on CRS use in aircraft, this regulation has also contained the following statement: "(2) Except as required in paragraph (c)(1) of this section, no certificate holder may prohibit a child, if requested by the child's parent, guardian, or designated attendant, from occupying a child restraint system furnished by the child's parent, guardian, or designated attendant provided— (i) The child holds a ticket for an approved seat or berth or such seat or berth is otherwise made available by the certificate holder for the child's use ... (iv) The child restraint system has one or more of the labels described in paragraphs (b)(2)(ii)(A) through (b)(2)(ii)(C) of this section." [Paragraph (c)(1) refers to situations where the airline has chosen to supply a CRS for the child's use, which no US carrier now does.]

The FA's on UA232 were fully aware that being in a carseat would have been safer than being on the floor, but all three of the babies mentioned here were flying as lap babies that day, and were too small to be securely belted into passenger seats. [EDITED to remove outdated information on infant brace position.]

The lead FA on UA232 has indeed done a great deal to raise awareness about the safety benefits of putting a baby in an approved carseat while in flight, but she did not play any role in changing any laws or rules about carseat use. 14 CFR 121.311 is for all practical purposes still the same as it was at the time of the Sioux City crash.

PS: One other thing I feel I have to say about this. The Sioux City crash (UA232) is often brought up on this board as an example of a serious crash in which a carseat would have saved a baby. While I am generally an advocate of using carseats on board aircraft, I have to say that I think UA232 is kind of a bad example, because that was a TRULY catastrophic crash, and the split between those who walked away and those who were killed/seriously injured was only 184 to 158. (The plane was a wide-body DC10, and a large chunk of the fuselage actually *cartwheeled* when it crashed. IMO, that ANYONE survived it was a certified miracle.) The assumption that the babies who died would have survived with minimal injury is based on the survival of their parents; the thinking is that since the children would have been seated near their parents, they, too, would have survived if they had remained in their seats. For my part, while I feel that a carseat does indeed provide protection from injury in a minor on-ground impact or severe turbulence, I don't like guessing what might have happened to the babies on UA232.

 

[Kristi1357]

Nope, you are right you didn't outwright call anyone names but IMHO you implied that those who's views and advice differed from yours were uptight and paranoid. Also you replied in a "tense" way to someone who was just trying to give you information. Just the way I saw it -

Honestly I do wonder why you posted a question indicating you were struggling with a decision when its seems to me that you had already made up your mind. Just me wondering - no biggie.

I am also wondering why the OP even asked this question. It just seems like they had their mind made up anyway. Weird.

SW MHT flyers - I was the uptight mom flying with a 2 year old and our gigantic Britax Marathon car seat last Oct., Dec. & Jan.!

 

[tiggerzpalz]

I posted on this thread previously, and stated my opinion one way, and have followed the thread and seen other opinions opposite of mine. That's great! We as individuals are entitled to our own opinions. Sometimes, though, as what has happened on this thread, opinions turn into snarky remarks and that is why people get upset or hurt. The OP was really on the fence and looking for opinions, not comments like "I choose safety over convenience" or stats from airplane crashes. Just opinions.

It is hard enough to make the right decision for you and your family without feeling as if others are judging you. I know I second guess my decisions all the time, which is why I followed this thread. I always wonder if I should try the seat again, maybe people have other ideas that might work for my DS. Maybe we could just try and get back to the orginal question. I know I have gotten useful info about different seats that might work and would love to not read through all the remarks.

 

[justhat]

I can see you point, though I have to say I didn't post any 'snarky' remarks, just my opinion and why people on these boards use car seats (cause the was one of the original questions by the OP) and then when I gave what I thought was helpful info on a product the OP was planning to use I got a not so friendly remark which led me to believe that the OP was not really on the fence and did not really want to see opinions from both sides.

 

[meloneyb21]

I posted on this thread previously, and stated my opinion one way, and have followed the thread and seen other opinions opposite of mine. That's great! We as individuals are entitled to our own opinions. Sometimes, though, as what has happened on this thread, opinions turn into snarky remarks and that is why people get upset or hurt. The OP was really on the fence and looking for opinions, not comments like "I choose safety over convenience" or stats from airplane crashes. Just opinions.

It is hard enough to make the right decision for you and your family without feeling as if others are judging you. I know I second guess my decisions all the time, which is why I followed this thread. I always wonder if I should try the seat again, maybe people have other ideas that might work for my DS. Maybe we could just try and get back to the orginal question. I know I have gotten useful info about different seats that might work and would love to not read through all the remarks.

Thank You, that is exactly how I felt being the OP. I really did not want to start a whole debating match over who said what to whom, just an opinion, but I also don't like it when it seems like someone is playing "Know-It-All" and is just judgemental. Honestly, it didn't have to go there and maybe I took it the wrong way. I get snappy comments from people all the time and I just didn't expect that on a happy place like the DIS..........In the end, all is well, I am happy with my decision.

 

[traci]

Why airlines don't provide carseats for infants in the first place?

