FLL airport - Shooting today at 1 pm - 9 wounded

[AnnaFloridaLover]

I generally agree that people have the right to refuse business. But if they were smart, they would just refuse and not give a specific reason. This is perfectly legal.

Smart or intolerant? Shudder.

 

[AnnaFloridaLover]

And I wouldn't stand for that either. That won't stop me from also not putting up with mistreatment of Middle Eastern women here in the U.S. Nothing I can do about it in their part of the world but I can certainly do something about it here.

So what is the difference in how you act/react to the mistreatment of women in the US or the Middle East? What, exactly are you doing to help, since you state "not putting up with mistreatment" of any women globally?

 

[bcla]

I generally agree that people have the right to refuse business. But if they were smart, they would just refuse and not give a specific reason. This is perfectly legal.

Ever heard of "class action"? It's not typical for a customer to be refused service without a reason. When someone in a protected class is denied service or given poor treatment, they often make an assumption about why. Businesses have been successfully sued for civil rights violations, even when they gave no reason for why they did what they did. For the most part, the most prudent thing for a business to do is accept all comers unless there's a reason that can be justified by law.

 

[mummabear]

Sigh. If you hold yourself out as providing a public accommodation, you must provide it to all people who are willing to pay your price for it. After all, in the 1950's there were churches preaching that it was against their religion to tolerate interracial marriage (seems pretty arcane now, right?). So, if that is the thinking of a church, is it ok for one of their members to have a public business and refuse to provide service to a mixed race couple? How about the KKK (which was premised on supposed religious beliefs that the white race was genetically superior to all others)? If I subscribe to their way of thinking, would it be fine for me to insist that only white people get my services?

The law in this country has been settled since the Civil Rights Act of 1964 about your obligations when you start a business and hold yourself out as providing that business to the public. If your religious beliefs, whatever they may be, preclude you from providing a service to ALL members of the public, then you don't start that business. Period. No one is forcing you to go into a business providing service to the public. But, if you do, then you provide your services/goods to all members of the public. It's pretty simple.

The alternative is ghastly. Seriously. Can I hang a sign in the window and exclude anyone I please? Why not? Gosh. We really are devolving.

I generally agree that people have the right to refuse business. But if they were smart, they would just refuse and not give a specific reason. This is perfectly legal.

Except when they are caught, say accepting a job for a heterosexual couple they turned down for a homosexual one, or if people connect the dots at all the homosexual couples they were turning down.
I would rather thy made heir stance known so I could make sure I wasn't giving them any business.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

In any number of ways, 2 people come in saying we are looking for a wedding cake.
If you make wedding cakes, you can't discriminate who you are willing to make them for.

Personally, here's where I think it should be:

"We don't bake cakes for same sex couples" - not okay

"We will sell a cake to anyone, but we don't decorate cakes with same sex figures on top" - okay

 

[pat fan]

Oh yes I Am. Women are raped, treated like second class citizens, not paid what their worth, etc, etc, etc, by American men everyday. Focus on the here and now, why focus what's going on elsewhere? It's not relevant to the discussion.

Um, not stoned to death, not given/forced into marriage as a child, have recourse in courts....I could go on and on. But if you truly believe what you say, there's no point in me talking. Just "wow" is all......

 

[CdnCarrie]

Pretty sure you mean you can't take it into Timmies

I rather think so! Yikes!

Yes.

 

[TLSnell1981]

WOW! This thread went south in a hurry. Unbelievably sad! Any particular reason?

 

[TLSnell1981]

Info regarding the victims of this tragedy..

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/07/us/fort-lauderdale-victims-profiles/

 

[mummabear]

Personally, here's where I think it should be:

"We don't bake cakes for same sex couples" - not okay

"We will sell a cake to anyone, but we don't decorate cakes with same sex figures on top" - okay

Why do you think the second one is ok? You are still discriminating, you are refusing to provide a service to a same sex couple that you would provide to a heterosexual couple.

Would you feel the same if instead the baker was saying "I will sell you a cake but I don't decorate cakes with African American figures on top"?

