Flat Tax?

[Planogirl]

Don't mean to turn this into "class warfare" argument but I'd like to know, since you said the rich need to pay more, how much more do you think the rich should pay in taxes?

Consider this.

In 2007 (or 08) the top 400 earners had an average income of $345 million and paid an average of 17 percent in federal income taxes.

Nearly half of all earners paid zero in federal income taxes. Of those, some portion (not sure how many) actually paid negative income tax meaning even though (through deductions and credits) they owed nothing, they got a check (not a refund because they had nothing to "refund") from the IRS for EITC, "Make Work Pay" and child credits. That totaled about $70 billion. They say that the wealth in the US is (too) concentrated in the uber wealthy. Just one of those top 400 paid more in taxes than nearly half of the earners.

I don't think that the wealthy should be forced to pay more even though it's disturbing that tax loops actually help some pay nothing or at least very little. I also don't think that tax increases should fall on the shoulders of the middle class. I don't like that some pay nothing or actually pay a negative amount but they, like the poor maligned corporations, take advantage of tax loopholes too.

I don't feel much sympathy for the corporations who pay nothing at all. They are still outsourcing so making that often huge profit doesn't seem to be helping workers much. Shareholders might earn some money but I'm willing to bet that the majority of stock is held by the rich. Not that there is anything wrong with that but again I don't feel sad for these corporations.

 

[Halbleib1]

[Also read the report that noted that many at low income have more disposable income than families making 60K/QUOTE]

You are so right! I have a co-worker who paid no income taxes in this year but got a REFUND of $3000 due to being a single mother - child tax credit etc, head of household . There is something very wrong with a system that gives you a refund when you paid NOTHING in. No wonder this country is in the financial trouble that it is in!

Actually if you have 0 tax liability than you can not claim the child tax credit if you are doing your taxes by the book and not cheating the system. You may be able to take the child and dependent care credit according to the IRS but you def. can not take the child tax credit. I know I just did our taxes over the weekend and because we had 0 tax liability after itemized deductions we were not elgible for the child tax credit. Which makes sense since it is a credit to reduce the amount of actual tax owed.
Example: if you owed 3000.00 but you had two children and qualified for a 1000.00 per child child tax credit than you would be able to reduce your tax liability from 3000.00 to 1000.00.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

a large portion of the 47% are very wealthy, they take advantage of tax breaks.

Do you really believe this??? There might be a few of the hated group of people making over $250K that pay no taxes, but almost all are paying something..

And in my view, a family making $40K a year and paying no income tax is on govt assistance, they might not be getting a monthly check, but they are getting free services.. EVERYONE in that 47% should be paying some federal income tax, even if its 1%..

 

[Dominus]

A national sales tax is a system that I think would work great for most people. The only reason I see to be against it is that I could see many people getting that prebate, spending it all as free money and then not having enough money to live (because everything costs more with taxes) - I don't agree that this is a problem I should care about because if they are then idiots for doing this but some people have bigger hearts then me. Actually I see one other reason too. There will be a psychological sticker shock. Even if in my head I know that item is more because of taxes, and that a lot of it was pre-bated anyway there will a time period where everything just seems so expensive now, even if it all works out in the end. I can see alot of people getting upset about that, I know I would have to keep reminding myself why my spending is so much higher week to week and that it is ok that there is more in my check (since less is taken as income taxes).

The problem with a very high national sales tax is that it would unfairly burden young families who spend about 90 cents of every dollar they earn. People who have already raised their kids, bought their homes etc. always love the sales tax idea. Do you remember being young? Having to buy and furnish a house, having kids and all the things you have to buy for them (diapers, clothes etc.). A national sales tax that would be high enough to replace the income tax would be a crushing weight on young families.

 

[eliza61]

Do you really believe this??? There might be a few of the hated group of people making over $250K that pay no taxes, but almost all are paying something..

And in my view, a family making $40K a year and paying no income tax is on govt assistance, they might not be getting a monthly check, but they are getting free services.. EVERYONE in that 47% should be paying some federal income tax, even if its 1%..

I'm not saying they pay no taxes at all but they damn sure are not "taxed to death" which is they're favorite mantra. As the links I provided showed most high wage earners are paying less than 15% income tax and sorry I know quite a few "housewives of New York" who are hovering right around the 3% federal tax rate, when all said and done.