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

What would a carseat do if there were a plane crash? All you need do is look at the Souix City crash. 2 infants died after being throw from their parents grasp, but their parents walked off the plane. Had the children been secured, they would have survived. A third would have died had a stranger not heard his cries and rescued him from an overhead bin.

Children under 2 are 15 times more likely to suffer serious injury during terbulence than any other flyers and its attributed to riding unsecured on laps.

Its not paranoia to secure your child. Especially since FAA regulations require coffee pots to be secured.

Actually IIRC based on a documentary of the flight and interview with flight attendants. The babies died b/c they were instructed to place them on the floor--and upon impact--they slid down the airplane.

The parents were distraught and went to the flight attendants and asked WHY they were told to do this.

I could be remembering the wrong flight--but I am pretty sure it was this one.

Writing they "walked away" makes it sound so insensitive and nonchalent their reaction to the tragedy.

Placing lap-children on the floor is STILL standard crash brace position for a lap-child under age 2. The FA's on UA232 were fully aware that being in a carseat would have been safer than being on the floor, but all three of the babies mentioned here were flying as lap babies that day, and were too small to be securely belted into passenger seats. The primary reason why lap babies must be placed on the floor for an impending crash is not for the babies' safety; they are placed there to protect the other passengers from being hit by them, because if they are held in arms upon impact, they will go airborne.

According to that same documentary and according to my checking with airlines--this is not true. Can you please provide the FAA link for this.

That safety standard was changed and they no longer place the babies on the floor for emergency landings.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

We have flown both ways. It worked for us.

 

[NotUrsula]

I stand corrected on the brace position for infants; it was apparently changed in 2003, though the FAA does a rather poor job of explaining exactly what it is,

f. Children which are occupying approved child restraint devices should be braced in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions. Children in passenger seats should utilize the same brace position as adults. Adults holding infants should provide as uniform support as possible to the infant's head, neck, and body, and lean over the infant to minimize the possibility of injury due to flailing.

The cite for this is FAA Advisory Circular AC121-24C (2003) http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/1ab39b4ed563b08985256a35006d56af/2026259a7a7247f986256d7a00508ba7/$FILE/AC121-24C.pdf

The CAA (Canada) does a much better job of explaining what is
apparently the new standard: http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/commerce/circulars/AC0155_att.htm

Writing they "walked away" makes it sound so insensitive and nonchalent their reaction to the tragedy.

Nothing about anyone's "reactions" was intended; I wrote that because that is a conventional way of referring to a "minor injury" sustained in a crash of any kind; a person who is able to evacuate under his/her own power is said to have walked away; it doesn't mean that person is not hurt, it just means that they are not hurt badly enough to require extraction by emergency workers. 158 of the passengers on UA238 were listed as having minor injuries or no injuries. (There is actually a very detailed diagram available of the injuries/deaths on UA232 by seat location, it is in this PDF: http://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/2001Conference/files/CrashOccupantInjuryCriteria/LLaBunSLIDE.pdf)

[Apologies for the wide format; I can't seem to resize it.]

 

[tjmw2727]

I posted on this thread previously, and stated my opinion one way, and have followed the thread and seen other opinions opposite of mine. That's great! We as individuals are entitled to our own opinions. Sometimes, though, as what has happened on this thread, opinions turn into snarky remarks and that is why people get upset or hurt. The OP was really on the fence and looking for opinions, not comments like "I choose safety over convenience" or stats from airplane crashes. Just opinions.

It is hard enough to make the right decision for you and your family without feeling as if others are judging you. I know I second guess my decisions all the time, which is why I followed this thread. I always wonder if I should try the seat again, maybe people have other ideas that might work for my DS. Maybe we could just try and get back to the orginal question. I know I have gotten useful info about different seats that might work and would love to not read through all the remarks.

Thanks for posting this tiggerz was a nice post that helped me think more about what the OP may have been feeling and why she got so defensive.

FWIW I did use a CRS for my dd's on the aircraft and I only respond to these posts when someone is asking for the advice which it seemed the OP was. IIRC she asked if a CRS would really help in a crash and do people really use them and why. So it seems reasonable to me that peple were posting the FAA and AAP recomendations as well as the stats.

When responding to these questions I try to provide facts and when I state my opinon I try and make sure it comes across as my opinion and only that.

What I didn't see was a reason for the OP to feel so judged until you pointed out the "I choose safety over convenience" attitude. I am not sure if the person loosely quoted meant this as judgemental but I can now see how someone could have taken it that way.

OTOH I hope you and maybe even the OP can see how I felt when she said she won't do something I do because she isn't uptight and paranoid. To me that infers that people who do such a thing are uptight and paranoid.

That and some remarks I considered snippy lead me to beleive the OP just wanted backup on the decision she already made instead of opinions and advice on the matter.

So - when this subject comes up again, which it will very soon, I will be even more careful on how I word my response. If I have information I think the OP will find interesting or valuable I will respond. I promise to give my opinion and the reasons for it while trying not to sound judgemental.

Peace
TJ