 

[pigletto]

I was in the airport yesterday for the initial shooting incident as well as the following incident not being talked about in the media. 14 of us had just returned from a cruise. We split off from my little sister who was going to fly to Tampa to be with her boyfriend and the rest of us were in Terminal three to fly to Buffalo.
I looked out the window and saw helicopters hovering in place, which prompted us to look at the tv monitor and see that there was a shooting occurring in the airport. Things were calm, people gradually gravitated to the tvs but no announcemnbets were made. While saddened and shocked we saw that the shooter was in custody, and that they felt it was a single incident.
It was at least a few hours later (we were really early for our flight) and my son was napping on my husband, my family were all sitting in a cluster of chairs. I was standing and chatting with them with my back to hallway (we were at the end of the terminal).
I heard the screams first. Turned to see people running frantically towards us, screaming there was a shooter and to get down. I screamed to my husband to put our son on the floor. We went as far under the seat benches as we could and tried to lay on top of the kids. Very briefly after I told my husband I wanted to run. He told us to wait and stood to see if we could, he yelled GO NOW and we along with many other screaming and crying people ran to the door. I pulled a teen girl with us who was screaming for her mom thinking she needed to get out. She did find her mom.
It was at the bottom of the stairs that my mom fell and sprained her ankle. I heard someone screaming and it was my husband picking up my sister in law to keep her from going back up the stairs. Her husband (my brother) was inside with the baby and they had been in the bathroom. We did not find or hear from them for at least 30 minutes. We called my sister in Terminal two. The same thing was simulataneously occurring in her terminal and I was telling her to find something to hide behind that looked bulletproof.. to get out of the open. She had heard shots and they dove for the floor. As I was on the phone with her i heard police run in and tell them all to run.

We waiting on the Tarmac for at least 6 hours that I barely remember. I know people were kind, updates and announcements were non existent but we were given water and eventually told they would be doing controlled detonations and not to be afraid. We were eventually evacuated by SWAT teams. As expected, evacuated 12000 tired and frightened people was not an easy or smooth process. Red Cross Emergency response teams met us at the cruise terminal where we were bussed. From there our large group walked out to main roads to get away from traffic jams and were able to get UBER to a hotel. We got in to the hotel at 2 am.

I lost my wallet and my daughters passport, my house keys, my car keys, all of our medications, my shoe. We have been contacted about where we can go to try and ID our luggage and just got through to the hotline to report the things left behind when we ran. I am amazed that the second incident is not being reported at all. Mass hysteria in multiple terminals at the same time with shots heard not only by my sister but multiple people we've spoken to since.

Regardless.. and here is the most important thing. I am ALIVE. My children are ALIVE. My family is ALIVE. The rest of it doesn't matter. People are mourning their loved ones today and they deserve all the support and love we can send them. My family will need counselling, but we have each other.
Thank you if you made it through all of this. I feel like I need to tell it over and over.

 

[bcla]

Why do you think the second one is ok? You are still discriminating, you are refusing to provide a service to a same sex couple that you would provide to a heterosexual couple.

Would you feel the same if instead the baker was saying "I will sell you a cake but I don't decorate cakes with African American figures on top"?

Under typical civil rights law in the US that address this, denying service based on being in a protected class isn't legal, but that doesn't obligate the business to provide goods or services that they're uncomfortable providing.

For several of the wedding cake/flower cases brought in the US, the plaintiffs didn't specifically ask for certain decorations that were any different. They were denied services strictly based on who they were or how the product would be used.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Why do you think the second one is ok? You are still discriminating, you are refusing to provide a service to a same sex couple that you would provide to a heterosexual couple.

Would you feel the same if instead the baker was saying "I will sell you a cake but I don't decorate cakes with African American figures on top"?

No, you're refusing to perform a different service. The gay or black couple can still buy the cake with a white male/female pair on top, or with no figures the same as the straight, white couple. All are afforded the same service, it's just not the service the 2nd & 3rd couples desire. The bakery doesn't have the right to decide WHO buys their cakes, but they should have the right to say what cakes & decorating services they will & will not provide.

I mean, if a KKK member came in, they couldn't refuse to sell him a cake. But, they could refuse to put a burning cross decoration on it - or do you not think they have that right?