I've said a gazzilion times every one should pay some thing. I'm all for getting rid of ALL the tax credits. Period, for rich and for poor.
and since I made way over 250 last year, I know of what I speak. with all the tax breaks my federal income rate dropped down to ~9%.

I never once said that any of the 47% should get any thing for free but you seem to want to make them out to be some welfare grabbing lazy slobs. they are getting no more free services than the rich. If they are making 40K what is it under the table? taxes should be taken out of their checks. If they get a refund it's because of the tax breaks that congress lets them take.

So either correct the system for everybody or nobody. If I make 450K and can reduce my income tax through loopholes and credits, then some one making 45K should be able to take advantage of the loopholes and credits available to them, if that brings their tax rate to 0 than so be it. And in most cases I have tax credits available to me that a non business owner does not in combination to the child care, college tuition credits and mortgage credits that I can avail myself to.

I stand by my assertion. The Rich definitely are not some abused Atlas figures being bogged down by the "weight" of the world and very few are hanging out in the 30% tax bracket either.

So basically your mad that the guy making 45K is taking advantage of the same system?

 

[eliza61]

The problem with a very high national sales tax is that it would unfairly burden young families who spend about 90 cents of every dollar they earn. People who have already raised their kids, bought their homes etc. always love the sales tax idea. Do you remember being young? Having to buy and furnish a house, having kids and all the things you have to buy for them (diapers, clothes etc.). A national sales tax that would be high enough to replace the income tax would be a crushing weight on young families.

I think ( and I'm not 100% positive) I read the argument with that was that young families may be burden for a very short period of time. The argument for this was that most people reach their highest earning potential in their late 40's and 50's when they are moving out of the diaper era and are already in their primary residence.

I thought that was the argument, I'm trying to find where I read it, so don't hold my feet to the fire.

I'll post when I do.

 

[Colleen27]

Well said! Donald Trump just said recently that he'll move out of the country if Obama raises the tax rate as he promised when the Bush tax cuts expire. The wealthy have the resources to do just that if they are being taxed to death, so then who will be paying their share - not the 47% who pay nothing at all -that's for sure!

Political posturing by someone who intends to run for office (or at least use the possibility of running to boost ratings for his reality show ). The Reagan-era 50% top bracket wasn't enough to get him to move out of the country, nor was it disincentive to his empire-building. A significantly lower rate, even if it is an increase from the present still lower rate, isn't going to do it.

Don't mean to turn this into "class warfare" argument but I'd like to know, since you said the rich need to pay more, how much more do you think the rich should pay in taxes?

It depends on how it is handled. Within the framework of our current system, we need a return to the pre-Bush era rates and a closing of loopholes so that the rate assessed is the rate paid. Or if we're talking about real, significant change, a lower rate but one that treats all income equally would be preferable. There's no reason people who work for their money should be taxed at higher rates than those who live off of unearned income.

Do you really think we will ever have a system where all people pay income taxes? When 47% of the people don't, anyone that proposes such a system is committing political suicide.. We have created a society where people now expect the govt to take care of them on the backs of the wealthy, reversing that mentality will be nearly impossible, a few posts here make that obvious..

We haven't "created" that; if you look at the history of the income tax in this country the expectation that is should apply to everyone is only a very, very recent development. And it isn't one that has anything to do with the "entitlement mentality"; it is a direct consequence of our obsession with fairness to the exclusion of basic human compassion (ie, "I don't care that tripling the tax burden on Joe Six-pack will mean he can no longer afford a mortgage or medical insurance; it isn't FAIR that I have to pay more just because I have plenty.")

So basically your mad that the guy making 45K is taking advantage of the same system?

Yeah, that seems to be what it comes down to. If the wealthy person decreases their tax bill by 100K via deductions and credits that is smart planning. If the person making 45K reduces his tax bill by 3K using the same methods he's a deadbeat who has no reason to care about the direction our country is taking.

 

[leahjade]

Everyone thinks anyone who makes more than them is wealthy. I don't see why someone who has worked hard and gotten an education should be penalized by paying more than their fair share. Let's charge everyone the same 10% and we could save so much money by getting rid of the IRS altogether - take it right off the paycheck (or right off the welfare card) up front - no collecting, no filing!