 

[mummabear]

No, you're refusing to perform a different service. The gay or black couple can still buy the cake with a white male/female pair on top, or with no figures the same as the straight, white couple. All are afforded the same service, it's just not the service the 2nd & 3rd couples desire. The bakery doesn't have the right to decide WHO buys their cakes, but they should have the right to say what cakes & decorating services they will & will not provide.

I mean, if a KKK member came in, they couldn't refuse to sell him a cake. But, they could refuse to put a burning cross decoration on it - or do you not think they have that right?

Are the KKK a protected class?
I would argue that if you are a cake decorator-not someone selling premade pre decorated cakes but ones where they are made to order (which most wedding cakes are) then you are refusing to provide that same service, it's not up to you as the baker to decide how the cake should be decorated.

 

[Disneylover99]

I was in the airport yesterday for the initial shooting incident as well as the following incident not being talked about in the media. 14 of us had just returned from a cruise. We split off from my little sister who was going to fly to Tampa to be with her boyfriend and the rest of us were in Terminal three to fly to Buffalo.
I looked out the window and saw helicopters hovering in place, which prompted us to look at the tv monitor and see that there was a shooting occurring in the airport. Things were calm, people gradually gravitated to the tvs but no announcemnbets were made. While saddened and shocked we saw that the shooter was in custody, and that they felt it was a single incident.
It was at least a few hours later (we were really early for our flight) and my son was napping on my husband, my family were all sitting in a cluster of chairs. I was standing and chatting with them with my back to hallway (we were at the end of the terminal).
I heard the screams first. Turned to see people running frantically towards us, screaming there was a shooter and to get down. I screamed to my husband to put our son on the floor. We went as far under the seat benches as we could and tried to lay on top of the kids. Very briefly after I told my husband I wanted to run. He told us to wait and stood to see if we could, he yelled GO NOW and we along with many other screaming and crying people ran to the door. I pulled a teen girl with us who was screaming for her mom thinking she needed to get out. She did find her mom.
It was at the bottom of the stairs that my mom fell and sprained her ankle. I heard someone screaming and it was my husband picking up my sister in law to keep her from going back up the stairs. Her husband (my brother) was inside with the baby and they had been in the bathroom. We did not find or hear from them for at least 30 minutes. We called my sister in Terminal two. The same thing was simulataneously occurring in her terminal and I was telling her to find something to hide behind that looked bulletproof.. to get out of the open. She had heard shots and they dove for the floor. As I was on the phone with her i heard police run in and tell them all to run.

We waiting on the Tarmac for at least 6 hours that I barely remember. I know people were kind, updates and announcements were non existent but we were given water and eventually told they would be doing controlled detonations and not to be afraid. We were eventually evacuated by SWAT teams. As expected, evacuated 12000 tired and frightened people was not an easy or smooth process. Red Cross Emergency response teams met us at the cruise terminal where we were bussed. From there our large group walked out to main roads to get away from traffic jams and were able to get UBER to a hotel. We got in to the hotel at 2 am.

I lost my wallet and my daughters passport, my house keys, my car keys, all of our medications, my shoe. We have been contacted about where we can go to try and ID our luggage and just got through to the hotline to report the things left behind when we ran. I am amazed that the second incident is not being reported at all. Mass hysteria in multiple terminals at the same time with shots heard not only by my sister but multiple people we've spoken to since.

Regardless.. and here is the most important thing. I am ALIVE. My children are ALIVE. My family is ALIVE. The rest of it doesn't matter. People are mourning their loved ones today and they deserve all the support and love we can send them. My family will need counselling, but we have each other.
Thank you if you mad it through all of this. I feel like I need to tell it over and over.

Oh my goodness! I am so sorry you had to experience all this. How scary! I hope that you and your family will be okay. Please take care.

 

[bcla]

Except when they are caught, say accepting a job for a heterosexual couple they turned down for a homosexual one, or if people connect the dots at all the homosexual couples they were turning down.
I would rather thy made heir stance known so I could make sure I wasn't giving them any business.

The big case that came down in the US was of several agents of the United States Secret Service in the Presidential protection detail. They were dining at one location of the restaurant chain Denny's. The agents frankly self-segregated by race for whatever reason. They noticed their disparate treatment. The white agents were served promptly and were allowed to eat before being given their bills. The black agents were waiting a long time and were asked to pay up front. Once they filed a lawsuit, similar allegations were publicized, and Denny's made a statement that they wouldn't allow it and could punish employees and/or franchises that violated their corporate nondiscrimination policies.