 

[DVCKev]

The back and forth in this thread is getting comical at this point lol. Let's all not forget that we are in this position because of the Bush tax cuts to begin with back in 2001, combined with Bush bailing out the banks ten years later. When the tax rates were higher for everyone for example back in the 90's when we actually had a budget surplus for the first time in history this country was in much better shape because we had higher revenue. I still can't get over a complany like GE making over $14 billion in revenue AFTER expenses etc, and not paying a single dime in tax! I also don't buy the argument that if you raise taxes on the rich it will have a bad effect on jobs and the economy, our economy is already horrible and what little jobs if any get created are usually shipped overseas by multinational companies anyway. Finally the person who posted about every agency should take a 25% cut across the board is crazy imo, our education system is falling apart as it is now how would that make anything better for our kids or our country's future? How much money could we save by ending all the wars? Seems to me like a real lot. Or how about we get rid of ALL foreign aid for one single year and just take care of our own problems, I really don't think that the world will fall apart in 12 months without us funding everything that we do now in places such as Pakistan etc......I think something like that would do a miracle for our country......but would never happen unfortunately since EVERY politician in this country is on the take for the most part to special interest.......Just my $.02....

 

[Colleen27]

Everyone thinks anyone who makes more than them is wealthy. I don't see why someone who has worked hard and gotten an education should be penalized by paying more than their fair share. Let's charge everyone the same 10% and we could save so much money by getting rid of the IRS altogether - take it right off the paycheck (or right off the welfare card) up front - no collecting, no filing!

It isn't a penalty; it is an acknowledgment that there is a bare-minimum that is needed to survive. And it isn't about educated vs uneducated; That's just a way to make it a question of virtue rather than practicality. There are many educated, hard-working teachers, nurses, social workers, and others who don't earn enough to own income tax or pay only minimal amounts of income tax, and there are plenty of wealthy folks who are wealthy for no reason other than being born into the right circumstances.

 

[leahjade]

Finally the person who posted about every agency should take a 25% cut across the board is crazy imo, our education system is falling apart as it is now

You think throwing money at our education system is going to help? What a joke! Our district spends $14,000 per student per year and test scores are lower than ever. Going to and LIVING AT a state university in our area is less than that! The answer is cutting wasteful spending not taxing everyone to death. If you want to donate more of your income to the government, go right ahead but I already pay (with state, federal, local and school taxes combined) 40% of my family's income in taxes! So I don't know how much higher you can tax the middle class without having them revolt.

 

[leahjade]

our education system is falling apart as it is now

Yeah, let's throw more money at our educational system, that will work. Our district spends $14,000 per student per year (which at that price you could LIVE at a state university and get a college education) yet scores are lower than ever.
If you want to pay more taxes, you can donate to the government but as for my family with our state, local, federal and real estate taxes, we pay over 40% of our income in taxes and we can't afford to support anyone else who is not pulling their weight.

 

[Charade]

The back and forth in this thread is getting comical at this point lol. Let's all not forget that we are in this position because of the Bush tax cuts to begin with back in 2001, combined with Bush bailing out the banks ten years later. When the tax rates were higher for everyone for example back in the 90's when we actually had a budget surplus for the first time in history this country was in much better shape because we had higher revenue. I still can't get over a complany like GE making over $14 billion in revenue AFTER expenses etc, and not paying a single dime in tax! I also don't buy the argument that if you raise taxes on the rich it will have a bad effect on jobs and the economy, our economy is already horrible and what little jobs if any get created are usually shipped overseas by multinational companies anyway. Finally the person who posted about every agency should take a 25% cut across the board is crazy imo, our education system is falling apart as it is now how would that make anything better for our kids or our country's future? How much money could we save by ending all the wars? Seems to me like a real lot. Or how about we get rid of ALL foreign aid for one single year and just take care of our own problems, I really don't think that the world will fall apart in 12 months without us funding everything that we do now in places such as Pakistan etc......I think something like that would do a miracle for our country......but would never happen unfortunately since EVERY politician in this country is on the take for the most part to special interest.......Just my $.02....