 

[Pacolovestacos]

Why do you think the second one is ok? You are still discriminating, you are refusing to provide a service to a same sex couple that you would provide to a heterosexual couple.

Would you feel the same if instead the baker was saying "I will sell you a cake but I don't decorate cakes with African American figures on top"?

If the bakery has never provided a cake with an African American figure on top, and they don't advertise that in their list of services, nobody can compel them to do so.

 

[TLSnell1981]

I was in the airport yesterday for the initial shooting incident as well as the following incident not being talked about in the media. 14 of us had just returned from a cruise. We split off from my little sister who was going to fly to Tampa to be with her boyfriend and the rest of us were in Terminal three to fly to Buffalo.
I looked out the window and saw helicopters hovering in place, which prompted us to look at the tv monitor and see that there was a shooting occurring in the airport. Things were calm, people gradually gravitated to the tvs but no announcemnbets were made. While saddened and shocked we saw that the shooter was in custody, and that they felt it was a single incident.
It was at least a few hours later (we were really early for our flight) and my son was napping on my husband, my family were all sitting in a cluster of chairs. I was standing and chatting with them with my back to hallway (we were at the end of the terminal).
I heard the screams first. Turned to see people running frantically towards us, screaming there was a shooter and to get down. I screamed to my husband to put our son on the floor. We went as far under the seat benches as we could and tried to lay on top of the kids. Very briefly after I told my husband I wanted to run. He told us to wait and stood to see if we could, he yelled GO NOW and we along with many other screaming and crying people ran to the door. I pulled a teen girl with us who was screaming for her mom thinking she needed to get out. She did find her mom.
It was at the bottom of the stairs that my mom fell and sprained her ankle. I heard someone screaming and it was my husband picking up my sister in law to keep her from going back up the stairs. Her husband (my brother) was inside with the baby and they had been in the bathroom. We did not find or hear from them for at least 30 minutes. We called my sister in Terminal two. The same thing was simulataneously occurring in her terminal and I was telling her to find something to hide behind that looked bulletproof.. to get out of the open. She had heard shots and they dove for the floor. As I was on the phone with her i heard police run in and tell them all to run.

We waiting on the Tarmac for at least 6 hours that I barely remember. I know people were kind, updates and announcements were non existent but we were given water and eventually told they would be doing controlled detonations and not to be afraid. We were eventually evacuated by SWAT teams. As expected, evacuated 12000 tired and frightened people was not an easy or smooth process. Red Cross Emergency response teams met us at the cruise terminal where we were bussed. From there our large group walked out to main roads to get away from traffic jams and were able to get UBER to a hotel. We got in to the hotel at 2 am.

I lost my wallet and my daughters passport, my house keys, my car keys, all of our medications, my shoe. We have been contacted about where we can go to try and ID our luggage and just got through to the hotline to report the things left behind when we ran. I am amazed that the second incident is not being reported at all. Mass hysteria in multiple terminals at the same time with shots heard not only by my sister but multiple people we've spoken to since.

Regardless.. and here is the most important thing. I am ALIVE. My children are ALIVE. My family is ALIVE. The rest of it doesn't matter. People are mourning their loved ones today and they deserve all the support and love we can send them. My family will need counselling, but we have each other.
Thank you if you made it through all of this. I feel like I need to tell it over and over.

How horrible! I can't begin to imagine.. Thankfully, you and your family are safe.

 

[Pacolovestacos]

Are the KKK a protected class?
I would argue that if you are a cake decorator-not someone selling premade pre decorated cakes but ones where they are made to order (which most wedding cakes are) then you are refusing to provide that same service, it's not up to you as the baker to decide how the cake should be decorated.

It absolutely is up to the baker how they will decorate their cakes. You can't compel a bakery to decorate a cake the way you want it if that is not advertised as a specific option.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Are the KKK a protected class?
I would argue that if you are a cake decorator-not someone selling premade pre decorated cakes but ones where they are made to order (which most wedding cakes are) then you are refusing to provide that same service, it's not up to you as the baker to decide how the cake should be decorated.

Disagree. Now, you're infringing upon the decorator's rights.