I think (and I'm saying this the nicest way) you need to check history. The problem isn't so much lower taxes, it was spending. And it's spending now. The federal government spends and wastes too much money. Period.

 

[Muushka]

The back and forth in this thread is getting comical at this point lol. Let's all not forget that we are in this position because of the Bush tax cuts to begin with back in 2001, combined with Bush bailing out the banks ten years later. When the tax rates were higher for everyone for example back in the 90's when we actually had a budget surplus for the first time in history this country was in much better shape because we had higher revenue. I still can't get over a complany like GE making over $14 billion in revenue AFTER expenses etc, and not paying a single dime in tax! I also don't buy the argument that if you raise taxes on the rich it will have a bad effect on jobs and the economy, our economy is already horrible and what little jobs if any get created are usually shipped overseas by multinational companies anyway. Finally the person who posted about every agency should take a 25% cut across the board is crazy imo, our education system is falling apart as it is now how would that make anything better for our kids or our country's future? How much money could we save by ending all the wars? Seems to me like a real lot. Or how about we get rid of ALL foreign aid for one single year and just take care of our own problems, I really don't think that the world will fall apart in 12 months without us funding everything that we do now in places such as Pakistan etc......I think something like that would do a miracle for our country......but would never happen unfortunately since EVERY politician in this country is on the take for the most part to special interest.......Just my $.02....

Oh Good. We can blame Bush once again. Lol (whatever that means).

 

[DVCKev]

Yeah, let's throw more money at our educational system, that will work. Our district spends $14,000 per student per year (which at that price you could LIVE at a state university and get a college education) yet scores are lower than ever.
If you want to pay more taxes, you can donate to the government but as for my family with our state, local, federal and real estate taxes, we pay over 40% of our income in taxes and we can't afford to support anyone else who is not pulling their weight.

If that is the case then don't you think that the people at the top of your school system running it should be replaced, not meaning the teachers either? In addition cominging up with a system that ties the school student scores with how teachers get raises etc? We use a system called MCAS where I'm from that does that, it is not perfect by any stretch but it works for the most part and test scores across the state have risen even in the most poor areas. How about your state secretary of eduaction is derelict in his duties if that is the case, just a thought. I don't think because one district in the country is dysfunctional we should blatently underfund schools with absurd cuts and start laying off teachers across the nation, but with your line of thinking and just whacking off 25% of their given budgets that is EXACTLY what will happen, ya that makes sense.... Any kind of cuts have to be targeted propely to be effective, not just across the board with disregard for anything because in the end that money will just be wasted on something else like tax cuts for the rich who don't need it and give this country no benefit whatsoever when they do get it, see the Bush tax cuts circa 2001 for further info.....

 

[DVCKev]

Oh Good. We can blame Bush once again. Lol (whatever that means).

That's right, the truth NEVER goes away.....so we can hopefully learn from our past mistakes.....don't forget the bailouts of the banks which added almost a trillion to the deficit was him and Henry Paulson too....

 

[robinb]

LOL. I think we tried that already. there was a time when the only people who could vote were white males. country was still a mess.

And the "skin in the game" that some people seem to want was property ownership .

 

[sam_gordon]

Guys, let's not make this political. The mods will shutdown the thread.

 

[DVCKev]

I think (and I'm saying this the nicest way) you need to check history. The problem isn't so much lower taxes, it was spending. And it's spending now. The federal government spends and wastes too much money. Period.

Lower revenue combined with bank bailouts=what we have now. Sorry but this didn't just happen in the last two years, it's a culmination of the last 11. Where was all that "the gov't spends too much" back in '04, '05, 06 when Bush was stimulating the economy with rebate checks for everyone????? The majority of gov't programs have been steadily funded the same manner for the last 10 years, no agency short of defense and newly created homeland security has gotten significant increases over that time. Lets face it Bush tax cuts in 2001 that benefitted the rich and corporations, two wars, and Bush bank bailouts put us over the top and got us to where we are now.......so I'm saying this in the nicest way possible and thinking you should be reading some history books....

 

[robinb]

Guys, let's not make this political. The mods will shutdown the thread.

It was political from the get-go. "Fair Tax", which was mentioned in the first few posts is a very political buzz world.